Protestants: Where is the Bible in the Bible?

[justasking4]

Catholic Seminary. Take your pick. Got 7-10 years?

Can you give me 4-5 Traditions in the first 500 years?

 

[Lampo]

Yes. Otherwise you leave yourself open to all kinds of false ideas and speculations.

No. However, if we needed to have some support for this then we would need something to support this claim. When great claims are being made like the assumption of Mary or her being queen of heaven then some evidence is going to be needed. Without it all you have is speculations.

So when I die and if my son passes it on to his children and so forth, somewhere this story stops being true?

 

[Singinbeauty]

Oops, you misinterpreted the meaning I was trying to convey.(sounds familiar…kinda like sola scripturists)

The STORY is true - me at 5 years old calling my dad a heathen.

But just because those men SAY that Mary was assumed and it was handed down as oral tradition doesn’t actually mean it happened. That is the point I was trying to make.

 

[Lampo]

Without it all you have is speculations.

Sounds like you are calling a lot of the ECF idiots!

“As the most glorious Mother of Christ, our Savior and God and the giver of life and immortality, has been endowed with life by him, she has received an eternal incorruptibility of the body together with him who has raised her up from the tomb and has taken her up to himself in a way known only to him.” Modestus of Jerusalem, Encomium in dormitionnem Sanctissimae Dominae nostrae Deiparae semperque Virginis Mariae (PG 86-II,3306),(ante A.D. 634).

“It was fitting …that the most holy-body of Mary, God-bearing body, receptacle of God, divinised, incorruptible, illuminated by divine grace and full glory …should be entrusted to the earth for a little while and raised up to heaven in glory, with her soul pleasing to God.” Theoteknos of Livias, Homily on the Assumption (ante A.D. 650).

“You are she who, as it is written, appears in beauty, and your virginal body is all holy, all chaste, entirely the dwelling place of God, so that it is henceforth completely exempt from dissolution into dust. Though still human, it is changed into the heavenly life of incorruptibility, truly living and glorious, undamaged and sharing in perfect life.” Germanus of Constantinople, Sermon I (PG 98,346), (ante A.D. 733).

 

[Lampo]

But just because those men SAY that Mary was assumed and it was handed down as oral tradition doesn’t actually mean it happened. That is the point I was trying to make.

Understood. Doesn’t mean it didn’t happen either.

 

[justasking4]

So when I die and if my son passes it on to his children and so forth, somewhere this story stops being true?

No. If you don’t provide some way for others to access this story in the future then it will be lost. Future generations will not be able to say one way or the other if your story is true or not with out some documentation.

 

[justasking4]

Understood. Doesn’t mean it didn’t happen either.

true. However, if you are going to claim it did happen then its up to you to give evidence that it did in fact happen. Without this evidence, such as the assumption of Mary, which has no eyewitness accounts and not taught in scipture then you are left with speculations.

 

[qui_est_ce]

just because it wasn’t in one volume as we have it today doesn’t mean we didn’t have the writings of the apostles and their disciples then.

Ahh, and there we have it. How/Who discerned which writings were detemined to be the Holy Word of God?

So many claim to have been inspired by the Holy Spirit. But there are 33,000+ (I know you are tired of this number, because even I am).

There is so much out there in History that enriches our understanding of who Jesus was/is. So much in Church History which is twisted even unto this day.

Bengal, I am not a football fan. I do not care for the STL Rams, which used to be the LA Rams, never did like football., but Like baseball and the STL Cardinals,

Ben, you are so close, I am truly moved by your faith and intellect.

 

[justasking4]

Lampo;2783245]Sounds like you are calling a lot of the ECF idiots!

No. I’m exhorting catholics to look carefully and deeply at their beliefs.

Would you be persuaded if i claimed to know something that happened 500 years ago and had no evidence for it?

“As the most glorious Mother of Christ, our Savior and God and the giver of life and immortality, has been endowed with life by him, she has received an eternal incorruptibility of the body together with him who has raised her up from the tomb and has taken her up to himself in a way known only to him.” Modestus of Jerusalem, Encomium in dormitionnem Sanctissimae Dominae nostrae Deiparae semperque Virginis Mariae (PG 86-II,3306),(ante A.D. 634).

“It was fitting …that the most holy-body of Mary, God-bearing body, receptacle of God, divinised, incorruptible, illuminated by divine grace and full glory …should be entrusted to the earth for a little while and raised up to heaven in glory, with her soul pleasing to God.” Theoteknos of Livias, Homily on the Assumption (ante A.D. 650).

“You are she who, as it is written, appears in beauty, and your virginal body is all holy, all chaste, entirely the dwelling place of God, so that it is henceforth completely exempt from dissolution into dust. Though still human, it is changed into the heavenly life of incorruptibility, truly living and glorious, undamaged and sharing in perfect life.” Germanus of Constantinople, Sermon I (PG 98,346), (ante A.D. 733).

 

[qui_est_ce]

:extrahappy:

now that one is pretty easy, the apostles (who were still alive) were there. so their teaching was present by them being present.

Yeah!

Oy, I can’t believe how much has been posted since I began my lst post about an hour ago

This is what CAF is all about!

 

[bengal_fan]

Ahh, and there we have it. How/Who discerned which writings were detemined to be the Holy Word of God?.

a couple of church councils amid debate amongst many of the participants. i believe st. athanasius is credited with coming up with the list of books that was chosen. i have never denied where the bible came from. i would stress that the pope (not called that at the time, just known as the bishop of rome) did not just say, “hey, these are the books of the bible”. the purpose of the canon was to decide what books were really descended from the apostles so that we could have a primary authority on apostolic teaching (scripture). of course this teaching was interpreted by the church (magisterium) and the traditions (little t) were developed from it (or discarded because of it like the reading of Clement’s letters as scripture, he was a pope but his teaching on faith and morals and all else was not given the weight of the apostles’ writings i.e. scripture)

So many claim to have been inspired by the Holy Spirit. But there are 33,000+ (I know you are tired of this number, because even I am).

There is so much out there in History that enriches our understanding of who Jesus was/is. So much in Church History which is twisted even unto this day…

that number is a bit inflated though. that is taking every single independant church and non-denominational church and counting them as a complete separate theology. most are close to baptist or reformed theology. still, the point is valid in that when men try to live out a “Jesus, the bible, and me” type faith, it usually results in disaster. we were meant to be in community.

Ben, you are so close, I am truly moved by your faith and intellect.

thank you, that does mean a lot.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Ahh, and there we have it. How/Who discerned which writings were detemined to be the Holy Word of God?

God.

 

[bengal_fan]

God.

actually men guided by God.

 

[cascherman]

No this is not historical evidence for the event but the speculations of men. Notice the dates for these speculations. Its centuries.

centuries eh? Remind me of a little thing called ‘sola scriptura’. generally thought as 15 centuries later, no?

Personally, I would take 3 centuries over 15.

 

[guanophore]

I still believe that anything man touches becomes changed and flawed over time.

Then you are calling Jesus a liar, or a weakling. You are saying that He cannot keep us in all Truth, as He promised!

What you are claiming to be a matter of historical is very debatable. It has been debated through the centuries.

Debate does not negate.

If traditions are not established in scripture, then how can anyone be certain of their Christian authenticity?

We have reliable Apostolic Succession.

I can claim that the Holy Spirit revealed another planet of humans to me but does it make it so just because I claimed it? Most everything you have claimed to be fact has been and continues to be questioned and debated by many.

If your claim has not been taught by Jesus and the Apostles, is not witnessed in the Church Fathers, and contradicts the Teachings of the Church we have received through valid Apostolic Succession, then that is all it is, an empty claim.

The Teachings do not contradict the scripture. Scripture was created from them.

 

[cascherman]

Does everything have to be written down?

Yes. Otherwise you leave yourself open to all kinds of false ideas and speculations.

Sorry, I missed where Christ taught that.

But, I do remember a verse in John where he commissioned his disciples personally to go out throughout the world. And spread tradition. John 20:21 "Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” "

2 Thess. 2:15 “Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.” Wow, how can a 2000 year old oral tradition be marginalized so easily with verses like that?

One has to check their preconceived notions at the door when reading the Bible searching for true faith, Catholic or Protestant. If your religion is truth, there will be no verses that need to be ‘put on the shelf’. Just my thoughts.

 

[Little_Mary]

Hey Bengal Fan! The water in the Tiber is just fine! When can we expect you?

 

[guanophore]

i disagree that all three are equal. i agree that there is much that cannot be directly deduced by scripture ALONE, but it can be found by properly interpreting scripture (by “properly” i mean within context of trained theologians and in group setting).

Really? Like the Mormons do?

the trinity is actually pretty clear in the scriptures. not as a word of course, but the idea of the Father and Son being one in the same and sending their Spirit to us, and that Spirit being God dwelling within us and guiding us is all through the NT.

If this is true, then how come the Mormons think the HS is not a person, and that Jesus is not divine? They are very devoted to their bibles.

 

[Protestant101]

ahhhh…don’t get me started on trying to prove the Queenship of Mother Mary in the Bible…because you’d be surprise that it is everywhere in the OLD TESTAMENT and in the NEW.

My brother…you really do need to understand the Bible.

OK, then help me… But in order to discuss the question of sola scriptura better; I would be more interested in hearing which Marian beliefs of dogmas cannot be found “explicitly” in the Bible. And then we could actually compare sola scriptura with your version of truth, using a

 

[bengal_fan]

Really? Like the Mormons do?.

Mormons aren’t Christians

If this is true, then how come the Mormons think the HS is not a person, and that Jesus is not divine? They are very devoted to their bibles.

but the Book of Mormon takes precedence over the Bible. the presiding president takes precedence over the Book of Mormon AND the Bible so they aren’t that devoted to the bible.