Protestants who accept OSAS: How do you explain these scriptures?

[distracted]

Hebrews is talking about someone who knows about Jesus yet continues to purposely sin.

Knows aabout Jesus (??) Even the demons “know about Jesus” and tremble (James 2:12)… “Faith without works is dead” … Kinda like a dead horse… worthless…

Hence no OSAS…

 

[distracted]

IHow much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said: Vengeance belongeth to me, and I will repay. And again: The Lord shall judge his people.

Thanks for that… and especially for this, something comfort-loving, take the easy way out americans (and others) don’t seem to believe in anymore:

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Hebrew 10.

 

[distracted]

I’m not defending Luther - but he never claimed to be a prophet - so can’t be a “false prophet.”

he claimed to speak for God, somehting a prophet does… In fact, it is my understanding that the definition of prophet is one who speaks fo God… Obvioiusly Luther spoke for a god but it wasn’t the God… (more like the god of this world… )… he WAS a false prophet…

all, Christians, responsible for gleaming the meaning of scripture with the assistance of the Holy Spirit.

Blessings,

Brian

& that’s why we have all the confusion in the world… 35,000 different (so-called ) Christian churches… But there is only ONE Church… (the Catholic Church calls all those “others” ecclesiastical communities… not churches…

Hmm… it seems to me the Holy Spirit is… what?? lying to all those who think they are interpeting Scirpture correctly but who are not?? 35,000 different denominations that all disagree… cannot be “right”… ("nobody is right if everybody’s wrong)

 

[wisdomseeker]

This issue of OSAS is just like Catholic/Protestant debate on works.

Just as faith, without works is dead (so a Protestant believes works follows from faith and a Catholic might think works are necessary - but we end up in the same place - - so we should all live our lives as though OSAS is not true. A Protestant would say OSAS and those who intentionally sin (as oppossed to fall into sin and repent) were never saved - but the effect is those who are saved avoid sin and repent when they do sin. One who does not believe in OSAS would say we must repent from sin when we fall into sin else lose our salvation. We end up, once again, the same place . Those who don’t repent were either never saved, or lose their salvation depending which side of the fence you are on the issue.

I do think that once we are touched by the Holy Spirit and born again, we will have an aversion to sin and desire to sincerely repent that did not exist before. Whether this rises to the level of OSAS, I don’t know.

Blessings,

Brian

this is contrary to what is being said in Hebrews.

**“I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”
Saint Augustine (354-430), Against the Letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D… **

 

[wisdomseeker]

Again I’m not a believer in OSAS. I was merely pointing out the 2 verses had nothing to do with refuting OSAS and that it is a commonly misunderstood doctrine.

Hebrews is talking about someone who knows about Jesus yet continues to purposely sin. He or she cannot look forward to another sacrifice for forgiveness. Romans talks about this very issue when Paul states that you cannot be a servant to sin and Jesus at the same time. The old you cannot serve 2 masters.

OSAS simply recognizes that once you are saved you don’t stop sinning. We all sin everyday and fall short. That’s why Jesus died so we could have forgiveness before GOD. But OSAS does not state that you can be saved and then continue to purposely live a life of sin. People who believe in OSAS don’t purposely continue to commit sin. They don’t see confession as a necessary action because they don’t believe the sins you commit separate you from GOD once you are saved. Hence OSAS.

PEACE

no, he is talking about people who pratice the faith then forsake it. probably to follow their own desires. or even because they dont agree with the teachings.

**“I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”
Saint Augustine (354-430), Against the Letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D… **

 

[distracted]

this is contrary to what is being said in Hebrews.

**"I **

i don’t know what Hebrews verse you are referring to… but there is no way you can read the bible and not see quite clearly that there is nO OSAS…

 

[wisdomseeker]

i don’t know what Hebrews verse you are referring to… but there is no way you can read the bible and not see quite clearly that there is nO OSAS…

i dont believe in osas that is a protestant belief.
i am refering to Heb 10 that one i posted and you commented on it.

**“I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”
Saint Augustine (354-430), Against the Letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D… **

 

[distracted]

i dont believe in osas that is a protestant belief.
i am refering to Heb 10 that one i posted and you commented on it.

]

otay…

 

[Lilyflower]

I’m just playing devil’s advocate…

but I assume one could argue that St. Matthew is referring to people such as David Koresh(sp?) that do things claiming “God told them to” or whatever. I don’t believe in this argument, but again, playing devil’s advocate.

I did find this interesting though, and I apologize if it’s slightly off the original topic…

"he is handed over to the torturers until the once-written-off debt is paid in full (“the last penny”)… "

Does this refer to purgatory? I’m not sure that I’ve ever seen this used as support for purgatory, but to me it seems like it refers to it.

My emphasis

This has always been my interpretation of that text, that the Lord was directly making reference to Purgatory.

Blessings and peace

 

[brkn1]

Today, the Gospel reading at Mass was St. Matthew 7:21:

"Not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven… [Many will say, "Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name and cast out demons in your name… and Jesus says, “Depart from me, i never knew you…”]

If Jesus said, “Depart from me, I never knew you…”, then that person would qualified as not ever having been saved in the first place. Jesus would have “known” a person that had been once saved.

Then there is St. Matthew 18:23 which speaks of a person being Totally forgiven of his sins, but who then cannot find it in his heart to forgive his fellow “servant”… he is handed over to the torturers until the once-written-off debt is paid in full (“the last penny”)…

this is speaking of a person who was, as you say, “saved”…

There are others… but i will leave it at that… for now…

It would be hard for me to believe that the forgiven servant was “saved”, since a truly saved person would not immediately go out and demonstrate such an unforgiving spirit with others afterwards. One of the evidences of having been born again, of incorruptible (never-to-be-lost) seed, would be a forgiving spirit.

I can see where the idea of purgatory might be pointed to in these verses. If you consider that the wicked servant was delivered to the torturers until a ten thousand talent debt was paid, then it is obvious that the debt would never be paid. The wicked servant could never pay such a debt while being tortured. Purgatory would be the equivalent of eternal hell in that case.
If you are saying that such a “sin debt” could be paid by our own suffering, then Jesus did not have to suffer in our place.

Another reason it does not seem to be talking about “purgatory” is that the wicked servant was going to be required at first to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had on earth etc. We are going to be individually responsible at death, not jointly responsible with our offspring and relatives.

 

[ibkc]

I can see where the idea of purgatory might be pointed to in these verses. If you consider that the wicked servant was delivered to the torturers until a ten thousand talent debt was paid, then it is obvious that the debt would never be paid. The wicked servant could never pay such a debt while being tortured. Purgatory would be the equivalent of eternal hell in that case.
If you are saying that such a “sin debt” could be paid by our own suffering, then Jesus did not have to suffer in our place.

Not at all. We believe the Bible at its word when it says that nothing impure can be in the presence of the Lord, and Purgatory is simply the place where we are made pure. It is not the equivalent of eternal hellfire at all, because everyone in Purgatory is on their way to Heaven.

 

[SD_Catholic]

Hebrews is talking about someone who knows about Jesus yet continues to purposely sin. He or she cannot look forward to another sacrifice for forgiveness. Romans talks about this very issue when Paul states that you cannot be a servant to sin and Jesus at the same time. The old you cannot serve 2 masters.

PEACE

It seems there is a very gray area as to how much truth we actually have to know to be OSAS??? This is so confusing… NOT!!!

SD

 

[brkn1]

Not at all. We believe the Bible at its word when it says that nothing impure can be in the presence of the Lord, and Purgatory is simply the place where we are made pure. It is not the equivalent of eternal hellfire at all, because everyone in Purgatory is on their way to Heaven.

If you die with any sin unforgiven, you have died in your sins and you will be eternally condemned.

A person who is born again is given by God a new nature that is incorruptible and unable to sin. The old sin-nature still exists alongside the born again nature until the death of the physical body. All of the sins of that nature (our old man) are “crucified with Christ” once we have believed and been sealed permanently by the Holy Spirit into Jesus’ sacrifice as our substitute sin-bearer in our place.
(Galatians 2:20) “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.”

The “old man” dies with the flesh for a born again person. It was already crucified with Christ as soon as the new birth occurred. It does not go to “purgatory”. All sins of that “old man” are covered by Christ’s sacrifice, if we have been eternally saved and sealed by being born again into God’s family. The Father sees only Christ in us when it comes to our standing before Him now and later after death. All of our past, present and future sins are erased by God’s gift of saving faith in God’s Substitute for us, the Lord Jesus Christ. Those who die without this true saving faith that covers all sin are condemned in their “old man” sinful nature.

There is no salvation for unbelievers at death and there is no second chance to remove any sin after death. If you are not born again before death, you have died in your sins and you are eternally condemned. This whole “second chance” “purgatory” is not supported by Scripture.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

This whole “second chance” “purgatory” is not supported by Scripture.

1Co 3:15 If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

A man himself shall be saved, through purgation.

1Pe 3:18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,
1Pe 3:19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:
1Pe 3:20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.

Christ preached to the souls that were in prison. Prison = purgatory.

1Pe 4:6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: That they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh: but may live according to God, in the Spirit.

The gospel was preached to the dead. Let’s see, not those in heaven, they’re alive eternally. Not those in eternal damnation where’s there’s no salvation. Only one place left to preach to the dead, purgatory.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[GailMac]

Congratulations Adam14! We’re happy to have you. Enjoy RCIA. I’ll pray for you!

Peace,

Gail

P.S. I went through RCIA in 1995 to 1996 and received Batism, Confirmation and First Holy Communion at the Easter Vigil that year. It was the greatest night of my life!

 

[brkn1]

< (1 Peter 4:6) “For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”>

The gospel was preached to the dead. Let’s see, not those in heaven, they’re alive eternally. Not those in eternal damnation where’s there’s no salvation. Only one place left to preach to the dead, purgatory.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

Do you seriously think that (1 Peter 4:6) is referring to people that are already physically dead?
It seems that “dead” in this verse is speaking about being “spiritually dead”, as in (Eph. 2:1): “And you hath He quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins.”
Anyone who physically dies with any unforgiven sin is eternally condemned. All of your sins must be forgiven before death.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

1Jn 5:16 He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask: and life shall be given to him who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death. For that I say not that any man ask.
1Jn 5:17 All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death.

The above verses states there are differences in sin as some sin bring death.

Mat 12:32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

It appears from the above quote, some sins to be forgiven in the world to come, but not speaking against the Holy Spirit.

1Co 3:11 For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid: which is Christ Jesus.
1Co 3:12 Now, if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble:
1Co 3:13 Every man’s work shall be manifest. For the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire. And the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

I’ve added more verses from 1 Corinthians chapter 3 where St. Paul says every man’s work will be revealed in fire and the fire shall try every man’s work. Then in verse 15 St. Paul states that even though some man’s work will burn and he shall suffer loss, he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

If one was once saved always saved, why would St. Paul instruct men to work out their salvation with fear and trembling?

1Co 9:27 But I chastise my body and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.

Why did St. Paul think he might become a castaway if once saved always saved were true?

1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened to them in figure: and they are written for our correction, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore, he that thinketh himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall.

Gal 5:4 You are made void of Christ, you who are justified in the law: you are fallen from grace.

2Ti 2:11 A faithful saying: for if we be dead with him, we shall live also with him.
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us.
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, he continueth faithful, he cannot deny himself.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 Have moreover tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God and making him a mockery.

Seems there are alot of scriptures that state one can fall from grace, disproving once saved always saved.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Do you seriously think that (1 Peter 4:6) is referring to people that are already physically dead?

1Pe 3:18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,
1Pe 3:19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

Just as Peter spoke of our Lord’s death in the flesh but elivened in the spirit, when he preached to those spirits in prison, I believe 1 Peter 4:6 to be also speaking of spirits no longer in the flesh. I’ve added more verses in post 57 that I feel helps support the Catholic teaching of purgatory.

You didn’t address the other verses in the same post I had put 1 Peter 4:6. Do you agree with those or is there another reason you overlooked them?

It seems that “dead” in this verse is speaking about being “spiritually dead”, as in (Eph. 2:1): “And you hath He quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins.”
Anyone who physically dies with any unforgiven sin is eternally condemned. All of your sins must be forgiven before death.

I have bolded and underlined part of your statement above. Doesn’t this statement go against your previous statement that once saved always saved, or those who sin were never really saved to begin with? Afterall, once saved a person sins no more is what I understood you to say. How could one in such a state of grace die with unforgiven sins?

Also in post 57 are verses that question once saved always saved.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[Gene_Church]

My experience with Protestants concerning OSAS is that they know there are problems with this thought process.

 

[brkn1]

Why did St. Paul think he might become a castaway if once saved always saved were true?

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

(1 Cor. 9:27) has the word “castaway” in it, which gives the wrong message.
The Greek word is “adokimos”, which means “not approved”.
There is a big difference in meaning here. “Not approved” would mean that the extra prize (rewards) of running the race well would be lost, but that does not necessarily mean that salvation would also be lost.
Salvation is a gift of God which is not earned or it would not be “by grace”.