Protestants: Where is the Bible in the Bible?

[po18guy]

Thank you everyone for responding to my thoughts. I do not have time to respond to all. I will say that we probably have different definitions for the word “Church”. I believe the “True Church” is the entire body of believers who have been saved through faith in Jesus as our eternal atoning sacrifice and follow his commands as written down for us by the Apostles in the Bible. We are all members of the True Church if we adhere to what the Holy Spirit inspired men to record in the bible regardless if it is learned by reading or spoken orally.I believe that what I know is Apostolic teachings because I learn from the writings of the Apostles. I realize that the early church had oral teachings that were passed on through tradition because they did not have the new testament as we do today as it was a work in progress. Today we do have these writings such as Romans, Hebrews, etc. that do contain what was being taught in the early church.

I would ask where is Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox in the Bible? Should not we just call ourselves Christians?

You are certainly on the right track. Christ founded one church. Read John 6, especially 6:53, and then 1 Corinthians 11. All of the twelve, Paul, the Early Church Fathers and every generation since in the one church have celebrated the physical presence of Christ in the Eucharist-Christ Himself instituted the Sacrament. Why did he allow many disciples to leave Him after they said in John 6 “this is a hard saying. Who can believe it?” If it was only a belief, a saying, they would certainly not have left, because they embraced all of His other controversial and counter-intuitive teachings.

Remember that forgiveness was not in the Jewish psyche-taking your adversary to court was. “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison” (Matthew 5:25). “Eye for eye” was not a law - it was a limitation on the revenge that could be sought under the law. Many wanted two eyes for one, two hands for one. Christ preached forgiveness which was completely against the very fabric of their beings. If his disciples could accept something so revolutionary as that, they could easily have accepted a figurative eucharist, a “representative” eating of the Body. But it wasn’t figurative. It really was and is His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. That is why we have the Eucharist, that is why I am Catholic. I have no where else to go. The Lord lead me here and offered me His Body and Blood. I cannot refuse if I want to have life within me.

Christ’s peace be always with you.

 

[Orionthehunter]

What about the thief on the cross? He obviously was not baptised in the visible sense by water but was told by Jesus that today he would be with him in paradise.

Hello,

It’s called Baptism of desire.

First of all, Christ being God can save in extra-ordinary ways. But, He gave us the normative way revealed by Tradition, Scripture, and Teaching for us to join the family of God. This normative way is Baptism. This is how we are taught/told to do it.

I disagree with the potential implication or inference of JMJ that you may get (not JMJ’s intent). The Church hopes and trusts in the mercy of God that He will save those who come to Him in an extra-ordinary way (outside of Baptism). Christ is so clear in Scripture that we are to be Baptized. We are to follow and do as He says.

But we know there are people who do not get Baptized. We also see in the good thief that Christ will save people not baptized in the normative way. Thus, we trust and hope that good people who lived as good as they knew to follow God’s law and died desiring eternal bliss with God will be recieved into His Kingdom. But, we don’t know for sure. We just trust, hope and pray. Then in a way that we can comprehend this extra-ordinary salvation, the Church refers to the desire of the person to be with God as “Baptism by Desire.” We do not however assert that this desire grants on one the graces that come with Baptism.

God is God. He is the Judge. We do not have the capacity to know to whom He will grant Divine Mercy. This is God’s exclusive perogative.

 

[byoby]

First of all, Christ being God can save in extra-ordinary ways. But, He gave us the normative way revealed by Tradition, Scripture, and Teaching for us to join the family of God. This normative way is Baptism. This is how we are taught/told to do it.

I disagree with the potential implication or inference of JMJ that you may get (not JMJ’s intent). The Church hopes and trusts in the mercy of God that He will save those who come to Him in an extra-ordinary way (outside of Baptism). Christ is so clear in Scripture that we are to be Baptized. We are to follow and do as He says.

But we know there are people who do not get Baptized. We also see in the good thief that Christ will save people not baptized in the normative way. Thus, we trust and hope that good people who lived as good as they knew to follow God’s law and died desiring eternal bliss with God will be recieved into His Kingdom. But, we don’t know for sure. We just trust, hope and pray. Then in a way that we can comprehend this extra-ordinary salvation, the Church refers to the desire of the person to be with God as “Baptism by Desire.” We do not however assert that this desire grants on one the graces that come with Baptism.

God is God. He is the Judge. We do not have the capacity to know to whom He will grant Divine Mercy. This is God’s exclusive perogative.

1 Peter 3:21 TNIV • Read this chapter
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. Or but an appeal to God for a clear conscience] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Water Baptism of itself cannot save, it is merely a response or a sign. What saves is your belief and trust in Jesus, not by any work so that nobody can boast.

 

[guanophore]

What about the thief on the cross? He obviously was not baptised in the visible sense by water but was told by Jesus that today he would be with him in paradise.

Jesus, as the founder of the sacraments, is not bound by them. He can baptize whomever He please, however He desires. The thief was undergoing a baptism of blood and suffering. When we are united with him in a death like His…

Rom 6:5

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his."

The rest of us, not having been crucified along with Him, join into His death through water baptism.

 

[guanophore]

1 Peter 3:21 TNIV • Read this chapter
and this water symbolizes **baptism that now saves you **also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. Or but an appeal to God for a clear conscience] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Water Baptism of itself cannot save, it is merely a response or a sign. What saves is your belief and trust in Jesus, not by any work so that nobody can boast.

How can you read this, and not see that baptism saves? Of course, it is belief and trust in Jesus, but what a sacrament like baptism does is bring God’s grace togethe with man’s faith in a visible sign. This is why the sacraments are said to be salvific. We are saved by grace, through faith, and this is what happens in the sacraments. Faith meets grace. It is not a “work” in the sense that it is a “deed of the law”, but it is a Sacred Work, which means it is an obedience to Jesus’ commandment that proceeds from faith.

 

[Orionthehunter]

1 Peter 3:21 TNIV • Read this chapter
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. Or but an appeal to God for a clear conscience] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Water Baptism of itself cannot save, it is merely a response or a sign. What saves is your belief and trust in Jesus, not by any work so that nobody can boast.

How can you read this, and not see that baptism saves? Of course, it is belief and trust in Jesus, but what a sacrament like baptism does is bring God’s grace togethe with man’s faith in a visible sign. This is why the sacraments are said to be salvific. We are saved by grace, through faith, and this is what happens in the sacraments. Faith meets grace. It is not a “work” in the sense that it is a “deed of the law”, but it is a Sacred Work, which means it is an obedience to Jesus’ commandment that proceeds from faith.

guanofore said it well. Whenever I see words as I highlighted above, it makes my heart sad. It infers a profound denigration of the gift of Grace and an idea that one just has to check a box in order to be invited to share eternity with God. To check the box, one just trusts and believes in Jesus Christ. Well, checking the box appears to me to be the most cynical of a “work”. God made me to know, serve and love Him. And, in His perfect Love for me, He promises to give me gifts of grace to know, serve and love Him.

The words it is “merely a response or sign” makes it nothing more than something that I do (a “work”) instead of acknowledging what God says it is- a gift of the Holy Spirit to help us to live out our Christian Vocation, a SUPERNATURAL disposition that enables me to live with God, to act by His love. It is almost like byoby treats it like an “application” where all I have to do is fill in the blanks and send it in. And by doing so, God will send me a “license” that says “Saved”.

 

[agangbern]

Water Baptism of itself cannot save, it is merely a response or a sign. What saves is your belief and trust in Jesus, not by any work so that nobody can boast.

No! It is not one’s belief or trust in Jesus that saves him. It is Jesus Himself who saves the person, not the person’s belief alone. Even if we think we trust in Jesus, it is still Jesus who has the final say whether or not our trust meets His expectation. We still need to implore for his generosity. Salvation is still a gift.

For what specific reason does He save Him? Because of Love! And what does belief and trust in Jesus mean? It means to hearken to all His words.
And what are some of His words? One of His words is this: ***“I tell you the truth, unless a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” ***

He also said, " I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you."

Furthermore, He said, “*Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”/I]

One says he believes and trust in Jesus? Then He must obey all His words.*

 

[byoby]

guanofore said it well. Whenever I see words as I highlighted above, it makes my heart sad. It infers a profound denigration of the gift of Grace and an idea that one just has to check a box in order to be invited to share eternity with God. To check the box, one just trusts and believes in Jesus Christ. Well, checking the box appears to me to be the most cynical of a “work”. God made me to know, serve and love Him. And, in His perfect Love for me, He promises to give me gifts of grace to know, serve and love Him.

The words it is “merely a response or sign” makes it nothing more than something that I do (a “work”) instead of acknowledging what God says it is- a gift of the Holy Spirit to help us to live out our Christian Vocation, a SUPERNATURAL disposition that enables me to live with God, to act by His love. It is almost like byoby treats it like an “application” where all I have to do is fill in the blanks and send it in. And by doing so, God will send me a “license” that says “Saved”.

Can you see how someone might think that they have checked the baptism box so they are saved without having to pledge their conscience to Christ and follow his example? I see the belief that baptism saves as part of the application that you speak of.

It is not the act or water that saves or washing of dirt from the body, Jesus saves us regarding our conscience and only God can be the judge of that. Water Baptism is a symbol of Christ Baptism that now saves us, his work completed once and for all. I have been baptised and who would not want to when the opportunity is available but I do also realize that this is not what saved me, it was Christ and His free gift that I must accept and have a response of conscience. I believe you have stumbled over the stumbling block if you believe otherwise.

There are examples in the Bible both Old & New Testament of Saints being saved without water baptism.

 

[po18guy]

Can you see how someone might think that they have checked the baptism box so they are saved without having to pledge their conscience to Christ and follow his example? I see the belief that baptism saves as part of the application that you speak of.

It is not the act or water that saves or washing of dirt from the body, Jesus saves us regarding our conscience and only God can be the judge of that. Water Baptism is a symbol of Christ Baptism that now saves us, his work completed once and for all. I have been baptised and who would not want to when the opportunity is available but I do also realize that this is not what saved me, it was Christ and His free gift that I must accept and have a response of conscience. I believe you have stumbled over the stumbling block if you believe otherwise.

There are examples in the Bible both Old & New Testament of Saints being saved without water baptism.

We are saved solely through His grace. For, many will call out “Lord, Lord” and will not be saved. He will answer, “I tell you, I do not know where you are from”. This. evem though they had faith in Christ. So, more than just a profession is needed. James 2:26 “For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead” How can we expect entrance to Heaven with dead faith? You are ever closer to the Kingsom of God.

Christ’s peace.

 

[po18guy]

1 Peter 3:21 TNIV • Read this chapter
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. Or but an appeal to God for a clear conscience] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, Water Baptism of itself cannot save, it is merely a response or a sign. What saves is your belief and trust in Jesus, not by any work so that nobody can boast.

We boast only in the Lord. The cleansing of original sin via baptism is entrance to the Body of Christ-He made this clear to Nicodemus in John 3:3-5… But, it’s not that easy. More is required. Luke 8:20-21 (Someone told him), “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.” He replied, “My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.” This is where James 2:26 applies: “So also faith without works is dead”.

Why must you persevere to the end to be saved?
Matthew 10:22 “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved”.
Matthew 24:13 “…but he who stands firm to the end will be saved”.
Mark 13:13 “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved”.

Why did Paul admonish us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling?
Philippians 2:12 “Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling…”

Anyone who believes in a simple exclamation of faith is greatly deceived. Our lives are a process of conversion, not a single point-in-time sound bite.

Christ’s peace.

 

[MariaG]

Can you see how someone might think that they have checked the baptism box so they are saved without having to pledge their conscience to Christ and follow his example? I see the belief that baptism saves as part of the application that you speak of.

Yes, some may think that, but it is not the teaching of the Catholic Church that baptism, divorced from faith, saves.

It is not the act or water that saves or washing of dirt from the body, Jesus saves us regarding our conscience and only God can be the judge of that. Water Baptism is a symbol of Christ Baptism that now saves us, his work completed once and for all.

But baptism is much more than just a symbol. It is God’s grace made visable. Just as God can heal through people by laying on of hands, God can wash away original sin and any personal sin through baptism. Scripture has many examples of God healing people through people and even objects. (I can provide a list if you are unfamilar with them ) I can also provide the many scripture verses where we believe that baptism is regenerative and not just symbolic. Even Luther believed that baptism is regenerative.

I have been baptised and who would not want to when the opportunity is available but I do also realize that this is not what saved me, it was Christ and His free gift that I must accept and have a response of conscience. I believe you have stumbled over the stumbling block if you believe otherwise.

You seem to think that we are divorcing baptism from faith and this is just not the case. From an adult perspective, I do not think we differ. The difference is that we believe God came to save all, including the infants and the free gift of salvation is available to all no matter what the age.

There are examples in the Bible both Old & New Testament of Saints being saved without water baptism

And the Catholic Church teaches this. Again, there is water baptism which is the “normative” for God to give us His Saving Grace, but there is also baptism of desire and of blood.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Orionthehunter]

From byoby: Can you see how someone might think that they have checked the baptism box so they are saved without having to pledge their conscience to Christ and follow his example? I see the belief that baptism saves as part of the application that you speak of.

No I can’t. The Catholic Church teaches that baptism is a means to become a child of God and to recieve supernatural graces with which to be better able to respond to God’s call and to live according to His will. The Catholic Church does not teach that Baptism is what saves us.

From Byoby: It is not the act or water that saves or washing of dirt from the body, Jesus saves us regarding our conscience and only God can be the judge of that.

The Church teaches that only by the Mercy of Christ are we saved. He is the Judge.

From Byoby: Water Baptism is a symbol of Christ Baptism that now saves us, his work completed once and for all.

Where does the Bible say that Baptism is a symbol? I can give you multiple verses that it is more than a symbol.

From Byoby: I have been baptised and **who would not want to when the opportunity **is available but I do also realize that this is not what saved me, it was Christ and His free gift that I must accept and have a response of conscience. I believe you have stumbled over the stumbling block if you believe otherwise.

Why would you want to be baptized if it is only a symbol? To boast?

Catholics believe that Christ is our Savior. Where is our stumbling block?

From Byoby: There are examples in the Bible both Old & New Testament of Saints being saved without water baptism.

And your point? Just because God chooses extra-ordinary (or outside the ordinary) path to salvation doesn’t mean that He doesn’t desire us to recieve Baptism and the actual and salvific graces it contains.

Additionally, He might be offended by someone who arrogantly describes this normative gift of Graces as a mere symbol.

 

[byoby]

Additionally, He might be offended by someone who arrogantly describes this normative gift of Graces as a mere symbol.

1 Peter 3:21 TNIV • Read this chapter
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. Or but an appeal to God for a clear conscience] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

 

[Mannyfit75]

1 Peter 3:21 TNIV • Read this chapter
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. Or but an appeal to God for a clear conscience] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Water Baptism of itself cannot save, it is merely a response or a sign. What saves is your belief and trust in Jesus, not by any work so that nobody can boast.

Are you blind? The passage clearly states baptism now saves you. It does say water symbolizes baptism but it does not deny that baptism saves.

Let me pull out some Biblical text regarding this passage to include other translations.

21 **Whereunto baptism **being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 3:21 (Duoay Rheims Catholic Bible).

21 Baptism, which correspond to this, now saves you, not as to remove dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for clear conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (RSV Bible).

This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God 7 for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (New American Bible).

21The like figure whereunto even baptism **doth also now save us **(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
(KJV Bible)

1 Peter 3:21 (New King James Version)

21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

If you look at the previous verse 20 it says,

who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is eight persons, were saved through water.

The passage continues in verse 21,

“Baptism, which correspond to this, now saves you…”

We can’t forget what Jesus said himself regarding baptism.

Jesus said, “Unless you are **born again of water and Spirit **you cannot enter the kingdom of God” (John 3:5).

Baptism is also prophecized by the Prophet Ezekiel said Ezekiel 36:25-28.

I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a** new heart and place a new spirit within you**, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you and make you live by my statutes, careful to observe my decrees. You shall live in the land I gave your fathers; you shall be my people, and I will be your God.

 

[byoby]

Are you blind? The passage clearly states baptism now saves you. It does say water symbolizes baptism but it does not deny that baptism saves.

Let me pull out some Biblical text regarding this passage to include other translations.

21 **Whereunto baptism **being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 3:21 (Duoay Rheims Catholic Bible).

21 Baptism, which correspond to this, now saves you, not as to remove dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for clear conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (RSV Bible).

This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God 7 for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (New American Bible).

21The like figure whereunto even baptism **doth also now save us **(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
(KJV Bible)

1 Peter 3:21 (New King James Version)

21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

If you look at the previous verse 20 it says,

who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is eight persons, were saved through water.

The passage continues in verse 21,

“Baptism, which correspond to this, now saves you…”

We can’t forget what Jesus said himself regarding baptism.

Jesus said, “Unless you are **born again of water and Spirit **you cannot enter the kingdom of God” (John 3:5).

Baptism is also prophecized by the Prophet Ezekiel said Ezekiel 36:25-28.

I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a** new heart and place a new spirit within you**, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you and make you live by my statutes, careful to observe my decrees. You shall live in the land I gave your fathers; you shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Water baptism is symbolic of the baptism of Christ. It is by his death and ressurection that we are saved not the washing of dirt from our body.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Water baptism is symbolic of the baptism of Christ. It is by his death and ressurection that we are saved not the washing of dirt from our body.

That’s not what the Peter said. He did say “Baptism now saves you.” If you paid any attention to the commentary I made concerning the previous verse. It clearly shows that baptism saves.

Read verse 20 before reading verse 21.

It reads,

who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is eight persons, were saved through water

which is followed by,

Baptism, which correspond to this, now saves you, not as to remove dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for clear conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

You are reading into the verse that is not here. Your exegesis is completely erroneous on this verse.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Water baptism is symbolic of the baptism of Christ. It is by his death and ressurection that we are saved not the washing of dirt from our body.

Where did anyone say Baptism washes dirt from the body? The only reference to dirt that I see here is in your quote from 1Peter 3:21 Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 3:21

What is the examination of good conscience? It is conforming ourselves to God’s will after we have been washed clean of Original Sin

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

First of all, Christ being God can save in extra-ordinary ways. But, He gave us the normative way revealed by Tradition, Scripture, and Teaching for us to join the family of God. This normative way is Baptism. This is how we are taught/told to do it.

I disagree with the potential implication or inference of JMJ that you may get (not JMJ’s intent). The Church hopes and trusts in the mercy of God that He will save those who come to Him in an extra-ordinary way (outside of Baptism). Christ is so clear in Scripture that we are to be Baptized. We are to follow and do as He says.

But we know there are people who do not get Baptized. We also see in the good thief that Christ will save people not baptized in the normative way. Thus, we trust and hope that good people who lived as good as they knew to follow God’s law and died desiring eternal bliss with God will be recieved into His Kingdom. But, we don’t know for sure. We just trust, hope and pray. Then in a way that we can comprehend this extra-ordinary salvation, the Church refers to the desire of the person to be with God as “Baptism by Desire.” We do not however assert that this desire grants on one the graces that come with Baptism.

God is God. He is the Judge. We do not have the capacity to know to whom He will grant Divine Mercy. This is God’s exclusive perogative.

Nope, I don’t want anyone to think that they don’t need to be Baptized. Unfortunately, it’s next to impossible for me to guarantee that someone won’t misunderstand or misinterpret what I say or write.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Hello,

Nope, I don’t want anyone to think that they don’t need to be Baptized. Unfortunately, it’s next to impossible for me to guarantee that someone won’t misunderstand or misinterpret what I say or write.

I knew that JMJ. You were making an important point that needed to be understood. But, in an effort to forestall, the argument “if Baptism isn’t absolutely required for Salvation, why do it?” I tried to give the answer.

 

[byoby]

Can we agree on these statements?

(1) God can, has, and will save people who have a proper response (Faith) of conscience and truly repents of sins without the physical act of water baptism.

(2) Every person who has been baptised in water will not be saved.

I can see how not getting baptised in water might disqualify someone because it may show a lack of response of conscience but does not God know our heart? that if the opportunity presented itself the believer would get baptised? What if the opportunity could not arise such as a conversion on a deserted island where there is no other Christian or person to perform the baptism or in the desert where there is no water.

Can you perform a baptism on yourself?