Protestants who accept OSAS: How do you explain these scriptures?

[JonNC]

A person who has accepted Christ and afterwards sins (which is all of us)… still has an awareness of the Holy Spirit… but if the person sins again… and then rationalizes and sins again… and etc… that person, depending on the gravity of the sin… doesn’t really lose his conscience… (although some do) so he stil can be said to have the Holy Spirit… but sin opens the door to Satan and all his demons/followers… and God will NOT abide with those entitities… **God goes away when there is great sin without repentance… **
and we are then left alone to fight the devil… in all our weakness… With repentance, we are no longer alone… **but the damage is still there to be dealt with… **

**Jesus said that many will not make it to Heaven because they will not be “strong enough” … strong enough to fight evil… **Satan…
a person not in a state of grace eventually loses even the desire to be there… (in grace)…

Three questions, distracted. From your (Catholic) perspective,

Does God “go away”, or do we push him away when we choose not to repent?

Is the damage still there to be dealt with (after we repent), or was it dealt with on the cross?

Would you say that none of us are strong enough without the HS?

Jon

 

[wisdomseeker]

**Quote:
Originally Posted by myredeemerlives
“And by this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, I have come to know Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not Him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has been truly perfected. By this we know that we are in Him” (1 John 2:3-5 NASB).

Also, I hear Catholics saying that anything not Catholic is just someone’s own interpretation and they are all wrong. However, if you look more closely you’ll find it goes more like this…

Catholics = Bible + Catechism
Mormons = Bible + The book of Mormon
Jehovah’s witnesses = Bible + watchtower society teachings
Islam = Quaran
Christianity = Bible alone

So it’s not ALL churches who are manipulating scripture because true Christianity doesn’t mess with scripture like the other religions do. (yes, including Roman Catholicism… sorry) **

you forgot to mentiion Judaism: Torah+Nevi’im+Ketuvim+Oral Torah(Talmud).

St. Ambrose of Milan, The Sacraments, 4:4:14, 390AD
**“You may perhaps say: “My bread is ordinary.” But that bread is bread before the words of the Sacraments; where the consecration has entered in, the bread becomes the Flesh of Christ.” **

 

[myredeemerlives]

oh yes, thanks!

Someone said this…
The Church never taught the notion of being “saved” as a permanent state of being that occurs once someone accepts Jesus into their lives

Have you read the bible?

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

That doesn’t say might be saved later… it says SAVED! Past tense. That is one of just many verses.

 

[SIA]

Today, the Gospel reading at Mass was St. Matthew 7:21:

"Not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven… [Many will say, "Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name and cast out demons in your name… and Jesus says, “Depart from me, i never knew you…”]

Then there is St. Matthew 18:23 which speaks of a person being Totally forgiven of his sins, but who then cannot find it in his heart to forgive his fellow “servant”… he is handed over to the torturers until the once-written-off debt is paid in full (“the last penny”)…

this is speaking of a person who was, as you say, “saved”…

There are others… but i will leave it at that… for now…

So that makes the fool-proof case for Purgatory then? Acts 2:24-27 or 28. Do you believe these folks that were being saved daily along with the Apostles would be subject to falling off God’s radar somewhere along the line? Isn’t that why Jesus died for us? It is because he knew that there is ultimately nothing we can do to save ourselves.

 

[1holycatholic]

So that makes the fool-proof case for Purgatory then? Acts 2:24-27 or 28. Do you believe these folks that were being saved daily along with the Apostles would be subject to falling off God’s radar somewhere along the line? Isn’t that why Jesus died for us? It is because he knew that there is ultimately nothing we can do to save ourselves.

Acts 2:24-27 doesn’t say anything about OSAS.

 

[SIA]

Acts 2:24-27 doesn’t say anything about OSAS.

I didn’t say that it did! You folks are using the label OSAS, I am not. I am saying that i do not believe that these folks are being saved by God’s grace just to be dumped off the road at a later time. Do you believe in NSGG? (No Security in God’s Grace)?

 

[Steve_Pearson]

Then a person who becomes saved and under the doctrine of once saved always saved has to wonder if he is really and truly saved? What about Christians like Jimmy Swaggert, Jim Baker or Jim Jones? You’re saying they were never saved to begin with? What about people those type preachers lead to Christ, are they saved or not? Sounds like people can have no confidence in their salvation. I mean how do you find peace of the Lord if you always have to wonder if you’re really saved to begin with? No one knows what their futures hold.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

Prodigal, I suppose I did not explain myself well.

I do indeed hold to OSAS. I believe that is what John 10: 27-29 means.

Did Jimmy Swaggerat and the others you list loose their salvation? Not if they already had it. But when a person slides back as far a Jim Jones did, it does make one wonder if he was ever saved to begin with. It is not for me to judge anyone elses salavation as that task is the Lords. But is does make you wonder sometimes.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

That doesn’t say might be saved later… it says SAVED! Past tense. That is one of just many verses.

Let me share an example of how I see a flaw in your english lesson.

Let’s say you and I are standing beside a lake, and for the sake of this example, let’s say you can’t swim.

You fall in the water and I jump in and drag you out. I have just saved you from drowning.

If I leave and you slip again and fall into the lake, are you still saved? I’m using the word past tense as in your example.

Below, please see an example of how the word saved, past tense, is used in another scripture:

Mat 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

What does Matthew 24:13 mean? What would happen if one does not persevere to the end?

I also, can provide other verses, as examples, that in fact one can fall from grace:

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

If one is saved always, why should we work out our salvation with fear and trembling?

1Co 9:27 But I chastise my body and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.

Why is St. Paul concerned he might become a castaway?

1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened to them in figure: and they are written for our correction, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore, he that thinketh himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall.

What does St. Paul mean, he that thinketh himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall?

**I believe the next few passages to be self-explanatory. **

Gal 5:4 You are made void of Christ, you who are justified in the law: you are fallen from grace.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 Have moreover tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God and making him a mockery.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins:
Heb 10:27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.

I believe there are no contradictions in the Bible, and I assume you believe the same.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[GailMac]

Dear My Redeemer Lives:

You quoted me as in: "Someone said this…
The Church never taught the notion of being “saved” as a permanent state of being that occurs once someone accepts Jesus into their lives

Have you read the bible?

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." And then you provide a Bible verse to support your notion that salvation is a permanent state of being once a person accepts Christ. I suppose if you never read any other verses from the same Bible about what sin is and does, you could remain in error. Many do.

I’ll attempt to explain the verse you quote. If you bother to read the Scriptures from say, Romans 9 or so forward to the passage you quote you should be able to see St. Paul is talking about the Isrealites who though knowing God and the promise of a Messiah, were as yet still denying that Jesus is Lord and the awaited of Isreal. They refused, for various reasons, to accept that the Messiah had come, Who is Jesus. They needed saving from their error and St. Paul was holding them up as an example of how much they had and how much they lost by not calling on Jesus and acknowleging the Messiah had come, preached to them, taught, worked miracles in their midst, etc. then was Crucified, died and buried and then rose. This is the Good News the disciples were preaching from town to town and it was this Good News that certain of the Jews refused to accept. They were what we would consider heretics today. They believed in God, yes, and were good Jews until Jesus came along. They needed Him but refused to listen to the instruments of their salvation, the Apostles and disciples and witnesses to His ministry. All St. Paul wanted them to do was acknowlege that Jesus is Lord, that the Messiah had come and they, the Isrealites were to follow Him. Those who acknowedge the Holy Name of Jesus would be saved indeed, but saved from their errors and the fate of those who die in error which St. Paul knew. St. Paul was much in earnest because he loved them as his own flesh; they were to him extended family. He was trying to save their souls.

If you take this verse out of context and insert your own notion of what salvation means, particularly, refusal to listen to Christ’s ambassadors in this age, the Church and return to your own way of doing things, you too will be like those St. Paul wept over in Isreal who knowing God and having the promise of a Savior, the Messiah given to them, turned their backs on Him at the last. You repeat the error of those St. Paul was trying to retrieve. Had they acknowleged Jesus, they would have become full heirs to the promises and Christian. They didn’t and as you know St. Paul moved on to other places where he might bring the Good News to those willing to listen.

I suggest you discard all thoughts while reading Romans and go to the beginning of it, and prayerfully read through asking God to reveal to you the true meaning of the verses. You will see differently.

Or you could return to “calling on the name of the Lord” to reassure yourself that you haven’t lost your “salvation.”

Peace,

Gail

 

[SD_Catholic]

oh yes, thanks!

Someone said this…
The Church never taught the notion of being “saved” as a permanent state of being that occurs once someone accepts Jesus into their lives

Have you read the bible?

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

That doesn’t say might be saved later… it says SAVED! Past tense. That is one of just many verses.

But this says you’re not quite accurate… the Bible doesn’t contradict so both must be right… so it is improper to use Rom 10 to say that all who call on the Lord will be saved (implying forever), when Mat 7 clearly says that is not the case…

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Being “saved” doesn’t always mean forever saved… as P Son1 pointed out there are several ex to show that people can be in a state of “saved” only to be a castaway, to fall, to be cut off… these are things that can happen only if you’re part of that thing you’re being excluded from. Which means that yes I accepted the Lord but than later rejected him in some way as to damage that relationship enough that I was cut-off like the branch of an olive tree.

SD

 

[SD_Catholic]

Dear My Redeemer Lives:

You quoted me as in: "Someone said this…
The Church never taught the notion of being “saved” as a permanent state of being that occurs once someone accepts Jesus into their lives

Have you read the bible?

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." And then you provide a Bible verse to support your notion that salvation is a permanent state of being once a person accepts Christ. I suppose if you never read any other verses from the same Bible about what sin is and does, you could remain in error. Many do.

I’ll attempt to explain the verse you quote. If you bother to read the Scriptures from say, Romans 9 or so forward to the passage you quote you should be able to see St. Paul is talking about the Isrealites who though knowing God and the promise of a Messiah, were as yet still denying that Jesus is Lord and the awaited of Isreal. They refused, for various reasons, to accept that the Messiah had come, Who is Jesus. They needed saving from their error and St. Paul was holding them up as an example of how much they had and how much they lost by not calling on Jesus and acknowleging the Messiah had come, preached to them, taught, worked miracles in their midst, etc. then was Crucified, died and buried and then rose. This is the Good News the disciples were preaching from town to town and it was this Good News that certain of the Jews refused to accept. They were what we would consider heretics today. They believed in God, yes, and were good Jews until Jesus came along. They needed Him but refused to listen to the instruments of their salvation, the Apostles and disciples and witnesses to His ministry. All St. Paul wanted them to do was acknowlege that Jesus is Lord, that the Messiah had come and they, the Isrealites were to follow Him. Those who acknowedge the Holy Name of Jesus would be saved indeed, but saved from their errors and the fate of those who die in error which St. Paul knew. St. Paul was much in earnest because he loved them as his own flesh; they were to him extended family. He was trying to save their souls.

If you take this verse out of context and insert your own notion of what salvation means, particularly, refusal to listen to Christ’s ambassadors in this age, the Church and return to your own way of doing things, you too will be like those St. Paul wept over in Isreal who knowing God and having the promise of a Savior, the Messiah given to them, turned their backs on Him at the last. You repeat the error of those St. Paul was trying to retrieve. Had they acknowleged Jesus, they would have become full heirs to the promises and Christian. They didn’t and as you know St. Paul moved on to other places where he might bring the Good News to those willing to listen.

I suggest you discard all thoughts while reading Romans and go to the beginning of it, and prayerfully read through asking God to reveal to you the true meaning of the verses. You will see differently.

Or you could return to “calling on the name of the Lord” to reassure yourself that you haven’t lost your “salvation.”

Peace,

Gail

Boy am I slow…

 

[brkn1]

Dear My Redeemer Lives:

You quoted me as in: "Someone said this…
The Church never taught the notion of being “saved” as a permanent state of being that occurs once someone accepts Jesus into their lives

Have you read the bible?

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." And then you provide a Bible verse to support your notion that salvation is a permanent state of being once a person accepts Christ. I suppose if you never read any other verses from the same Bible about what sin is and does, you could remain in error. Many do.

I’ll attempt to explain the verse you quote. If you bother to read the Scriptures from say, Romans 9 or so forward to the passage you quote you should be able to see St. Paul is talking about the Isrealites who though knowing God and the promise of a Messiah, were as yet still denying that Jesus is Lord and the awaited of Isreal.

Paul was not only speaking about the Jew in (Romans 10:13).
Verse 12 before that says, “For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him.”.
The “whosoever” of verse 13 applies to all, not just to the Jew as you claim out of context.

They refused, for various reasons, to accept that the Messiah had come, Who is Jesus. They needed saving from their error and St. Paul was holding them up as an example of how much they had and how much they lost by not calling on Jesus and acknowleging the Messiah had come, preached to them, taught, worked miracles in their midst, etc. then was Crucified, died and buried and then rose. This is the Good News the disciples were preaching from town to town and it was this Good News that certain of the Jews refused to accept. They were what we would consider heretics today. They believed in God, yes, and were good Jews until Jesus came along. They needed Him but refused to listen to the instruments of their salvation, the Apostles and disciples and witnesses to His ministry. All St. Paul wanted them to do was acknowlege that Jesus is Lord, that the Messiah had come and they, the Isrealites were to follow Him. Those who acknowedge the Holy Name of Jesus would be saved indeed, but saved from their errors and the fate of those who die in error which St. Paul knew. St. Paul was much in earnest because he loved them as his own flesh; they were to him extended family. He was trying to save their souls.

If you take this verse out of context and insert your own notion of what salvation means, particularly, refusal to listen to Christ’s ambassadors in this age, the Church and return to your own way of doing things, you too will be like those St. Paul wept over in Isreal who knowing God and having the promise of a Savior, the Messiah given to them, turned their backs on Him at the last. You repeat the error of those St. Paul was trying to retrieve. Had they acknowleged Jesus, they would have become full heirs to the promises and Christian. They didn’t and as you know St. Paul moved on to other places where he might bring the Good News to those willing to listen.

I suggest you discard all thoughts while reading Romans and go to the beginning of it, and prayerfully read through asking God to reveal to you the true meaning of the verses. You will see differently.

Or you could return to “calling on the name of the Lord” to reassure yourself that you haven’t lost your “salvation.”

Peace,

Gail

 

[distracted]

Three questions, distracted. From your (Catholic) perspective,

Does God “go away”, or do we push him away when we choose not to repent?

what’s the difference… He’s gone!

Seriously… we push him away when we sin and we push him away when we refuse to repent… The human person is made to “worship”, meaning he is made to throw his whole self into… something… If that something is not God… and is terribly sinful… well, the person has just evicted God, as it were… God is holy and will not stay in a place that is not… at least somewhat holy…

Is the damage still there to be dealt with (after we repent), or was it dealt with on the cross?

both… What Protestants don’t realize is that what Jesus went through at Calvary, we have to go through also… (not literally, of course, with cross and nails, etc…) but spriitually… We suffer terribly because of the consequences of our sins… but if we apply the crucifixion of Christ to our souls/lives… If we crucify ourselves to sin and the world… as the Bible tells us to (St, Mark 10:17, etc… which speaks of giving up everything for Him)… we can, through Christ, make it beyond sin and onto the road to Heaven… Jesus said that such a road was “narrow and there are few who find it.” (i think that is St. Matthew 7:21 or 7:14??)

Would you say that none of us are strong enough without the HS?

Jon

…without Jesus Christ…

If you have Christ, you have the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[distracted]

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

That doesn’t say might be saved later… it says SAVED! Past tense. That is one of just many verses.

For one thing, this passage does NOT promise that the person will STAY saved… which is the subject of this Thread…

the bible also says that Not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who DOES (verb) the will of th Father…

those are Jesus’ words…

 

[distracted]

So that makes the fool-proof case for Purgatory then? Acts 2:24-27 or 28. Do you believe these folks that were being saved daily along with the Apostles would be subject to falling off God’s radar somewhere along the line? Isn’t that why Jesus died for us? It is because he knew that there is ultimately nothing we can do to save ourselves.

There is too something we can do - we can give up sin… and if we “fall” we can - and need to - get back up and … onto that narrow road Jesus spoke of… that one that not many find.

 

[SIA]

There is too something we can do - we can give up sin… and if we “fall” we can - and need to - get back up and … onto that narrow road Jesus spoke of… that one that not many find.

I agree. The Scriptures I was quoting were actually not Acts 2:24, but Acts 2:42.

 

[GailMac]

Dear Broken 1,

You refer to verse 12, Chapter 10, But if you take a look at Chapter 9, verses 30 - 31, you will see St. Paul using his witness of the acceptance of Jesus and His Message by the Gentiles. He uses them to shame the Jews with their refusal to listen and accept that Jesus is the Messiah and the witness and teaching of the Apostles. Keep reading. It is very easy to take things out of context and distort the meaning of the verses, but those of us who bother to read the rest of the story know better.
I hesitate to place the verses here, simply because by doing so I acknowege two things, first, it is obvious you didn’t go back and read the verse involved, nor do you seem to want to learn but rather want to argue in favor of OSAS which we already know is bunk. But, here goes, for those who may be interested: “30
10 What then shall we say? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have achieved it, that is, righteousness that comes from faith; 31 but that Israel, who pursued the law of righteousness, did not attain to that law?” (emphasis mine)usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/romans9.htm

I stand by what I wrote. You choose to disagree - that’s fine, but don’t try to convince me that the verses concerned mean something they don’t. You are free to believe anything you want to. As for me, I prefer to believe the Truth.

Link provided so you can look it up for yourself.

Peace,

Gail

 

[JonNC]

Seriously… we push him away when we sin and we push him away when we refuse to repent… The human person is made to “worship”, meaning he is made to throw his whole self into… something… If that something is not God… and is terribly sinful… well, the person has just evicted God, as it were… God is holy and will not stay in a place that is not… at least somewhat holy…

Well said. I would just add that He is always there, lurking as it were, waiting for us to repent.

Jon

 

[distracted]

Well said. I would just add that He is always there, lurking as it were, waiting for us to repent.

Jon

Jesus lurking… hmmm… That made me laugh…

 

[JonNC]

Jesus lurking… hmmm… That made me laugh…

Well, “hovering” sounded too much like a helicopter.