Protestants who have a problem with Catholic Traditions

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I have a question to ponder: Why would the Catholic Church, as part of it’s traditions, decide to publish the Bible if, as protestants commonly believe, the teachings of the Bible are contrary to the Church itself?

Catholic Bishops, with the help of the Holy Spirit, were the men who decided which documents would be called, “The Bible”!

Thus, the Bible itself is, in fact, Catholic Tradition!

Please correct me if I am wrong!
 
zcharry said:
I recommend the book highly so you will be aware of what beliefs the ELCA has and its dealings with your Church. I’m not trying to sway you from your Church or say your Church believe this garbage, but you should know what is going on.
Here are a few more quotes from the book. The documentation to back these statements up are in the book
Creation
The story of Creation in Genesis is a myth. We got here by a chance process of evolution that God directed or at least used.
Adam and Eve
Adam and Eve are symbols of humanity and not real people. The never really existed Thier story is a myth containing important spiritual truth just as the stories of Noah, Jonah, and Job are myths
The virgin birth
Jesus Christ was not born of a Virgin. we are not sure who his physical father was-perhaps Joseph or an itinerant Roman Soldier. The early church honored Jesus by pretending his only father was God.
I could go on and on. It is shocking. This book was written by conservative Lutherans trying to show where some churches(ELCA) are saying and headed in their Beliefs.
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Again, I know nothing about the ELCA, or the WFL, or any other Lutheran groups. But I do know that the stuff you quoted above is not anything taught by the Catholic Church. Far from it! I can certainly believe you when you say that some Lutherans believe that stuff, but I can assure you that no orthodox Catholic believes that stuff. Again, I’d like to read this Joint Declaration for myself, to see exactly what it states as being the framework of agreement between the Catholic Church and these Lutherans. You don’t by any chance have a link directly to the text of this agreement, do you?

Thanks!
 
truthnlight said:
Knowing God’s Law is a lot easier for the Bible-believing Christian. We have His revealed Word as our sole authoritative document on matters of doctrine and faith. Sure, there are commentaries, creeds and constitutions, but these are intended as aids to understanding the Bible, not as authoritative rules and laws extrapolated from Scripture. Granted, there are legalists among Bible believers, but their writings and pronouncements have no more authority than any other commentary or creed.

2 Peter 1:20-2 1, “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”

Revelation 22:18-19, “For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”
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First off…there are at a conservative estimate 20,000 different Protestant denominations in the world (bringyou.to/apologetics/a120.htm) and only ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH

Second, how is your way easier? We rely on the Church founded by CHRIST, who promised the Holy Ghost who would lead the Church into all Truth…you rely on a fallible, fallen human mind to try and interpret the Holy Scripture.

Third, your first verse contradicts sola scriptura…“no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.” Sola scriptura is dependant on private interpretation

Fourth, what does your second verse have to do with this topic at all?

Finally, why do fundamentalist Christians feel the need to talk about and appeal to Jews for evidence against the Catholic Church? I trust the Church CHRIST founded, not what some Jewish rabbi said about his incomplete talmud.
 
Allweather said:
Again, I know nothing about the ELCA, or the WFL, or any other Lutheran groups. But I do know that the stuff you quoted above is not anything taught by the Catholic Church. Far from it! I can certainly believe you when you say that some Lutherans believe that stuff, but I can assure you that no orthodox Catholic believes that stuff. Again, I’d like to read this Joint Declaration for myself, to see exactly what it states as being the framework of agreement between the Catholic Church and these Lutherans. You don’t by any chance have a link directly to the text of this agreement, do you?

Thanks!
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Here is the link
www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

JOINT DECLARATION
ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION

by the Lutheran World Federation
and the Catholic Church
Here is the link to the offical word from the church
www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_01081998_off-answer-catholic_en.html
The ELCA is part of the LWF, and The letter from the Pope talks directly about the ELCA
www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/2003/march/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20030324_evangel-luth_en.html
If you need more please just ask
God Bless
 
Allweather said:
Again, I know nothing about the ELCA, or the WFL, or any other Lutheran groups. But I do know that the stuff you quoted above is not anything taught by the Catholic Church. Far from it! I can certainly believe you when you say that some Lutherans believe that stuff, but I can assure you that no orthodox Catholic believes that stuff. Again, I’d like to read this Joint Declaration for myself, to see exactly what it states as being the framework of agreement between the Catholic Church and these Lutherans. You don’t by any chance have a link directly to the text of this agreement, do you?

Thanks!
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Do not get me wrong here. There is no smoking gun. All I’m saying is that the Catholic Church is trying to find common ground with these churches and has made agreements with them. However with a little digging the ELCA has a direction and beliefs that are way left of the Catholic Church. The Statements on the ECLA I gave you are back by their own statements over the years by clergy and professors in their Seminarys.
 
Allweather said:
zcharry, you’re losing me. The address by John Paul from 2002, which you quote, doesn’t seem to say anything about doctrine. It is a short sort of introduction and welcome. JPII mentions the Joint Declaration between the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church, but he doesn’t describe anything about it, except to say that it moves towards greater cooperation.

I’m sorry to say I know next to nothing about the various Lutheran organizations. What is the connection between the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, and the Lutheran World Federation? What do either of these have to do with the Norwegians?
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Just a brief history.The Lutheran Church split because of some wanting to water down doctrine. Two synods combined the LCA and the ALC to form the ELCA. The ELCA has fellowship with Lutheran Chruches all over the world, and that what makes up the Lutheran World Federation.
On the conservative side you have WELS, ELS,CLC, and the LCMS in America, and other churches though out the world. These conservative Churches teachings are very close to the Catholic teachings. The differences would be what caused the split during Martin Luther’s days.
Hope this helps.
In Christ
 
ryankeith77 said:
I have a question to ponder: Why would the Catholic Church, as part of it’s traditions, decide to publish the Bible if, as protestants commonly believe, the teachings of the Bible are contrary to the Church itself?

Catholic Bishops, with the help of the Holy Spirit, were the men who decided which documents would be called, “The Bible”!

Thus, the Bible itself is, in fact, Catholic Tradition!

Please correct me if I am wrong!
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You know… I was thinking the same thing tonight… the use of the bible, even the writings in the bible are Catholic tradition. that’s how we got them. 👍
 
zcharry said:
Do not get me wrong here. There is no smoking gun. All I’m saying is that the Catholic Church is trying to find common ground with these churches and has made agreements with them. However with a little digging the ELCA has a direction and beliefs that are way left of the Catholic Church. The Statements on the ECLA I gave you are back by their own statements over the years by clergy and professors in their Seminarys.
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So let me get this straight.

You are upset that we have made a joint declaration about what we CAN agree upon, but the stuff you quoted was not part of the joint declaration but statements by the ECLA and their own beliefs?
 
MariaG said:
So let me get this straight.

You are upset that we have made a joint declaration about what we CAN agree upon, but the stuff you quoted was not part of the joint declaration but statements by the ECLA and their own beliefs?
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Read their views on Atonement I posted earlier.
I m not upset, but why would the Catholic Church want to be in fellowship with a Church that has such different doctrine and is drifting even farther. The ELCA is part of the Joint Declaration and their statements on doctrine and beliefs directly affect that declaration.
 
zcharry said:
Read their views on Atonement I posted earlier.
I m not upset, but why would the Catholic Church want to be in fellowship with a Church that has such different doctrine and is drifting even farther. The ELCA is part of the Joint Declaration and their statements on doctrine and beliefs directly affect that declaration.
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No, the statement stands on it’s own.

It is saying, okay, we can agree on this. It in no way is endorsing anything else.

And if you read the statement, it clearly does not give any ground up on solidly scriptural Catholic teachings.

We can never be one as scripture constantly tells us to if we don’t start somewhere.
 
zcharry said:
Read their views on Atonement I posted earlier.
I m not upset, but why would the Catholic Church want to be in fellowship with a Church that has such different doctrine and is drifting even farther. The ELCA is part of the Joint Declaration and their statements on doctrine and beliefs directly affect that declaration.
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Again, jumping in late, sorry.

Perhaps you should research the charter of the Church.

Lk 5:

31: And Jesus answered them, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick;

32: I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

Perhaps the ELCA is in need of the most help. Shouldn’t we get to them before they drift completely off the ends of the earth?
 
MariaG said:
No, the statement stands on it’s own.

It is saying, okay, we can agree on this. It in no way is endorsing anything else.

And if you read the statement, it clearly does not give any ground up on solidly scriptural Catholic teachings.

We can never be one as scripture constantly tells us to if we don’t start somewhere.
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But they (ELCA) state to one thing and preach another. It has nothing to do what is said on paper, but everything to do with how they act.
Yes the paper says they agree on this one thing, but the reality is if you were to do a little digging you would come to find out that a lot of churchs in the LWF do not teach what this one thing says they agree on.

I m not saying the Catholic Church is wrong to find fellowship with other churches, I think that is great, I just question why they would let a church on paper agree to such an important part of Christian faith, but in reality they hold to a different view.
 
zcharry said:
Do not get me wrong here. There is no smoking gun. All I’m saying is that the Catholic Church is trying to find common ground with these churches and has made agreements with them. However with a little digging the ELCA has a direction and beliefs that are way left of the Catholic Church. The Statements on the ECLA I gave you are back by their own statements over the years by clergy and professors in their Seminarys.
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I understand your concern, and I share it, to a point. The Catholic Church wants dialog to continue, and to identify those areas in which agreement can be had. But make no mistake about this: The ultimate goal of this ecumenistic approach is reunion of the Protestants within the Catholic Church and under the authority of the bishops. I seriously doubt we’re having any bending of Catholic True Doctrines in order to accomodate heretical teachings. Still, I’m gonna study that Justification document. I’d heard of it, but am not familiar with its scope.
 
zcharry said:
Read their views on Atonement I posted earlier.
I m not upset, **but why would the Catholic Church want to be in fellowship with a Church that has such different doctrine **and is drifting even farther. The ELCA is part of the Joint Declaration and their statements on doctrine and beliefs directly affect that declaration.
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Define “fellowship.” A type of “fellowship” is obvious, because we’re all Christians, but Catholics are not in communion with those Lutherans, or any other Protestants who refuse to bring themselves under the authority of the bishops Jesus placed over them. That doesn’t mean we don’t want dialog to continue, and efforts made to identify the areas in which we do agree. We hope and pray that in time these separated brethren will come to their senses and realize what they’re missing by staying outside of communion with the Church, and under the authority of Peter’s successors.
 
zcharry said:
But they (ELCA) state to one thing and preach another. It has nothing to do what is said on paper, but everything to do with how they act.
Yes the paper says they agree on this one thing, but the reality is if you were to do a little digging you would come to find out that a lot of churchs in the LWF do not teach what this one thing says they agree on.

I m not saying the Catholic Church is wrong to find fellowship with other churches, I think that is great, I just question why they would let a church on paper agree to such an important part of Christian faith, but in reality they hold to a different view.
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We cannot be held responsible for a church that chooses to agree to a joint declaration, but then goes and teaches something else. We can only reach out in good faith, declare what we believe and trust that the other parties will do the same.

This is a discussion that you should be holding on a ELCA board, and call them to account for their differing stated beliefs.

Respectfully,
Maria
 
I feel that many Protestants aren’t really referring to Oral tradition but something else.
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Yes …

As far as dissent goes, you have the Coronation and Assumption of Miriam, the papacy, of course, and a lot of the disagreement stems from the mere idea the ecclesiastical Tradition should be set on par with the Scriptures …

As far as traditions that many Protestants would probably go head over heels for, there’s:

Palm Sunday, Lent, and other such special seasons/days …

My mom’s boss’s wife, Andria, is a very cool Lutheran woman, and we were talking the other day, and she brought up a Protestant she knew who didn’t even know what Palm Sunday was! She was agast. She went into vivid detail, explaining the crosses you can make out of palms (I have one hanging in my room still) and whatnot … I laughed as I listened. Lutherans are still relatively close to the CC in regards to their zeal for Tradition. I don’t think non-traditional Protestants are far from hope, though … 🙂
 
Acts 004:010 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
004:011 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
004:012 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. KJV 1611

10 Be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God hath raised from the dead, even by him this man standeth here before you whole.

11 This is the stone which was rejected by you the builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved.<----------Douay-Rheims Bible
 
truthnlight said:
Acts 004:010 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
004:011 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
004:012 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. KJV 1611

10 Be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God hath raised from the dead, even by him this man standeth here before you whole.

11 This is the stone which was rejected by you the builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved.<----------Douay-Rheims Bible
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And your point is?
 
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