Protestants who accept OSAS: How do you explain these scriptures?

[distracted]

They also taught that we are saved by grace alone.

you are agreeing with a Roman Catholic??

Oh oh!!

 

[distracted]

They also taught that we are saved by grace alone.

Here’s a shocker for you:

So does the Catholic Church…

Well, maybe i should explain. We are saved by grace but grace comes from doing the right thing (good works)… prayer, sacrifice, adherence to God’s word every day in every way… As James 2:12 says, “Faith without works is dead”… (not that faith is the exact same thing as grace… but whatever…)

 

[Chris258]

Here’s a shocker for you:

So does the Catholic Church…

Well, maybe i should explain. We are saved by grace but grace comes from doing the right thing (good works)…

Braces for accusations of Salvation-by-Works doctrine

 

[distracted]

Braces for accusations of Salvation-by-Works doctrine

it is pretty hard to articulate what the Church teaches concerning works/salvation and grace… I am weak in that area… I understand it but don’t know if i can explain it…

all i know is that when i get lost in some worldly activity (watching Craig Ferguson, for example :hypno: ) I don’t feel very spritual or close to God or like i am doing anything to help anyone… (though i am always thinking of Jesus in some way or another… ). When i tell someone about Jesus or salvation or what have you … when i am doing work that God wants me to do, i feel veyr close to Him and i feel his grace in a storng way… and that grace is what saves… Yes, i received grace when i was filled w/ the Holy Spriit… but that was many years ago… If i had done no good works since then, well, i would at least have a lot of purgatorial fire to undergo after death, and i believe i could also have lost salvation entirely… because if you don’t work for God, by default, you work for… you know who… that’s just reality… Jesus himself said that you cannot love Him and mammon… which is basically the world, the flesh and the devil…

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Faith plus works from scriptures.

Jas 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?

Jas 2:26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead: so also faith without works is dead.

Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing nor uncircumcision: but faith that worketh by Charity.

1Co 13:2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Joh 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

Mat 19:16 And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting?
Mat 19:17 Who said to him: Why askest thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

More on good works from scriptures.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 19:16 And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting?
Mat 19:17 Who said to him: Why askest thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments and keepeth them; he it is that loveth me. And he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him and will manifest myself to him.

Rom 2:2 For we know that the judgment of God is, according to truth, against them that do such things.
Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them who do such things and dost the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and patience and longsuffering? Knowest thou not that the benignity of God leadeth thee to penance?
Rom 2:5 But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God:
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works.
Rom 2:7 To them indeed who, according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But to them that are contentious and who obey not the truth but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation.

Gal 5:4 You are made void of Christ, you who are justified in the law: you are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we in spirit, by faith, wait for the hope of justice.
Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing nor uncircumcision: but faith that worketh by Charity.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God.
Eph 2:9 Not of works, that no man may glory.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.
Php 2:13 For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.

Jas 2:14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?
Jas 2:15 And if a brother or sister be naked and want daily food:
Jas 2:16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit?
Jas 2:17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
Jas 2:18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works. Shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?

Judged according to deeds from scriptures.

Rom 2:5 But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God:
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works.
Rom 2:7 To them indeed who, according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But to them that are contentious and who obey not the truth but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation.

2Co 5:10 For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he hath done, whether it be good or evil.

2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers be transformed as the ministers of justice, whose end shall be according to their works.

1Pe 1:17 And if you invoke as Father him who, without respect of persons, judgeth according to every one’s work: converse in fear during the time of your sojourning here.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne. And the books were opened: and another book was opened, which was the book of life. And the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it: and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them. And they were judged, every one according to their works.

Col 3:24 Knowing that you shall receive of the Lord the reward of inheritance. Serve ye the Lord Christ.
Col 3:25 For he that doth wrong shall receive for that which he hath done wrongfully. And there is no respect of persons with God.

Wasn’t hard. Opening their hearts and minds to more than a couple scriptures…that’s hard.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[distracted]

Faith plus works from scriptures.

Wasn’t hard. Opening their hearts and minds to more than a couple scriptures…that’s hard.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

i didn’t have a Bible handy… although i do know a lot of those listed by heart… I guess maybe i made the foolish assumption that OSAS people (most?? some??) know those scriptures… & would have some argument against them…

Oh gee… i wonder why i thought that?? Probably because when i have used scirpture before, it didn’t seem to do much good.

do you sometimes get the feeling people just believe what they want to believe??? I mean, you know… not consciiously or anything… but in some way or another???

human nature…

 

[wisdomseeker]

A born again person is free from eternal damnation once that person is regenerated from the “dead in your sins” state of being that all begin with.
That does not give that saved person freedom from punishment if he continues sinning. David would be a good example of how God punishes His disobedient children. David still did not lose his salvation, although he was miserable for a long time as a result of his sins. David was punished all the rest of his physical life for his sins.

You use the words “may reach salvation” which indicates that you believe salvation is only a possibility and not a sure thing in this life.

In (John 5:24), Jesus said, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, HATH everlasting life, and SHALL NOT come into condemnation; but IS PASSED from death unto life.”

Those who say that this clear statement does not mean what it says, about a sure present salvation for a true believer, are effectively calling Jesus a “liar”.

Do you consider yourself on the category of the saved ones? how can you be so sure?
Jesus said: He that heareth my word and believe…
now if you are not catholic how do you know you believe what Jesus proclaims?

for instance Jesus said, this is my body, this is my blood and you dont believe it. how do you know you are not being a mocker of His Word?

for catholics we know Jesus left us a Church which is His body to teach and guide us into the Truth.
protestants choose to believe that Jesus left them a book.
Jesus never said write a book and give to everyone to read. what you will find is that Jesus said: I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. it is not easy for anyone to find her, but she is here and she is visible for everyone to see it.

:byzsoc:

 

[distracted]

A born again person is free from eternal damnation once that person is regenerated from the “dead in your sins” state of being that all begin with.
That does not give that saved person freedom from punishment if he continues sinning. ".

so what is to say that the punishment won’t go on eternally?? I mean if someone murders and rapes and etc… at what point is the punishment temporary (Purgatory) or permanent (Hell)??? I say the key thing is whether he repents and amends his life… If he doesn’t. .its Hell…

Jesus said that not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of the Father…

He said that those who love him keep his commandments…

when asked what he must do to attain eternal life, Jesus told the young man - not to be “born again”… not to accept Him as personal Savior… but to follow the COMMANDMENTS… and give up everythign to follow Him… (St. Luke 10:17)

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

i didn’t have a Bible handy… although i do know a lot of those listed by heart… I guess maybe i made the foolish assumption that OSAS people (most?? some??) know those scriptures… & would have some argument against them…

Oh gee… i wonder why i thought that?? Probably because when i have used scirpture before, it didn’t seem to do much good.

do you sometimes get the feeling people just believe what they want to believe??? I mean, you know… not consciiously or anything… but in some way or another???

human nature…

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Some are afraid of the truth. How could they explain their new understanding to family and friends, but that would be worrying about things of this world. It’s a major event for one to make a conversion. I know, I swam the Tiber in 1985. My wife and I are the only Catholics in our immediate families. It’s hard to empty your heart and let the Lord fill it up again. What I mean is that most are borned and raised into their beliefs. It shakes their worlds to give in to the Truth.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[distracted]

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Some are afraid of the truth. How could they explain their new understanding to family and friends, but that would be worrying about things of this world. It’s a major event for one to make a conversion. I know, I swam the Tiber in 1985. My wife and I are the only Catholics in our immediate families. It’s hard to empty your heart and let the Lord fill it up again. What I mean is that most are borned and raised into their beliefs. It shakes their worlds to give in to the Truth.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

thank God for your bravery… and not putting the things of the world first…

 

[myredeemerlives]

As a very quick response… (would be page long to try and reply to everything)

Yes faith without works is dead… however, it is talking about a person who believes in God and yet shows no fruit of the spirit. The bible says that even the demons believe, that is the kind of faith that is dead. It’s not talking about someone who has experienced a renewal of the spirit after being born again.

Rom 6:1 WHAT shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Paul also addresses the issue of can we sin after we are saved… he says certainly not! Those who have died to sin should no longer live in it.

 

[SD_Catholic]

As a very quick response… (would be page long to try and reply to everything)

Yes faith without works is dead… however, it is talking about a person who believes in God and yet shows no fruit of the spirit. The bible says that even the demons believe, that is the kind of faith that is dead. It’s not talking about someone who has experienced a renewal of the spirit after being born again.

Rom 6:1 WHAT shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Paul also addresses the issue of can we sin after we are saved… he says certainly not! Those who have died to sin should no longer live in it.

Well I guess everyone I’ve ever met must be going to hell than because I’ve yet to meet any that fit your “saved” criteria… I no longer live in sin but I still do mess up sometimes, aka sin… Our ideas of sin must be extremely different.

SD

 

[1holycatholic]

As a very quick response… (would be page long to try and reply to everything)

Yes faith without works is dead… however, it is talking about a person who believes in God and yet shows no fruit of the spirit. The bible says that even the demons believe, that is the kind of faith that is dead. It’s not talking about someone who has experienced a renewal of the spirit after being born again.

Rom 6:1 WHAT shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Paul also addresses the issue of can we sin after we are saved… he says certainly not! Those who have died to sin should no longer live in it.

We’ve got time. Please do.:coffeeread:

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

As a very quick response… (would be page long to try and reply to everything)

Yes faith without works is dead… however, it is talking about a person who believes in God and yet shows no fruit of the spirit.

Let me try and say what you’re saying so everyone can understand.

…It is talking about a person who has faith in God and yet shows no good works of the spirit.

Paul also addresses the issue of can we sin after we are saved… he says certainly not! Those who have died to sin should no longer live in it.

St. Paul said:

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins:
Heb 10:27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[myredeemerlives]

Where’s the contradiction?

I’m not saying once saved, always saved… I’m saying if you have died to sin you should no longer live in it. If someone continually and willfully lives in sin after being saved, then… yeah… their salvation is at risk.

 

[brkn1]

Do you consider yourself on the category of the saved ones? how can you be so sure?
Jesus said: He that heareth my word and believe…
now if you are not catholic how do you know you believe what Jesus proclaims?

for instance Jesus said, this is my body, this is my blood and you dont believe it. how do you know you are not being a mocker of His Word?

for catholics we know Jesus left us a Church which is His body to teach and guide us into the Truth.
protestants choose to believe that Jesus left them a book.
Jesus never said write a book and give to everyone to read. what you will find is that Jesus said: I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. it is not easy for anyone to find her, but she is here and she is visible for everyone to see it.

:byzsoc:

I most definitely know that I have been born again by the Holy Spirit and therefore am permanently saved.
It has nothing to do with accepting a denomination, but rather it has everything to do with accepting the free gift of God, which is Jesus Christ as my Redeemer. Such acceptance can not be given to anyone by a church or teaching or ordinance. It is completely the work of God, which redeeming work of salvation for us by Jesus Christ can not be added to. Jesus’ Sacrifice was completely sufficient to save all that come to Him in true faith. They only insult His all-sufficient one Sacrifice, when they think they can earn their salvation in some way by the addition of their own “good” works.
Good works are only the proof that one is saved, not the means of salvation. Good works are only the result of having already being saved.
No one is perfect and sinless after being saved, but if they have a real sense of grief as a result of disobeying God afterwards, then they are saved. An unsaved person does not worry or think about God, when they sin. I am not talking about the false sense of grief that many have when they do wrong. That is a cultural or tradition thing that is not truly thinking about God so much as about oneself. A true sense of grief prevents a saved person from indulging in sin and , instead, a saved person grows more Godly as the Spirit guides him.

Jesus told His disciples to preach the Gospel, which is in the Word of God that many disparage on this site as being inadequate.
They prefer the doctrines of man, which leads to the real mocking of God’s Word.

In (1 Peter 1:23), Peter declares, “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of the incorruptible, by the (Word of God), which liveth and abideth for ever.”

You can not lose that which is born of incorruptible seed.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I most definitely know that I have been born again by the Holy Spirit and therefore am permanently saved.

Not to contradict you here, brkn1, because of course as an evangelical I agree with most of what you’ve written here.

My only question is; how do you know that you have been saved?

 

[Robbinson]

Faith plus works from scriptures.

More on good works from scriptures.

Judged according to deeds from scriptures.

Wasn’t hard. Opening their hearts and minds to more than a couple scriptures…that’s hard.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

Thank you - this is spectacular post - letting the scriptures speak for themsleves. I’ll be reading it over carefully.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[distracted]

Yes faith without works is dead… however, it is talking about a person who believes in God and yet shows no fruit of the spirit. .

This scripture does not say it is referring to those who believe… “and yet shows no fruit…”

 

[distracted]

Not to contradict you here, brkn1, because of course as an evangelical I agree with most of what you’ve written here.

My only question is; how do you know that you have been saved?

even if you know you have been saved… even if we Catholics were to agree to those terms… that does not mean you will never, ever, regardless of sins committed, lose your salvation…

I’ve been “saved” hundreds oftimes… through confession… but i always commit sin (venial sin) after confession… Loving Jesus and adhering to his Commandmnets is a lifelong commitment, not a one-time thing…