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Lampo
Guest
I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that the thief needed further purification, that’s all.
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qui_est_ce
Guest
It’s not a stretch.
But there are two other scenerios:
1- Baptism by blood
2- He repented and then died. So he died without sin.
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Lampo
Guest
That’s true. Thanks qui.
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byoby
Guest
So we are to have faith in the Magesterium?
How can we know that what they propose is true if it is not found in scripture?
By what standard are we as believers supposed to test all things?
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Orionthehunter
Guest
You alread have relied upon the Magisterium as they canonized Scripture.
How do you know that they properly canonized the Bible? If they can err on Teaching, what makes you think they couldn’t air in the selection of the books fo the Bible?
We test things against the Word revealed in Tradition, Scripture, and Teaching.
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guanophore
Guest
Am I losing it, or did you actually ADD a word to scripture to make it mean what you think ought to mean?
Do you also add to John, “this symbolizes my body”?
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Mannyfit75
Guest
Am I losing it, or did you actually ADD a word to scripture to make it mean what you think ought to mean?
Do you also add to John, “this symbolizes my body”?****
His exegesis is wrong. Baptism does save you.
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byoby
Guest
I believe that they recognized that books were inspired.
There are some who think they have errored regarding some old test. books. I have not researched enough to have my own opinion.
Should not we test Tradition and Teachings against Scripture?
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byoby
Guest
Am I losing it, or did you actually ADD a word to scripture to make it mean what you think ought to mean?
Do you also add to John, “this symbolizes my body”?****
This was quoted from an NIV translation. If it is not correct then shame on me.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
The King James Translations says it differently;
21: The like figure whereunto even** baptism doth also now save us** (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
The Douay Rheims Bible:
21 Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Another NIV Bible says it differently to:
NIV Bible:
and this **water symbolizes **baptism that **now saves **you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge. of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Source for NIV Bible: ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=1+Peter+3&niv=yes#en-NIV-30430
It said specifically water is symbolizes baptism itself, and that baptism saves. It doesn’t say baptism is symbolic.
It is apparently, you aren’t reading this passage correctly, byoby.
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byoby
Guest
I believe that the baptism that Christ underwent for us is what saves us.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
We are baptized because the Jesus directed his Apostle before his Ascension the following:
And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.- Matthew 28:18-20.
Baptism is necessary. It is not symbolic. In the Books of Acts, Peter say,
But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts of the Apostle, Chapter 2 verse 38
Even though Cornelius himself received the Holy Spirit, he was baptized. Christians must be baptized because through baptism, we are saved. Jesus save us through baptism.
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byoby
Guest
What does the water symbolize?
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qui_est_ce
Guest
The writings, teachings, and practices of the Early Church Fathers, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, St. Augustine, etc.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
water is symbolizes baptism, and if you read the next line baptism saves you.
Here is the verse again:
NIV Bible:
21and** this water symbolizes baptism** that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge.
I find the NIV Bible remain faithful that baptism does save.
Other translations also says baptism saves you also, or save us also.
Regardless, all the translation I found, does show baptism saves.
It is** you who interpret the passage completely different. You are looking into the context that is not there. You say baptism doesn’t save, but the Bible says it does**.
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agangbern
Guest
byoby, yes, the water which was the flood during the time of Noah symbolizes baptism. But it does not say that baptism is simply a symbol.Originally Posted by byoby View Post
1 Peter 3:21 TNIV • Read this chapter
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. Or but an appeal to God for a clear conscience] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Am I losing it, or did you actually ADD a word to scripture to make it mean what you think ought to mean?
Do you also add to John, “this symbolizes my body”?
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Orionthehunter
Guest
The Magisterium not only recognized the books and letters we now have in the Bible as inspired but they rejected others which were claimed to be inspired. And before that, the Magisterium collected various letters and texts that were being read at the Mass which were ultimately compiled into Epistles, selected some, rejected others. The Bible did not fall out of the air. It is the result of hundreds of years of selection via the Mass and work of the Magisterium.
Teaching, Tradition, and Scripture all flow out of the same filter: The Magisterium of the Catholic Church. And, as they are all from Christ, they can all be tested against each other. He is the Truth and there is never any inconsistency.
Here are some stubborn facts:
*]The Mass predated Scripture
*]The Church predated Scripture
*]The Magisterium predated Scripture.
*]Scripture flowed out of the Mass, Church and Magisterium.
*]The Epistles are letters written and have a heavy preponderance of correction and admonishment of improper teaching. If the Mass was incorrect or the Church’s structure of Authority was incorrect, don’t you think it would have been pointed out?
*]None of the letters said “Don’t do the Mass that we taught you, disregard our Authority (as Church and Magisterium), and interpret Tradition, Teaching and these letters however you darn well please.”
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byoby
Guest
I never said that baptism does not save, I said water baptism does not save. The question is which baptism? Sorry if I led you to believe otherwise.
Noah was saved because he had faith before the flood when God instructed him to build the Arc. He was then Baptised through water which symbolizes Christ death and resurrection (Correct me if I am wrong). Men were eliminated because of the lack of faith in God, not because they were not baptised. It is the baptism of Christ that saves us, not the water baptism but the baptism he underwent on the cross.
I am in no way saying that Christians should not get Water Baptised, or to not love your neighbor as yourself, or any other command Jesus gave us. In the bible, baptism always followed belief. If it is the physical act of water baptism that saves then in theory we could by force save someone who does not want to be with Christ. I believe that your faith produces the good work, not that your good work produces faith. This is plainly shown in the bible by the Pharisees (spelling?) and Scribes who did good works of the law without faith or had faith in their own good works and were condemned.
If water baptism always followed belief and people were saved without water baptism then can I assume that people are saved by their belief and faith in God?
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byoby
Guest
The mass predates the old testament scriptures?
The Holy Spirit flowed out of men of God’s choosing to write His Word, not the Mass or Magisterium. An argument could be made for the Church which all Patriarchs, Prophets, and Apostles are members although we might have a different definition of Church.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
water baptism does save. I already pointed in Scripture that it does.
Noah was saved and Peter makes a comparison the water in Noah’s time and compare it to water baptism, “which now saves you also.”
If someone who doesn’t want to be baptized in water, he is going against Jesus Christ. Jesus specifically instructed the Apostles these words.
And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.- Matthew 28:18-20.
No one is being force into being baptized. Anyone who is baptized always require full consent from the adult. Any Non-Catholic Adult who were baptized fully consented to be baptized.
Second, why shouldn’t a Christian be baptized? Jesus told his Apostles do it. Denying baptism to someone is breaking Jesus own commandment he gave to his Apostle.
Grace moves us to live by faith. We live by faith not by sight. We also live out our faith by loving God first, then our neighbors.
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