Each “tradition” must stand on its own.
No. We would accept them because the scriptures teach these things. This is why a list of the Traditions of the catholic church for the past 2000 years would be so helpful. Then we could study them at depth and see if they really are apostolic or something else.
If we strictly limit ourselves to the topic as stated then there really is not much more than can be said.
very good point.
If what you say is true would that mean the HS had failed to reveal all that He intended for the canon?
What are the oral traditions you are referring to?
I don’t agree that one could not deduct from Scripture that God is truly trinitarian. Jehovah’s Witnesses who do not teach the Trinity have gone to great lengths to make sure all language was altered in their New World Translations version of the Bible that pertains to the Trinity. John 1:1 comes to mind right away.
As someone else has stated I would say that the Catholic Doctrines you are bringing up have *at least *as much evidence in the Bible as Sunday worship and the Trinity, besides the assumption of Mary, but we know of this because of Tradition.
I won’t (nor can I) judge your faith. But I can define what faith is.Why won’t someone just answer the question?
I have FAITH. I don’t need the proof. BUT the suggestion was posed that not everything Jesus did was in the bible. The verse says He performed many signs that weren’t written down… I am just saying, what important thing - handed down orally - is still taught today since it wasn’t written down.
John 1:1 speaks nothing about the Holy Spirit being God, and as we all know the Trinity is three. (But, to agree with you on something, I have had many discussions with JW’s about John 1:1 and they indeed ignore the implications of it in our translations)
I wish it was possible to make a comparison chart on this then we could see the differences more clearly. I honestly don’t know how would compare all the verses that in some manner speak of the Trintiy and compare it to verses on Mary’s assumption which is not even mentioned in Scripture.
Exactly. Scripture doesn’t say “Trinity” per say but it proves the Trinity. The Assumption is not only not mentioned, but is nowhere supported or even hinted toward. Big, big difference!
No, because all Revelation is not sufficiently contained in Scriptures - that is the whole point of this thread! But Revelation as a whole through its three modes (Scriptures, Tradition, Magisterium) is complete and preserved by the Holy Spirit.
I don’t know what was contained in that letter. It was obviously something Paul thought that the Colossians should know.
Wow, I have already admitted that the Trinity has more evidence from the Bible than the assumption… I yielded that!
Again, congratulations, you’ve already said what I said for you.
We can deduce it because we already know about it (via Tradition). It is like the movie the Sixth Sense. After you saw the ending it was so easy to pick up on the signals in the movie. But, almost no one knew what was going on the first time through. Same with doctrines like the Trinity. We can see the Trinity even in the Old Testament. But, if it is so apparent in the Old Testament, then why don’t the Jews believe in the Trinity. The same with the divinity of Christ - we can see all the signs in the Old Testament, but the Jews don’t believe.
Not to mention their denial of those teachings that are explicit in the Scriptures, like the Eucharist and other Sacraments, the Papacy, etc.
No, most certainly not! All I was saying was that I saw a whole lot of disrespectful comments flying back and forth, and could not and do not forsee an end to it if we don,t act as children of Christ. As we are told by Him- Seek first the kingdom of God and all these will be added unto you. The alusion to 2nd Corinthians 12 to 13 was waranted, because the body of Christ as a whole entity [all christians] is under attack by the media and by non-beleivers and other faiths enough, and we do not want to appear as a group of lunatics that cannot agree on anything if and when they come in to our church- or inthis case, thread- and are spouting off as speaking in tounges, without rhime or reason. I also wanted to include another quote from Paul to the Corinthians: The hand cannot say to the foot that it is not a part of the body [of Christ] because it is not a hand. Anyone who is redeemed by the blood of Christ is a valid part of His body,with Jesus as the head. Anyone who has a real relationship with Jesus shoul be able to see His presence in christians of other faiths, and should also see where other churches are strong where theirs is weak, therefore the above bible quote. furthermore, I want to say that I do not think that anyone on this thread has such ill intent that they feel utter con tempt for other christians, and only wanted to help everyone get back in touch with our mission as servants of Jesus Christ a little bit, that’s all. if we all keep in mind that god loves us all the same and more than we can immagine, we should all be able to have discussions on any subject with intagrity and emotions in tact…
I hold scripture to be the final authority, that of which we are to test all things. I also have faith that God would preserve his word through all the ages. I have heard the arguments that the Catholic Church played a huge, well possibly the whole part in its preservation and do not deny it. Israel preserved the old testament and alot of them missed the whole point of it. I do not think that because you possess the scriptures that you are an authority on it. I say this only to make a point and am not judging anyone. Did not Paul tell the Corinthian church to not go beyond what is written (1rst Corinthians 4:6) maybe all of chapters 3 & 4. Paul writes this while addressing divisions in the Corinthian church. I also beleive that the Holy Spirit is alive and well today but anything he truly reveals will stand up to the test because he cannot contradict himself. I beleive in the Trinity even though this word is not explicitly in the bible because it holds up to the test. The Bible speaks of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and claims that they are one. I do not believe in the Papacy because I beleive that Christ has abolished the priesthood and is our high priest (Hebrews Chapters 4-) well, the whole book. Peter the one Catholicism claims to be the 1rst Pope would not even let people bow down to him (Acts 10:25). Paul, again when addressing the Corinthian church told them not to follow Paul, Appollos, or somebody else (I can not remember) but to follow Christ. These are just some of the examples I can think of. The bible also speaks of signs & wonders accompyning(?) apostles and I have not seen one yet from a Pope and even if I do I will test him against the scriptures (Galations 1:8). So in the spirit of which I have written my opinion, I challenge you to test what I have said against the church’s earliest traditions written down for us in the bible. I am open for correction if you disagree with me and will accept it humbly if I am not correct based on our common ground, the bible.
Then where is this other Revelation that is inspired-inerrant that is not contained in the Scriptures themselves? Can you give me a couple examples of this revelation that is not in the scriptures that is God-breathed?
Would you happen to know what the first Tradition was after the apostles died?
That might be. But you are making a claim about the oral traditions of the apostles and claiming these oral traditions are revelations to are you not?
Everything the Apostles taught, which they learned from Jesus. Remember, no Bible after the Apostles died (for 400 years, anyway).
