Protestants who accept OSAS: How do you explain these scriptures?

[distracted]

Today, the Gospel reading at Mass was St. Matthew 7:21:

"Not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven… [Many will say, "Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name and cast out demons in your name… and Jesus says, “Depart from me, i never knew you…”]

Then there is St. Matthew 18:23 which speaks of a person being Totally forgiven of his sins, but who then cannot find it in his heart to forgive his fellow “servant”… he is handed over to the torturers until the once-written-off debt is paid in full (“the last penny”)…

this is speaking of a person who was, as you say, “saved”…

There are others… but i will leave it at that… for now…

 

[Adam14]

Today, the Gospel reading at Mass was St. Matthew 7:21:

"Not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven… [Many will say, "Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name and cast out demons in your name… and Jesus says, “Depart from me, i never knew you…”]

Then there is St. Matthew 18:23 which speaks of a person being Totally forgiven of his sins, but who then cannot find it in his heart to forgive his fellow “servant”… he is handed over to the torturers until the once-written-off debt is paid in full (“the last penny”)…

this is speaking of a person who was, as you say, “saved”…

There are others… but i will leave it at that… for now…

I’m just playing devil’s advocate…

but I assume one could argue that St. Matthew is referring to people such as David Koresh(sp?) that do things claiming “God told them to” or whatever. I don’t believe in this argument, but again, playing devil’s advocate.

I did find this interesting though, and I apologize if it’s slightly off the original topic…

"he is handed over to the torturers until the once-written-off debt is paid in full (“the last penny”)… "

Does this refer to purgatory? I’m not sure that I’ve ever seen this used as support for purgatory, but to me it seems like it refers to it.

 

[distracted]

but I assume one could argue that St. Matthew is referring to people such as David Koresh(sp?) that do things claiming “God told them to” or whatever. I don’t believe in this argument, but again, playing devil’s advocate.

Why on Earth would anyone think tht passage had to do with … wackos?? Just wondering… Do you know someone who holds this theory??

"he is handed over to the torturers until the once-written-off debt is paid in full (“the last penny”)… "

Does this refer to purgatory? I’m not sure that I’ve ever seen this used as support for purgatory, but to me it seems like it refers to it.

it has been referred to as a reference to Purgatory, by a priest… can’t recall which one, was listening on the radio one day… (got in on last half of show )… I have been Catholic all my life but never knew Purgatory could be found in the Bible… Since then i have learned of many passages that support Purgatory… The Catholic faith is definitely found in the Bible, contrary to waht many Protestant “friends” had been talling me…

 

[mozart-250]

"he is handed over to the torturers until the once-written-off debt is paid in full (“the last penny”)… "

Does this refer to purgatory? I’m not sure that I’ve ever seen this used as support for purgatory, but to me it seems like it refers to it.

I thought the purpose of purgatory was purification…not torture?

 

[distracted]

I’m I did find this interesting though, and I apologize if it’s slightly off the original topic…

:

What is your religious background?? what do you believe about OSAS?

 

[Adam14]

I thought the purpose of purgatory was purification…not torture?

I don’t know enough about purgatory to answer your question. I have heard that purgatory is suffering(due to still being separated from God), but suffering doesn’t necessaraly mean torture. Your guess is as good as mine…I was just asking.

 

[Adam14]

Why on Earth would anyone think tht passage had to do with … wackos?? Just wondering… Do you know someone who holds this theory??
QUOTE]

Don’t know…just sayin…

I guess if someone feels that they can interpret passages accurately by themselves, they can in their mind make it refer to “wackos” or anything else?

 

[distracted]

I thought the purpose of purgatory was purification…not torture?

Purification is torture because it is not natural to us… We are used to being who we are in accordance with our environment(s)… we are NOT used to being in a holy environment… so when we are (Purgatory… or when meeting God after death), we are very uncomfrotable.

I am in Purgatory every time i sit with Jesus at the Blessed Sacrament (you know about his Presence in the Church, right??). Anyway, i used to tell myself and whomever would listen that i felt i was in Purgatory there… but didn’t know if the Church would agree… then i had it confrimed whem i found that a saint says this… (something similar), that the souls in Purgatory are There, with us, at the Blessed Sacrament… No wonder if feel SO uncomfortable There, at least for the first hour (longer if i have been away for a long time…)…

Anyway… God wants us to do our Purgatory (purging) here on Earth… but if we don’t finish “wroking out our salvation with fear and trembling” here on Earth, He let us do that after death… (1 Cor. 3:13, Rev 21:27, etc…).

 

[Adam14]

What is your religious background?? what do you believe about OSAS?

Long story short…I was raised in a Baptist church, although I wasn’t really “active” in my church then(we went to church sometimes, but I just went because my family was going). Actually started thinking about my faith right before I was married, and became Lutheran shortly after.

But this September I start RCIA…so I’m not exactly sure what to classify myself as at this very moment…I guess I’m still Lutheran until I join the Catholic church.

No I don’t believe in OSAS, however I used to before I joined the Lutheran church.

 

[distracted]

No I don’t believe in OSAS, however I used to before I joined the Lutheran church.

that’s odd… i would think Lutherans would believe (more/less) in OSAS since their founder, M. Luther, was the first one (historically) who came up with the absurd idea…

But then i also know that the Lutherans DO not accept all that Luther taught… Thank God for that…

 

[Adam14]

that’s odd… i would think Lutherans would believe (more/less) in OSAS since their founder, M. Luther, was the first one (historically) who came up with the absurd idea…

But then i also know that the Lutherans DO not accept all that Luther taught… Thank God for that…

I don’t recall OSAS being taught in my Lutheran church. I’m pretty sure that it’s taught that one can fall away from their faith. Either way, I started doubting OSAS just before joining the Lutheran church, so it wasn’t an issue for me at the time.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I’m just playing devil’s advocate…

but I assume one could argue that St. Matthew is referring to people such as David Koresh(sp?) that do things claiming “God told them to” or whatever. I don’t believe in this argument, but again, playing devil’s advocate.

I did find this interesting though, and I apologize if it’s slightly off the original topic…

"he is handed over to the torturers until the once-written-off debt is paid in full (“the last penny”)… "

Actually, that is the overall context of the passage. Now, I don’t believe in OSAS, I emphatically refute it. However, the context of the ‘Lord, Lord…’ passage is speaking of false prophets. The false prophets did many works, but never believed in Christ, taught false doctrine, etc.

 

[mozart-250]

Purification is torture because it is not natural to us… We are used to being who we are in accordance with our environment(s)… we are NOT used to being in a holy environment… so when we are (Purgatory… or when meeting God after death), we are very uncomfrotable.

I am in Purgatory every time i sit with Jesus at the Blessed Sacrament (you know about his Presence in the Church, right??). Anyway, i used to tell myself and whomever would listen that i felt i was in Purgatory there… but didn’t know if the Church would agree… then i had it confrimed whem i found that a saint says this… (something similar), that the souls in Purgatory are There, with us, at the Blessed Sacrament… No wonder if feel SO uncomfortable There, at least for the first hour (longer if i have been away for a long time…)…

Anyway… God wants us to do our Purgatory (purging) here on Earth… but if we don’t finish “wroking out our salvation with fear and trembling” here on Earth, He let us do that after death… (1 Cor. 3:13, Rev 21:27, etc…).

There is a difference between being uncomfortable in the presence of God and being tortured.

I seem to be getting mixed messages from Catholics on purgatory, but that is another issue…and honestly one way down on the food chain for me. Anyway…

I don’t necessarily believe OSAS anyway…so I can’t answer the premise of this thread.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Today, the Gospel reading at Mass was St. Matthew 7:21:

"Not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven… [Many will say, "Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name and cast out demons in your name… and Jesus says, “Depart from me, i never knew you…”]

Then there is St. Matthew 18:23 which speaks of a person being Totally forgiven of his sins, but who then cannot find it in his heart to forgive his fellow “servant”… he is handed over to the torturers until the once-written-off debt is paid in full (“the last penny”)…

this is speaking of a person who was, as you say, “saved”…

There are others… but i will leave it at that… for now…

how can protestants understand this, if they believe they have the Truth about God?

*** “Lord, to whom shall we go? you have the words of eternal life.” ***

 

[Our_Refuge]

I thought the purpose of purgatory was purification…not torture?

That quote from the Bible is a reference to purgatory however when reading the bible it is good to have several translations as not all translations are equal or true to the original texts. I have five bibles and none of them use the word 'torture"

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Today, the Gospel reading at Mass was St. Matthew 7:21:

"Not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven… [Many will say, "Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name and cast out demons in your name… and Jesus says, “Depart from me, i never knew you…”]

Then there is St. Matthew 18:23 which speaks of a person being Totally forgiven of his sins, but who then cannot find it in his heart to forgive his fellow “servant”… he is handed over to the torturers until the once-written-off debt is paid in full (“the last penny”)…

this is speaking of a person who was, as you say, “saved”…

There are others… but i will leave it at that… for now…

I’m not a Protestant, but I’ll bite ​

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**Why should that verse (or that parable) be relevant to OSAS ? **

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**Words spoken on one subject, often have no bearing on another. So to quote words relevant to subject X as an objection to belief Y, proves nothing. This applies to verses such Matt. 7.22, 23. **

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**The man in the parable has been forgiven a debt - there is no hint that the parable has anything to do with salvation. **

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**But let us assume for the sake of argument that the parable is about salvation - it still proves nothing against OSAS, because the thinking behind OSAS does not require forgiveness of sins to be extended only to the beneficiaries of OSAS, that is to the elect - & the Church is not composed of the elect alone; hypocrites too can receive forgiveness of sins; that is what is overlooked. But the elect alone, of whom alone on earth the true Church (which is in heaven) is made, receive forgiveness to their salvation, whereas hypocrites, lacking the good seed of the Word or having no stability in it, receive forgiveness indeed, not to their salvation but to their damnation. **

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OSAS is not endangered by the quoting of verses which apply to hypocrites, & which cannot be shown to apply to the elect. Since all men sin, & need to be vigilant lest they fall, the elect will be very careful to guard against the sin here condemned; & their very care not to commit it is a sign of God’s grace in them, & of the reality of their election.

---

 

[thirdn6]

Actually, that is the overall context of the passage. Now, I don’t believe in OSAS, I emphatically refute it. However, the context of the ‘Lord, Lord…’ passage is speaking of false prophets. The false prophets did many works, but never believed in Christ, taught false doctrine, etc.

Wouldn’t you consider Luther as a false prophet also? He was NOT able to prophesy the result of his work- protestantism disunity, was he?

How about protestant pastors or ministers who don’t have authority to teach Christ’s teachings. Aren’t they also false teachers because they teach false doctrines, etc?

Just asking. But it’s good for you to ponder on these things. Peace.

 

[Robbinson]

A traditional line of Protestant interpretation (there are many) on these verses are:

1. On the first verse - this is referring to those who were never saved - they followed a false gospel and never had the Holy Spirit. The world is full of “christians” (lower case “c”) who don’t really have faith and know God, but sit in Churches and go through the motions.
2. The second verse has nothing to do with salvation - but is demonstrating the importance of forgiveness. How can we expect God to forgive our sins if we don’t forgive others. This is taught indirectly in the Lord’s prayer. “Forgive us our tresspasses, as we forgive those who tresspass against us.”

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Robbinson]

Wouldn’t you consider Luther as a false prophet also? He was NOT able to prophesy the result of his work- protestantism disunity, was he?

How about protestant pastors or ministers who don’t have authority to teach Christ’s teachings. Aren’t they also false teachers because they teach false doctrines, etc?

Just asking. But it’s good for you to ponder on these things. Peace.

I’m not defending Luther - but he never claimed to be a prophet - so can’t be a “false prophet.”

As to your second question re: pastors - your question is based upon the assumption that the Church has authority (a Catholic doctrine). By definition, Protestant theology rejects Church authority and thus we are all, Christians, responsible for gleaming the meaning of scripture with the assistance of the Holy Spirit.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[thirdn6]

I’m not defending Luther - but he never claimed to be a prophet - so can’t be a “false prophet.”

As to your second question re: pastors - your question is based upon the assumption that the Church has authority (a Catholic doctrine). By definition, Protestant theology rejects Church authority and thus we are all, Christians, responsible for gleaming the meaning of scripture with the assistance of the Holy Spirit.

Blessings,

Brian

Yes. He’s not a prophet. He only taught false doctrines.

The teaching authority of the Catholic Church is not an assumption. It is a truth. Even St Paul before he was sent out he was first taught by the church. I don’t have problem with pastors or ministers teaching godliness and good morality but when it comes to faith matters and doctrines… oops, they don’t have the authority to do that. Only the apostles and their successors possess that authority.