Protestants: Where is the Bible in the Bible?

[agangbern]

I might add that all did not recognize Christ for who He is either. To me it is as evident as the sun sets in the west.

Which do you mean is evident: Your allegation that “all did not recognize Christ for who He is”? Or, “that Christ is He is”?

 

[Orionthehunter]

I believe it is the topic of transubstantiation that is debated among Christians, not the issue of practicing the Lords Supper. I do not know if this is the correct thread to discuss this topic.

It is relevant because the Holy Spirit used the Mass and Magisterium by Tradition and then Magisterium to canonize the Bible. It is also relevant because the Apostolic and Early Church Fathers all adhered to the principle of transubstantiation.

I don’t blame you for wanting to change the subject. It is a stubborn fact that I never have gotten even so much as a feeble response from a non-Catholic Christian.

 

[byoby]

Which do you mean is evident: Your allegation that “all did not recognize Christ for who He is”? Or, “that Christ is He is”?

That Christ is who He said He is as recorded in the New Testament and that He fullfilled the Messianic prophecies of the Old Testament. I believe my allegation is correct about people not recognizing who He is and that this was predicted in the Old Testament.

 

[byoby]

It is relevant because the Holy Spirit used the Mass and Magisterium by Tradition and then Magisterium to canonize the Bible. It is also relevant because the Apostolic and Early Church Fathers all adhered to the principle of transubstantiation.

I don’t blame you for wanting to change the subject. It is a stubborn fact that I never have gotten even so much as a feeble response from a non-Catholic Christian.

I do not know enough to know if I even agree with the premise that the Apostolic and Early Church Fathers all adhered to the principle of transubstantiation. The Apostles who were the earliest church fathers writings as recorded in the bible in my opinion and “private interpretation” do not seem to substantiate this claim. I cannot argue with tradition other than saying that up to a certain point in history people traditionally thought the earth was flat. This does not mean that all traditions are false, just that some may be.

 

[agangbern]

Originally Posted by agangbern View Post
Which do you mean is evident: Your allegation that “all did not recognize Christ for who He is”? Or, “that Christ is He is”?

That Christ is who He said He is as recorded in the New Testament and that He fullfilled the Messianic prophecies of the Old Testament. I believe my allegation is correct about people not recognizing who He is and that this was predicted in the Old Testament.

Oh! “That Christ is who He said He is”. You think that that fact is as self-evident as the claim that “the bible is the word of God”. Your opinion that “who Christ is” is evident would differ from the truth. For knowing who really Christ is is only a gift from the Father. Jesus said, "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar Jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to thee, but my Father in heaven" (Mathew 16:17) So, the entire truth about Jesus is not self-evident. It is revealed by the Father.

“People not recognizing who He is” is not the same as “All did not recognize Christ for who he is.” The latter is false, because there surely is one who recognized Him fully: Simon Bar Jona, the man known as Peter.

 

[byoby]

Oh! “That Christ is who He said He is”. You think that that fact is as self-evident as the claim that “the bible is the word of God”. Your opinion that “who Christ is” is evident would differ from the truth. For knowing who really Christ is is only a gift from the Father. Jesus said, "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar Jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to thee, but my Father in heaven" (Mathew 16:17) So, the entire truth about Jesus is not self-evident. It is revealed by the Father…

God and His Word is self-evident in that His existence does not depend upon our belief. I realize that our belief in Christ originates from the Father as I realize that our very existence is dependant upon His very Word as well.

“People not recognizing who He is” is not the same as “All did not recognize Christ for who he is.” The latter is false, because there surely is one who recognized Him fully: Simon Bar Jona, the man known as Peter.

Sorry I did not word my statement correctly. There were and still are many who do not recognize Christ for who He is, just as there are many who have and do.

 

[Orionthehunter]

I do not know enough to know if I even agree with the premise that the Apostolic and Early Church Fathers all adhered to the principle of transubstantiation. The Apostles who were the earliest church fathers writings as recorded in the bible in my opinion and “private interpretation” do not seem to substantiate this claim. I cannot argue with tradition other than saying that up to a certain point in history people traditionally thought the earth was flat. This does not mean that all traditions are false, just that some may be.

So, if you are presented with information that demonstrates the following, you will honestly consider that the Catholic Church might be what she claims she is?

1. The Apostolic and Early Church Fathers conducted the Mass, taught it to their disciples, and made it a central component to communal worship and prayer.
2. The Apostolic Fathers and Early Church Fathers taught that the Eucharist was the “Body, Soul and Divinity” of Jesus Christ.

 

[Steadfast]

So, if you are presented with information that demonstrates the following, you will honestly consider that the Catholic Church might be what she claims she is?

1. The Apostolic and Early Church Fathers conducted the Mass, taught it to their disciples, and made it a central component to communal worship and prayer.
2. The Apostolic Fathers and Early Church Fathers taught that the Eucharist was the “Body, Soul and Divinity” of Jesus Christ.

If you can show me where the ECF’s taught and believed that the bread and wine were changed into the Body and Blood of Christ such that the bread and wine ceased to exist only the accidents remaining, I will enroll in RCIA today.

 

[guanophore]

About the scriptures being God Breathed, yes it is in the bible.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God breathed…

That all Christians believe this, again yes. The bible does not say all Christians believe that the bible is God Breathed and is like asking where is the bible in the bible or where is the sky in the sky or where is the Catholic in the Catholic or where is the tree in the tree… it is I believe just absolutely true whether we believe it or not.

No, these are not the same, byoby. God inspired the men to write the NT, but this occurred over a period of 50 years. Those writings were not officially ratified as a unified whole until three centuries later. The reason the Church knew which books were inspired was by comparing the contents of the writings with the teachings of the Church, which had been handed down by the Apostles to their successors. It was this infallible teaching that enabled the councils to discrimminate amongst all the writings.

No where in the Bible will you find a list of what belongs in the Bible. That is because this determination was made infallibly by the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. The church preceeded the bible, produced the bible, preserved the bible, and promulgated the bible. the bible embodies the teaching of the Church, and not the other way around.

 

[guanophore]

If someone who claimed to be a Christian did not want to be baptised by water it would only cause me to question whether their faith is genuine. We only seem to disagree on what happens at baptism and it is a bit like two non mechanical persons arguing over how a car works.

I would sure be interested if you could join us on the baptism thread.

What did Jesus tell us to do if there was a dispute between people?

I do not think understanding how it works matters in the big picture so long as we do it with faith and agree that it is a command of Christ.

I think it is a matter of accepting the authority that Jesus appointed for the church. If one rejects the apostolic authority, one rejects Christ. that is why it matters in the big picture. The Apostles taught that baptism washes away sins, and they baptized infants, children, and disabled people.

 

[byoby]

So, if you are presented with information that demonstrates the following, you will honestly consider that the Catholic Church might be what she claims she is?

1. The Apostolic and Early Church Fathers conducted the Mass, taught it to their disciples, and made it a central component to communal worship and prayer.
2. The Apostolic Fathers and Early Church Fathers taught that the Eucharist was the “Body, Soul and Divinity” of Jesus Christ.

Yes, this would help. Please understand that I have been honestly considering the question especially since I found this site.

 

[byoby]

No, these are not the same, byoby. God inspired the men to write the NT, but this occurred over a period of 50 years. Those writings were not officially ratified as a unified whole until three centuries later. The reason the Church knew which books were inspired was by comparing the contents of the writings with the teachings of the Church, which had been handed down by the Apostles to their successors. It was this infallible teaching that enabled the councils to discrimminate amongst all the writings.

No where in the Bible will you find a list of what belongs in the Bible. That is because this determination was made infallibly by the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. The church preceeded the bible, produced the bible, preserved the bible, and promulgated the bible. the bible embodies the teaching of the Church, and not the other way around.

Do you mean the New Testament or Old Testament or Both?

 

[byoby]

I would sure be interested if you could join us on the baptism thread.

What did Jesus tell us to do if there was a dispute between people?

I think it is a matter of accepting the authority that Jesus appointed for the church. If one rejects the apostolic authority, one rejects Christ. that is why it matters in the big picture. The Apostles taught that baptism washes away sins, and they baptized infants, children, and disabled people.

I will take a look. Thanks!

“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” 2 Thess 2:15

This is a common verse I see used to validate tradition. I also notice that it says either by word of mouth or by letter. It seems to me through the plain reading of the text that what was taught through word of mouth was the same as what is taught in the letter. Otherwise might it say stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us by adding or combining our word of mouth to the letters?

Is it safe to say that what was taught by word of mouth is the content of the letters or even what the letters contain is what was taught by word of mouth? I understand the teachings were most likely first taught by word of mouth but now we have the letters.

 

[guanophore]

If you believe as I do that the Scriptures are God Breathed-God communicating with words- The words of God then how can they not be authoritative?

Words are just that, and have no “authority” in and of themselves. These are inspired writings, and are profitable for training in righteousness. Scripture is essential. But Jesus did not leave “words” in charge of His church. He left shepherds, prophets, teachers, evangelists, bishops, etc. These are those what have the authority. Scripture reinforces their authority, but it is not based on the scripture, but on the appointment of Jesus.

Are we not acknowledging that these are the very words of God?

Yes.

Do not Catholics claim that Catholic doctrines are found or at least supported in the Bible?

Yes, but they do not originate there. They originate in the Teaching of Jesus, and are handed down to us by the Apostles. The Scriptures reflect these teachings.

Did not the earliest members of the Christian Church which is founded on the Apostles write the New Testament Scriptures?

Yes, and they would all be appalled to find out that the scriptures have been taken out of their context, which is the Catholic Church.

Does the Catholic Church make sure that Catholic teachings do not contradict the writings of the earliest church fathers?

No. Some of the writings of the fathers are outside Apostolic Teaching. They are also valuable to read for historical reasons, but doctrine is based upon the Deposit of Faith that was passed down from the Apostles.

I will go out on a limb and guess that you would probably say yes to these questions and if I am right then the Catholic Church acknowledges the supreme authority of the bible as well.

The Bible is an authoritative source, but it is not the only source. The Church is also God Breathed, and embodies the Authority of Christ. And what did Jesus instruct us to do if there was a dispute?

It might just be me but I do not think this verse relates to the topic unless the Catholic Church knows all of the good miracles and deeds that Christ did while walking the earth.

We know that scripture is only part of the Divine Deposit of faith, and that Sacred Tradition is equally important.

 

[Orionthehunter]

If you can show me where the ECF’s taught and believed that the bread and wine were changed into the Body and Blood of Christ such that the bread and wine ceased to exist only the accidents remaining, I will enroll in RCIA today.

Byoby: ARe you on board too?

 

[Rolltide]

If you can show me where the ECF’s taught and believed that the bread and wine were changed into the Body and Blood of Christ such that the bread and wine ceased to exist only the accidents remaining, I will enroll in RCIA today.

Here’s a link to our arguments for Transubstantiation for you.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=198602

 

[Orionthehunter]

Yes, this would help. Please understand that I have been honestly considering the question especially since I found this site.

If you can show me where the ECF’s taught and believed that the bread and wine were changed into the Body and Blood of Christ such that the bread and wine ceased to exist only the accidents remaining, I will enroll in RCIA today.

My easiest place to refer you to is the following which references Scripture, the following ECF’s and early Church:

1 Cor. 10:16–17, 11:23–29; and, most forcefully, John 6:32–71).

Ignatius, Irenaeus, Hippolytus, Tertullian, Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Cyprian of Carthage, Council of Nicaea I, Aphraahat the Persian Sage, Cyril of Jerusalem, Ambrose of Milan, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Augustine, and Council of Ephesus. All of these teachings were before the canonization of the Bible.

catholic.com/library/Real_Presence.asp

 

[po18guy]

I do not argue with the fact that Jesus instituted the practice of “breaking of the bread.” I also do not argue that we as Christians should gather together frequently for fellowship and worship as well.

Genesis 14:18-19 (New International Version) Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, and he blessed Abram, saying, “Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth”.

Actually, Melchizedek instituted the practice of breaking the bread as the unbloody sacrifice, as it remains today in the Eucharist. Christ is the fulfillment of that sacrifice. He specifically says so, many times over in John 6. This has been practiced without interruption since the Lord’s supper on Holy Thursday. Paul wrote about it in 1 Corinthians 11, as well. What a tremendous blessing that half of Christianity is missing out on!

 

[Steadfast]

My easiest place to refer you to is the following which references Scripture, the following ECF’s and early Church:

1 Cor. 10:16–17, 11:23–29; and, most forcefully, John 6:32–71).

Ignatius, Irenaeus, Hippolytus, Tertullian, Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Cyprian of Carthage, Council of Nicaea I, Aphraahat the Persian Sage, Cyril of Jerusalem, Ambrose of Milan, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Augustine, and Council of Ephesus. All of these teachings were before the canonization of the Bible.

catholic.com/library/Real_Presence.asp

Please see Rolltide’s thread for my response.

 

[agangbern]

Please see Rolltide’s thread for my response.

May I request for the link?