Protestants, when did the Catholic Church go bad?

[Nicea325]

Circumcision was certainly intended to remove the source of corruption as Paul describes in Col 2:11

That is the focus of his comparison. Not the age of the person being circumcised. If both acts are the same in the particulars … as you argue above … then males are the only ones that are to be baptized. Yet we clearly know that is not what Paul implied.

You are including an argument from the text that Paul himself did not make.

Paul did not talk about age or gender because that was not his focus either … his focus is the corruption of the sinful nature being put off through baptism and compared it to the physical corruption removed by circumcision.

The other quotes of Jesus and Peter that I posted earlier provide the instructions on how to participate in the “spiritual circumcision” by a cognitive choice to repent and be baptized.

Show me ONE verse stating full immersion is the ONLY valid method? You have yet to show me a single verse.

Did millions of Jewish baby boys make a conscious-decision to be circumcised after 8 days?

 

[1voice]

Show me ONE verse stating full immersion is the ONLY valid method? You have yet to show me a single verse.

As I said earlier. Arguing that your point is valid based on the fact that it is not found in the Bible is not logical.

The Greek word transliterated as ‘baptism’ (which is included in a number of Bible verses) defines the act.
It was the only word that was considered valid enough to describe the act in the Bible.

You can redefine it if you choose … but it does not change the original meaning.

As I posted above:
Baptizo retained its central meaning without change from the earliest age of Greek literature for the next two thousand years! The burden of proof is upon someone else to find a single occurrence where the word has any other meaning!! So, there is NO example in any portion of all Greek literature where baptizo (or its related forms) signifies a partial application of water by effusion (pouring) or sprinkling.

 

[Nicea325]

As I said earlier. Arguing that your point is valid based on the fact that it is not found in the Bible is not logical.

The Greek word transliterated as ‘baptism’ (which is included in a number of Bible verses) defines the act.
It was the only word that was considered valid enough to describe the act in the Bible.

You can redefine it if you choose … but it does not change the original meaning.

As I posted above:
Baptizo retained its central meaning without change from the earliest age of Greek literature for the next two thousand years! The burden of proof is upon someone else to find a single occurrence where the word has any other meaning!! So, there is NO example in any portion of all Greek literature where baptizo (or its related forms) signifies a partial application of water by effusion (pouring) or sprinkling.

No! Burden of proof is on you and I have challenged you on it.

Good one…good dodge there 1voice. My point is VERY valid and LOGICAL. Listen to what you are saying and believe. You are stating:

Baptism is** ONLY **valid through full immersion,all other methods are void.

Thus your argument therefore must be supported by at least one or several biblical verses. Do you get it?

So…show me where it states: Baptism is ONLY valid through full immersion?

You still did not answer:

Did millions of Jewish baby boys make a conscious-decision to be circumcised after 8 days?

 

[Ubenedictus]

As I said earlier. Arguing that your point is valid based on the fact that it is not found in the Bible is not logical.

The Greek word transliterated as ‘baptism’ (which is included in a number of Bible verses) defines the act.
It was the only word that was considered valid enough to describe the act in the Bible.

You can redefine it if you choose … but it does not change the original meaning.

As I posted above:
Baptizo retained its central meaning without change from the earliest age of Greek literature for the next two thousand years! The burden of proof is upon someone else to find a single occurrence where the word has any other meaning!! So, there is NO example in any portion of all Greek literature where baptizo (or its related forms) signifies a partial application of water by effusion (pouring) or sprinkling.

would you like to inform me about the baptism of paul and philip’s eunuch?

 

[1voice]

Did millions of Jewish baby boys make a conscious-decision to be circumcised after 8 days?

… No, But Jesus and Peter both gave those who were physically circumcised the opportunity to make a conscious decision to accept spiritual circumcision as well.

 

[Nicea325]

… No, But Jesus and Peter both gave those who were physically circumcised the opportunity to make a conscious decision to accept spiritual circumcision as well.

Oh but wait a minute…you said one must make a conscious-decision in order to be baptized…the ONLY method according to you and FULLY immersed,not buts or ifs. But you make exceptions for those already circumcised? Was their circumcision void according to your standards?

 

[1voice]

No! Burden of proof is on you and I have challenged you on it.

Good one…good dodge there 1voice. My point is VERY valid and LOGICAL. Listen to what you are saying and believe. You are stating:

Baptism is** ONLY **valid through full immersion,all other methods are void.

Mormons use the same line of logic that you are perusing. They do it all the time. Example: We all existed as spirit beings/ sons of god… prior to this human existence based on the fact that it does not specifically say otherwise in the Bible. … Same line of reasoning … Different subject.

It is not my concern or my goal to convince you. I presented the evidence … You rejected it … No big deal.

The Bible is clear and the transliteration of the Greek word for baptism is clear. If you think that something else is just as true because it is not specifically mentioned in the Bible, that is your choice.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

The word baptize is taken directly from the Greek… there was no english equivalent. Therefore It was not translated … it is transliterated… that is … taken directly from the original language.

BAPTIZO – STRONG’S GREEK DICTIONARY, 907
baptizw baptizo bap-tid’-zo

1. to immerse, submerge;
2. to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet)

---

Best to start off with a quality Greek dictionary:

perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dbapti%2Fzw

 

[pablope]

As I said earlier. Arguing that your point is valid based on the fact that it is not found in the Bible is not logical.

The Greek word transliterated as ‘baptism’ (which is included in a number of Bible verses) defines the act.
It was the only word that was considered valid

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

No! Burden of proof is on you and I have challenged you on it.

Good one…good dodge there 1voice. My point is VERY valid and LOGICAL. Listen to what you are saying and believe. You are stating:

Baptism is** ONLY **valid through full immersion,all other methods are void.

Thus your argument therefore must be supported by at least one or several biblical verses. Do you get it?

So…show me where it states: Baptism is ONLY valid through full immersion?

You still did not answer:

Did millions of Jewish baby boys make a conscious-decision to be circumcised after 8 days?

Hey Nicea325, I’m done with 1voice on this issue. He will never be able to answer the questions put to him because he can’t back up his view on this from the bible.
Nothing but pure opinion on his part…

Matthew

 

[Dave_Noonan]

Best to start off with a quality Greek dictionary:

perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dbapti%2Fzw

Also, for baptizo as simply washing take a look at these texts:

Mark 7:4; Judith 12:7; Sir. 34:30

And for baptizo as dipping and sprinkling here’s an interesting example to think about:

Josephus, Antiquities 4.81.

 

[Publisher]

Baptism has it’s origins in the Jewish “mikvah”…“ritual washing”…hands, feet, face…ritual items

 

[1voice]

Quote: 1voice
As I posted above:
Baptizo retained its central meaning without change from the earliest age of Greek literature for the next two thousand years! The burden of proof is upon someone else to find a single occurrence where the word has any other meaning!! So, there is NO example in any portion of all Greek literature where baptizo (or its related forms) signifies a partial application of water by effusion (pouring) or sprinkling.

But we are not speaking of Greek literature.

I am not disputing the fact that the definition of baptism began to include sprinkling and pouring of water, over time, in the CC.

“The practice of pouring instead of immersing appears to have started
as early as the second century. Occasionally water was poured over a
sick person instead of immersing them into water. Gradually pouring
gained more acceptance until in the Roman Catholic Church (but not
the Greek Orthodox Church) the pouring of water replaced immersion
in the 14th century.”
(“Christian Baptism” by Alec Gilmore 1959.
“Did Jesus Command Immersion?” College Press. “Encyclopedia
Britannica” 1890.)

 

[Dave_Noonan]

Quote: 1voice
As I posted above:
Baptizo retained its central meaning without change from the earliest age of Greek literature for the next two thousand years! The burden of proof is upon someone else to find a single occurrence where the word has any other meaning!! So, there is NO example in any portion of all Greek literature where baptizo (or its related forms) signifies a partial application of water by effusion (pouring) or sprinkling.

So what didn’t you like about my examples?

 

[Lochias]

Oh but wait a minute…you said one must make a conscious-decision in order to be baptized…the ONLY method according to you and FULLY immersed,not buts or ifs. But you make exceptions for those already circumcised? Was their circumcision void according to your standards?

Still waiting to hear the answer to this one. 1voice, ya there? What say you?

 

[JonNC]

reluctant-messenger.com/didache.htm

Jon

 

[1voice]

Also, for baptizo as simply washing take a look at these texts:

Mark 7:4; Judith 12:7; Sir. 34:30

And for baptizo as dipping and sprinkling here’s an interesting example to think about:

Josephus, Antiquities 4.81.

BAPTO – STRONG’S GREEK DICTIONARY, 911[1]
baptw bapto bap’-to

1. a primary verb; to whelm, i.e. cover wholly with a fluid; in the New Testament only in a qualified or special sense, i.e. (literally) to moisten (a part of one’s person), or (by implication) to stain (as with dye):
2. –dip.

We see that there are two definitions for the root word ‘bapto’… one is to ‘cover wholly with a fluid’ and the other definition is to ‘dip’.

There are only three places in the Greek text where the word ‘bapto’ is found and in each case this word was translated into English as ‘dip’.

Luke 16:24 (KJV) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

John 13:26 (KJV) Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.

Revelation 19:13 (KJV) And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

---

Thw word translated as Baptism in the New testament is
baptiðzw -

to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one’s self, bathe
to overwhelm
Not to be confused with 911, bapto. The clearest example that shows the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be ‘dipped’ (bapto) into boiling water and then ‘baptised’ (baptizo) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change.

studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=907

 

[Dave_Noonan]

BAPTO – STRONG’S GREEK DICTIONARY, 911[1]
baptw bapto bap’-to

1. a primary verb; to whelm, i.e. cover wholly with a fluid; in the New Testament only in a qualified or special sense, i.e. (literally) to moisten (a part of one’s person), or (by implication) to stain (as with dye):
2. –dip.

We see that there are two definitions for the root word ‘bapto’… one is to ‘cover wholly with a fluid’ and the other definition is to ‘dip’.

There are only three places in the Greek text where the word ‘bapto’ is found and in each case this word was translated into English as ‘dip’.

Luke 16:24 (KJV) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

John 13:26 (KJV) Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.

Revelation 19:13 (KJV) And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

---

Thw word translated as Baptism in the New testament is
baptiðzw -

to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one’s self, bathe
to overwhelm
Not to be confused with 911, bapto. The clearest example that shows the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be ‘dipped’ (bapto) into boiling water and then ‘baptised’ (baptizo) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change.

studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=907

That’s all well and good, but those weren’t the examples that I cited; the examples that I listed use baptizo and I’m curious what you thought about them. I think perhaps you’re confusing what a word can mean with what a word must necessarily mean.

 

[1voice]

And for baptizo as dipping and sprinkling here’s an interesting example to think about:

Josephus, Antiquities 4.81.

I did a search and nothing specific came up … Only his general works … Do you have a link?

 

[Dave_Noonan]

I did a search and nothing specific came up … Only his general works … Do you have a link?

No I just looked it up the old fashioned way. “Antiquities” and “Jewish Wars” are Josephus’s most famous works. This is from the former. Try “Jewish Antiquities” or “Antiquities of the Jews.”