Protestants, who have been around awhile, question about the Virgin Mary

[Patavium]

Ok, let’s proceed slowly.

Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, “full of grace” through God was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:

The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.
Catechism of the Catholic Church # 491

The dogma says that Mary, like any of us, did indeed need Saviour. In Luke 1:47 she referred God as her Saviour and Catholics believe that God did save her through the merits of her Divine Son, Christ. God granted her, and only her, this special privilege – she was born immaculate. Catholics also believe that by God’s Grace she committed no sin in her earthly life (Catechism of the Catholic Church # 411).

All of these will certainly irritate most (or all) Protestants and “Bible only” Christians. Their two standard questions are: “Where does the Bible say that?” and “why was it declared in 1854?”. To answer the latter, the dogma of Immaculate Conception belongs to what the Catholic Church refers as development of doctrine: “The tradition which comes from the apostles develops in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit. For there is a growth in the understanding of the realities and the words which have been handed down (Dei Verbum 8). To answer the former, let’s look at the following verse:

I will put enmity between you [devil] and the woman, and between your seed and her seed

Genesis 3:15

Generally Christians agree that this verse is proto-evangelicum (first gospel), the woman and her seed prophesy Mary and her divine Son – note that both of them are in enmity with the devil. Christ, being sinless (1 John 3:5), is obviously in enmity with the devil. Suppose Mary committed sin in her life, even only once, then she cannot fulfil Genesis 3:15 – Scripture says “who commits sin is of the devil” (1 John 3:8). The reason why we commit sin is because we inherit original sin from Adam – we were born with inclination to sin. As Mary did not commit any sin then she must also be preserved from Original sin as well. Keep in mind that her special state comes from God’s Grace, not from herself as she is only human. According to Scripture she is the only human to whom God gives the fullness of His Grace. The angel greeted her: “Hail, full of grace” (Luke 1:28). The Greek word translated (in RSV) as “full of grace” is kecharitomen. It is the passive form of perfect participle conjugate of the verb charito, which means to give grave. Thus she was given fullness of God’s Grace and it always remained with her.

How to reconcile this dogma with Romans 3:23: all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God?. Well, does the word “all” (Greek pas) here means “absolute all” or does not allow any exception? Even Protestants and “Bible only” Christians believe that babies and children who lived and died before age of reason were sinless – i.e. they are exempted from Romans 3:23. As a parallel, consider Hebrews 9:27: it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment (emphasis added). Yet we know Lazarus (John 11:1-44) died twice while Enoch (Hebrews 11:5) never dies.

 

[Patavium]

Now, the other argument is

It is important for us to recall that New Covenant fulfillments are always more glorious and more perfect than their Old Testament types, which are “but a shadow of the good things to come” in the New Covenant (Heb. 10:1). With this in mind, let us consider the revelation of Mary as the “New Eve.” After the fall of Adam and Eve in Genesis 3, God promised the advent of another “woman” in Genesis 3:15, or a “New Eve” who would oppose Lucifer, and whose “seed” would crush his head. This “woman” and “her seed” would reverse the curse, so to speak, that the original “man” and “woman” had brought upon humanity through their disobedience.

It is most significant here to note “Adam” and “Eve” are revealed simply as “the man” and “the woman” before the woman’s name was changed to “Eve” (Hebrew, “mother of the living”) after the fall (see Gen. 2:21ff). When we then look at the New Covenant, Jesus is explicitly referred to as the “last Adam,” or the “New Adam” in 1 Cor. 15:45. And Jesus himself indicates that Mary is the prophetic “woman” or “New Eve” of Genesis 3:15 when he refers to his mother as “woman” in John 2:4 and 19:26. Moreover, St. John refers to Mary as “woman” eight times in Revelation 12. As the first Eve brought death to all of her children through disobedience and heeding the words of the ancient serpent, the devil, the “New Eve” of Revelation 12 brings life and salvation to all of her children through her obedience. The same “serpent” who deceived the original woman of Genesis is revealed, in Revelation 12, to fail in his attempt to overcome this new woman. The New Eve overcomes the serpent and as a result, “The serpent is angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God, and bear testimony to Jesus” (Rev. 12:17).

If Mary is the New Eve and New Testament fulfillments are always more glorious than their Old Testament antecedents, it would be unthinkable for Mary to be conceived in sin. If she were, she would be inferior to Eve who was created in a perfect state, free from all sin.

 

[Patavium]

And [the angel Gabriel] came to [Mary] and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.” (Luke 1:28-30)

Many Protestants will insist this text to be little more than a common greeting of the Archangel Gabriel to Mary. “What does this have to do with Mary being without sin?” Yet, the truth is, according to Mary herself, this was no common greeting. The text reveals Mary to have been “greatly troubled at the saying and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be” (Luke 1:29, emphasis added). What was it about this greeting that was so uncommon for Mary to react this way? We can consider at least two key.aspects.

First, according to biblical scholars (as well as Pope John Paul II), the angel did more than simply greet Mary. The angel actually communicated a new name or title to her. (cf. Redemptoris Mater, 8, 9). In Greek, the greeting was kaire, kekaritomene, or “Hail, full of grace.” Generally speaking, when one greeted another with kaire, a name or title would be found in the immediate context. “Hail, king of the Jews” in John 19:3 and “Claudias Lysias, to his Excellency the governor Felix, greeting” (Acts 23:26) are two biblical examples of this. The fact that the angel replaces Mary’s name in the greeting with “full of grace” was anything but common. This would be analogous to me speaking to one of our tech guys at Catholic Answers and saying, “Hello, he who fixes computers.” In Hebrew culture, names and name changes tell us something permanent about the character and calling of the one named. Just recall the name changes of Abram to Abraham (from “father” to “father of the multitudes”) in Genesis 17:5, Saray to Sarah (“my princess” to “princess”), in Genesis 17:15 and Jacob to Israel (“supplanter” to “he who prevails with God”) in Genesis 32:28.

In each case, the names reveal something permanent about the one named. Abraham and Sarah transition from being a “father” and “princess” of one family to being “father” and “princess” or “mother” of the entire people of God (see Rom. 4:1-18; Is. 51:1-2). They become patriarch and matriarch of God’s people forever. Jacob/Israel becomes the patriarch whose name, “he who prevails with God,” continues forever in the Church, which is called “the Israel of God” (Gal. 6:16). The People of God will forever “prevail with God” in the image of the patriarch Jacob.

What’s in a name? According to Scripture, quite a lot.

St. Luke uses the perfect passive participle, kekaritomene, as his “name” for Mary. This word literally means “she who has been graced” in a completed sense. This verbal adjective, “graced,” is not just describing a simple past action. Greek has another tense for that. The perfect tense is used to indicate that an action has been completed in the past resulting in a present state of being. “Full of grace” is Mary’s name. So what does it tell us about Mary? Well, the average Christian is not completed in grace and in a permanent sense (see Phil. 3:8-12). But according to the angel, Mary is. You and I sin, not because of grace, but because of a lack of grace, or a lack of our cooperation with grace, in our lives. This greeting of the angel is one clue into the unique character and calling of the Mother of God. Only Mary is given the name “full of grace” and in the perfect tense, indicating that this permanent state of Mary was completed.

 

[david_ruiz]

Ok, let’s proceed slowly.

 

[david_ruiz]

Ok, let’s proceed slowly.

Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, “full of grace” through God was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:

The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.
Catechism of the Catholic Church # 491

The dogma says that Mary, like any of us, did indeed need Saviour. In Luke 1:47 she referred God as her Saviour and Catholics believe that God did save her through the merits of her Divine Son, Christ. God granted her, and only her, this special privilege – she was born immaculate. Catholics also believe that by God’s Grace she committed no sin in her earthly life (Catechism of the Catholic Church # 411).

All of these will certainly irritate most (or all) Protestants and “Bible only” Christians. Their two standard questions are: “Where does the Bible say that?” and “why was it declared in 1854?”. To answer the latter, the dogma of Immaculate Conception belongs to what the Catholic Church refers as development of doctrine: “The tradition which comes from the apostles develops in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit. For there is a growth in the understanding of the realities and the words which have been handed down (Dei Verbum 8). To answer the former, let’s look at the following verse:

I will put enmity between you [devil] and the woman, and between your seed and her seed

Genesis 3:15

Generally Christians agree that this verse is proto-evangelicum (first gospel), the woman and her seed prophesy Mary and her divine Son – note that both of them are in enmity with the devil. Christ, being sinless (1 John 3:5), is obviously in enmity with the devil. Suppose Mary committed sin in her life, even only once, then she cannot fulfil Genesis 3:15 – Scripture says “who commits sin is of the devil” (1 John 3:8). The reason why we commit sin is because we inherit original sin from Adam – we were born with inclination to sin. As Mary did not commit any sin then she must also be preserved from Original sin as well. Keep in mind that her special state comes from God’s Grace, not from herself as she is only human. According to Scripture she is the only human to whom God gives the fullness of His Grace. The angel greeted her: “Hail, full of grace” (Luke 1:28). The Greek word translated (in RSV) as “full of grace” is kecharitomen. It is the passive form of perfect participle conjugate of the verb charito, which means to give grave. Thus she was given fullness of God’s Grace and it always remained with her.

How to reconcile this dogma with Romans 3:23: all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God?. Well, does the word “all” (Greek pas) here means “absolute all” or does not allow any exception? Even Protestants and “Bible only” Christians believe that babies and children who lived and died before age of reason were sinless – i.e. they are exempted from Romans 3:23. As a parallel, consider Hebrews 9:27: it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment (emphasis added). Yet we know Lazarus (John 11:1-44) died twice while Enoch (Hebrews 11:5) never dies.

Thank-you .Do I have this right , you are saying the only ones to have enmity with the devil is Mary and Jesus ? Do you say enmity between Eve and the devil also ?

 

[brumano]

Then why does evryone worry to hurry up and baptize a baby in case they die ,like they would not enter heaven.,. Doesn’t quite match .Little children do reason and are full of trust and uncomplications ,but are at the age of reasoning ,I do not think He was referring to newborns do you ? Anyways , those are my words(reason beautifully). Scripture says" the glory of God" , Does a fallen newborn equal the glory of God ?

Well not everyone does hurry up, some think it’s a more a matter of reasoned choice than a gift that is accepted in the Church. We do because we believe baptism is not only the cleansing away of the punishment from original sin but because it’s the spiritual birthing into the life of God that has blessings for a lifetime, which will be recalled at the rite Christian Burial, much of this is bestowed by God, as inarguably the Scriptures show that Baptism is from above, and co authored by the parents and the Godparents who of course want protection from every danger for their child. That concern is not unwarranted because of an enemy that tries to attack even a new born baby; in the Scriptures we see that this enemy did not wait until Christ was even born to try to kill Him, did he? The Church doesn’t ignore Circumcision as a template, or precursor of Baptism that is ordered by God in Gen.c17v10 thru 27 to be done when males reach 8days old, and in vs 26&27 Abraham, Isaac and all the males of his household are circumcised in the “the very same day”.

A newborn is fallen only in his or her human nature not in their will; Jas.c1, v13,14,15. Whatever you mean by a fallen newborn, no they do not equal the “Glory of God” but no one does equal it; but so they have a closer resemblance, innocence, that is a reflection of the Glorious God.

 

[david_ruiz]

According to Scripture she is the only human to whom God gives the fullness of His Grace. The angel greeted her: “Hail, full of grace” (Luke 1:28). The Greek word translated (in RSV) as “full of grace” is kecharitomen. It is the passive form of perfect participle conjugate of the verb charito, which means to give grave. Thus she was given fullness of God’s Grace and it always remained with her.

For most of church history ,only some Catholics believed this view of the greek.It is not “hapax, the” only time use of this root word for grace. Furthermore ,the angel says Mary " found" grace with God (very old testament happening ).The angel does not say you were born with it ,but you found it , as did other patriarchs ,with faith and humility before God.,Most translations have it Mary was "highly favored,amongst women ". She is amongst women, not above or separated from .She is “among” women, fallen women. .

How to reconcile this dogma with Romans 3:23: all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God?. Well, does the word “all” (Greek pas) here means “absolute all” or does not allow any exception? Even Protestants and “Bible only” Christians believe that babies and children who lived and died before age of reason were sinless – i.e. they are exempted from Romans 3:23. As a parallel, consider Hebrews 9:27: it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment (emphasis added). Yet we know Lazarus (John 11:1-44) died twice while Enoch (Hebrews 11:5) never dies.

Sounds reasonable . I wonder how many exemptions there are to God’s word ? At least the few you mentioned you know for sure because they are “written” .You can not say it is written that mary is an exception ,past ,present and future sinless-perfect ,better than Eve.It is not written .at least not as plainly as lazarus rising from his “sleep”.I will acknowledge you try to anchor the doctrine on scripture ,but it is NOT plain ,and the opposite is more easily found in scripture. That indeed she was a highly favored , devout, young virgin maiden , in the line of David. She was a devout Jew, understood what Gabriel meant ,for she had been taught well in the promises of God.

 

[kellerk]

And [the angel Gabriel] came to [Mary] and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.” (Luke 1:28-30)

Many Protestants will insist this text to be little more than a common greeting of the Archangel Gabriel to Mary. “What does this have to do with Mary being without sin?” Yet, the truth is, according to Mary herself, this was no common greeting. The text reveals Mary to have been “greatly troubled at the saying and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be” (Luke 1:29, emphasis added). What was it about this greeting that was so uncommon for Mary to react this way? We can consider at least two key.aspects.

First, according to biblical scholars (as well as Pope John Paul II), the angel did more than simply greet Mary. The angel actually communicated a new name or title to her. (cf. Redemptoris Mater, 8, 9). In Greek, the greeting was kaire, kekaritomene, or “Hail, full of grace.” Generally speaking, when one greeted another with kaire, a name or title would be found in the immediate context. “Hail, king of the Jews” in John 19:3 and “Claudias Lysias, to his Excellency the governor Felix, greeting” (Acts 23:26) are two biblical examples of this. The fact that the angel replaces Mary’s name in the greeting with “full of grace” was anything but common. This would be analogous to me speaking to one of our tech guys at Catholic Answers and saying, “Hello, he who fixes computers.” In Hebrew culture, names and name changes tell us something permanent about the character and calling of the one named. Just recall the name changes of Abram to Abraham (from “father” to “father of the multitudes”) in Genesis 17:5, Saray to Sarah (“my princess” to “princess”), in Genesis 17:15 and Jacob to Israel (“supplanter” to “he who prevails with God”) in Genesis 32:28.

In each case, the names reveal something permanent about the one named. Abraham and Sarah transition from being a “father” and “princess” of one family to being “father” and “princess” or “mother” of the entire people of God (see Rom. 4:1-18; Is. 51:1-2). They become patriarch and matriarch of God’s people forever. Jacob/Israel becomes the patriarch whose name, “he who prevails with God,” continues forever in the Church, which is called “the Israel of God” (Gal. 6:16). The People of God will forever “prevail with God” in the image of the patriarch Jacob.

What’s in a name? According to Scripture, quite a lot.

St. Luke uses the perfect passive participle, kekaritomene, as his “name” for Mary. This word literally means “she who has been graced” in a completed sense. This verbal adjective, “graced,” is not just describing a simple past action. Greek has another tense for that. The perfect tense is used to indicate that an action has been completed in the past resulting in a present state of being. “Full of grace” is Mary’s name. So what does it tell us about Mary? Well, the average Christian is not completed in grace and in a permanent sense (see Phil. 3:8-12). But according to the angel, Mary is. You and I sin, not because of grace, but because of a lack of grace, or a lack of our cooperation with grace, in our lives. This greeting of the angel is one clue into the unique character and calling of the Mother of God. Only Mary is given the name “full of grace” and in the perfect tense, indicating that this permanent state of Mary was completed.

Wow, is all I can say! Let me tell you, I have been preparing for weeks to have this very conversation with my mother in law, who being from a strong Protestant background, had many questions regarding Mary. She just couldn’t understand why we pray to Mary when we can just go straight to Jesus. For me, I’m certainly not an expert, but I really tried my best…but the conversation unfortunately left more unanswered questions. I then come on here and came straight to your comments and there…there were the answers, worded perfectly. If I may ask you to emphasize on one point…and here’s the question as she has put it to me…“If Mary was sinless and perfect in heart, where did Jesus’ humanity come from?”. In other words, wouldn’t Jesus have to be part God part Man, receiving the man part from Mary, to have humanity? That’s the best way I can word it, I’m tired. Your opinion of this would be greatly appreciated.

 

[david_ruiz]

The perfect tense is used to indicate that an action has been completed in the past resulting in a present state of being

That can be said of ALL saints . We are born again, full of grace , like Stephen. The Lord looks over the earth to and fro, for where to lay His head . Will he find faith ? He found favor in Mary and vice-versa. Do we not find favor with God once reconciled and are seated in heavenly places ?

“Full of grace” is Mary’s name.

Poor Latin translation lends to “full of grace”. Most bibles have “highly favored amongst women”. All your points could be satisfied with Mary being so human ,a fallen human,but regenerated with a new inner “woman”. She was full of grace (not perfect), highly favored,and continued in that grace to the end .And she is called blessed , for she brought Him forth faithfully…not because she was perfect …

You and I sin, not because of grace, but because of a lack of grace, or a lack of our cooperation with grace, in our lives.

That is right , but your new man is perfectly justified before the Father who only sees His Son in us, not all these sins we keep confessing week after week. And yes, we all have new names, again, in heavenly places.And we can be filled (full) with the Spirit

 

[david_ruiz]

Wow, is all I can say! Let me tell you, I have been preparing for weeks to have this very conversation with my mother in law, who being from a strong Protestant background, had many questions regarding Mary. She just couldn’t understand why we pray to Mary when we can just go straight to Jesus. For me, I’m certainly not an expert, but I really tried my best…but the conversation unfortunately left more unanswered questions. I then come on here and came straight to your comments and there…there were the answers, worded perfectly. If I may ask you to emphasize on one point…and here’s the question as she has put it to me…“If Mary was sinless and perfect in heart, where did Jesus’ humanity come from?”. In other words, wouldn’t Jesus have to be part God part Man, receiving the man part from Mary, to have humanity? That’s the best way I can word it, I’m tired. Your opinion of this would be greatly appreciated.

ichthys.com/mail-Mary-full-of-grace.htm is good greek issue rebuttal

 

[Patavium]

David,

Let me try the Greek. Ok so in Greek I find the bible says

Luke 1:28 “Chaire, Kecharitomene” (translated in the Douay-Rheims and other Catholic versions as “Hail, Full of Grace” or “gratia plena” in the Latin Vulgate).

The translated text is from the Latin Vulgate

And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. Who having heard, was troubled at his saying and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. (Luke 1:27-30 Douay-Rheims)

The translated text from Greek to Latin Vulgate is

Latin Vulgate: et ingressus angelus ad eam dixit have gratia plena Dominus tecum benedicta tu in mulieribus quae cum vidisset turbata est in sermone eius et cogitabat qualis esset ista salutatio et ait angelus ei ne timeas Maria invenisti enim gratiam apud Deum.

I have bolded the translations the Latin Vulgate, the English, and Greek.

Note that Kecharitomene is formed from the root charitoo. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive pariticple. Kecharitomene translates to “having been” or “have already been”.

The perfect tense is greek is a past tense. The Greek perfect tense denotes the present state resultant upon a past action.

“There are seven tenses of the Greek verb. They are: the Aorist, Present, Imperfect, Future, Pluperfect, and Future Perfect. Let us exemplify the Perfect and Present tenses. In the words of the Greek grammarian J. Gresham Machen, ‘The Greek perfect tense denotes the present state resultant upon a past action’ (New Testament Greek for Beginners, p. 187). The perfect is used in Matthew 4:4,7,10 (‘it is written’). Literally translated, ‘It has been written in the past and is still in force.’ Hence, Jesus expresses the continuing authority of God’s written law by using the perfect tense.” (biblequestions.org/Archives/BQAR264.htm)

In other words, the perfect tense in Greek is a past tense with a special meaning: it is used to refer to a past action which has effects felt in the present. So, here’s what some modern, English-speaking scholars tell us “Kecharitomene” denotes, based purely on the definition of the word and its grammatical usage:

" ‘Highly favoured’ (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians 1:6 . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena [full of grace] "is right, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast received’; wrong, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast to bestow’ " (A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, p. 14)

“It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.” (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament).

Luke 1:28 uses a special conjugated form of “charitoo.” It uses “kecharitomene,” while (for example) Ephesians 1:6 uses “echaritosen,” which is a different form of the verb “charitoo.” Echaritosen means “he graced” (or bestowed grace). Echaritosen signifies a momentary action, an action brought to pass (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, p. 166). Whereas, Kecharitomene, the perfect passive participle, shows a completeness with a permanent result. Kecharitomene denotes continuance of a completed action (H. W. Smyth, Greek Grammar [Harvard Univ Press, 1968], p. 108-109, sec 1852:b; also Blass and DeBrunner, p. 175).

Ironically, that final definition is essentially coextensive with the Catholic understanding of the why of Mary’s sinlessness

Supreme Reason for the Privilege: The Divine Maternity

“And indeed it was wholly fitting that so wonderful a mother should be ever resplendent with the glory of most sublime holiness and so completely free from all taint of original sin that she would triumph utterly over the ancient serpent. To her did the Father will to give his only-begotten Son – the Son whom, equal to the Father and begotten by him, the Father loves from his heart – and to give this Son in such a way that he would be the one and the same common Son of God the Father and of the Blessed Virgin Mary. It was she whom the Son himself chose to make his Mother and it was from her that the Holy Spirit willed and brought it about that he should be conceived and born from whom he himself proceeds.”
(Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus)

However, I still haven’t really gotten to my argument: whatever the denotation of “chaire, Kecharitomene,” its connotation, what it actually meant to ancient Greek-speakers, is why it is communicating precisely that Mary was immaculately conceived.

The Greek Fathers

Here are a number of ancient experts and what they say it means; each of them is a Greek-speaker from a culture basically identical to that of St. Luke; there are a couple repeats from the previous thread, but from them I give new material, too; the passages are expositions by the authors of the meaning of Luke 1:28, generally centered on chaire, Kecharitomene:

Gregory Thaumaturgus (205-270 AD):

O purest one
O purest virgin
where the Holy Spirit is, there are all things readily ordered.
Where divine grace is present
the soil that, all untilled, bears bounteous fruit
in the life of the flesh, was in possession of the incorruptible citizenship,
and walked as such in all manner of virtues, and lived a life more excellent than man’s common standard
thou hast put on the vesture of purity
has selected thee as the holy one and the wholly fair;
and through thy holy, and chaste, and pure, and undefiled womb
since of all the race of man thou art by birth the holy one,
and the more honourable, and the purer, and the more pious than any other:
and thou hast a mind whiter than the snow, and a body made purer than any gold

Akathist hymn (5th or 6th century AD):

Hail, O you, through whom Joy will shine forth!
Hail, O you, through whom the curse will disappear!
Hail, O Restoration of the Fallen Adam!
Hail, O Redemption of the Tears of Eve!
Hail, O Peak above the reach of human thought!
Hail, O Depth even beyond the sight of angels!
Hail, O you who have become a Kingly Throne!
Hail, O you who carry Him Who Carries All!
Hail, O Star who manifest the Sun!
Hail, O Womb of the Divine Incarnation!
Hail, O you through whom creation is renewed!
Hail, O you through whom the Creator becomes a Babe!
Hail, O Bride and Maiden ever-pure!

Theodotus of Ancyra (early 5th century AD):

Hail, our desirable gladness;
Hail, O rejoicing of the churches;
Hail, O name that breathes out sweetness;
Hail, face that radiates divinity and grace;
Hail, most venerable memory;
Hail, O spiritual and saving fleece;
Hail, O Mother of unsetting splendor, filled with light;
Hail, unstained Mother of holiness;
Hail, most limpid font of the lifegiving wave;
Hail, new Mother, workshop of the birth.
Hail, ineffable mother of a mystery beyond understanding;
Hail, new book of a new Scripture, of which, as Isaiah tells, angels and men are faithful witnesses;
Hail, alabaster jar of sanctifying ointment;
Hail, best trader of the coin of virginity;
Hail, creature embracing your Creator;
Hail, little container containing the Uncontainable.
(Homily 4:3; PG 77:1391B-C; Gambero, page 267-8)

“In the place of Eve, an instrument of death, is chosen a Virgin, most pleasing to God and full of His grace, as an instrument of life. A Virgin included in woman’s sex, but without a share in woman’s fault. A Virgin innocent; immaculate; free from all guilt; spotless; undefiled; holy in spirit and body; a lily among thorns.” (Theodotus, Hom 6 in S. Deiparam, No 11; PG 77:1427A) or another translation: “Innocent virgin, spotless, without defect, untouched, unstained, holy in body and in soul, like a lily flower sprung among thorns, unschooled in the wickedness of Eve, unclouded by womanly vanity…Even before the Nativity, she was consecrated to the Creator…Holy apprentice, guest in the Temple, disciple of the law, anointed by the Holy Spirit, clothed with divine grace as with a cloak, divinely wise in your mind; united to God in your heart…Praiseworthy in your speech, even more praiseworthy in your action…God in the eyes of men, better in the sight of God.” (Theodotus, Hom 6:11; Gambero, page 268)

“What did the divine messenger do then? Perceiving the Virgin’s interior dispositions and perspicacity in her outward appearance and admiring her just prudence, he began to weave her a kind of floral crown with two peaks: one of joy and one of blessing; then he addressed her in a thrilling speech of praise, lifting up his hand and crying out: ‘Hail, O full of grace, the Lord is with you, you are blessed’ (Lk 1:28), O most beautiful and most noble among women. The Lord is with you, O all-holy one, glorious and good. The Lord is with you, O worthy of praise, O incomparable, O more than glorious, all splendor, worthy of God, worthy of all blessedness…Through you, Eve’s odious condition is ended; through you, abjection has been destroyed; through you, error is dissolved; through you, sorrow is abolished; through you, condemnation has been erased. Through you, Eve has been redeemed. He who is born of the holy [Virgin] is holy, holy and Lord of all the saints, holy and Giver of holiness. Wondrous is he who generated the Woman of wonder; Ineffable is he who precedes the Woman beyond words; Son of the Most High is he who springs from this highest creature, he who appears, not by man’s willing it, but by the power of the Holy Spirit; he who is born is not a mere man, but God, the incarnate Word.”
(Theodotus, On the Mother of God and on the Nativity; Patrologia orientalis 19:330-1; Gambero, page 271)

 

[Patavium]

ichthys.com/mail-Mary-full-of-grace.htm is good greek issue rebuttal

Unfortunately, he doesn’t refute that Kecharitomene is a perfect passive pariticple. Kecharitomene translates to “having been” or “have already been”. He compares it to echaritosen of Ephesian, which I have showed is an Aorist tense, very different meaning. His only last defense is saying that Catholics are reading too much into Kecharitomene?. However, the Early Fathers of Greek origin AGREE with Kecharitomene as sinlessness of Mary.

 

[Patavium]

That can be said of ALL saints . We are born again, full of grace , like Stephen. The Lord looks over the earth to and fro, for where to lay His head . Will he find faith ? He found favor in Mary and vice-versa. Do we not find favor with God once reconciled and are seated in heavenly places ? Poor Latin translation lends to “full of grace”. Most bibles have “highly favored amongst women”. All your points could be satisfied with Mary being so human ,a fallen human,but regenerated with a new inner “woman”. She was full of grace (not perfect), highly favored,and continued in that grace to the end .And she is called blessed , for she brought Him forth faithfully…not because she was perfect … That is right , but your new man is perfectly justified before the Father who only sees His Son in us, not all these sins we keep confessing week after week. And yes, we all have new names, again, in heavenly places.And we can be filled (full) with the Spirit

It is not poor latin translation. See my previous post which addresses this.

Also, I see you believe in Imputed righteousness (see bolded part)?

 

[Patavium]

Wow, is all I can say! Let me tell you, I have been preparing for weeks to have this very conversation with my mother in law, who being from a strong Protestant background, had many questions regarding Mary. She just couldn’t understand why we pray to Mary when we can just go straight to Jesus. For me, I’m certainly not an expert, but I really tried my best…but the conversation unfortunately left more unanswered questions. I then come on here and came straight to your comments and there…there were the answers, worded perfectly. If I may ask you to emphasize on one point…and here’s the question as she has put it to me…“If Mary was sinless and perfect in heart, where did Jesus’ humanity come from?”. In other words, wouldn’t Jesus have to be part God part Man, receiving the man part from Mary, to have humanity? That’s the best way I can word it, I’m tired. Your opinion of this would be greatly appreciated.

Friend,

Feel free to Private message me if you need help. May God Bless you!!

 

[Patavium]

David,

For the Genesis argument,

We agree that Genesis 3:15 means that there is to be constant moral warfare: Satan and his followers on the one hand, and Eve and her posterity on the other hand. The posterity of Eve will achieve a complete and final victory over Satan and his followers, even if it is wounded in the struggle. The posterity of Eve includes the Messiah, in whose power humanity will win a victory over Satan. Thus the passage is indirectly messianic.

The seed of the woman was understood as referring to the Redeemer, and thus the Mother of the Redeemer came to be seen in the woman. Since the second century this direct messianic-Marian interpretation has been expounded by individual Fathers, e.g. St. Irenaeus, St. Cyprian, St. Ephrem, St. Epiphanius, Isidore of Pelusium, St. Leo the Great, etc.

“The knot of Eve’s disobedience was untied by Mary’s obedience. What Eve bound through her unbelief, Mary loosed by her faith.”
(Irenaeus, Adv Haer 3:22; PG 7:959-60; Gambero, page 54)

“Adam had to be recapitulated in Christ, so that death might be swallowed up in immortality, and Eve in Mary, so that the Virgin, having become another virgin’s advocate, might destroy and abolish one virgin’s disobedience by the obedience of another virgin.” (Irenaeus, Proof of the Apostolic Preaching 33; Gambero, page 55)

“It is written in the prophet Isaiah…‘Behold a virgin shall conceive in her womb and bear a son…’ [Isa 7:14]…God had predicted that the seed destined to crush the head of the devil would come forth from a woman. In Genesis, it is written: ‘I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and hers. He will crush your head and you will strike at his heel’ [Gen 3:15].”
(Cyprian, Book of Testimonies 2:9; PL 4:704; Gambero, page 93)

“Because the serpent had struck Eve with his claw, the foot of Mary bruised him.”
(Ephraem, Diatessaron 10:13; Gambero, page 116-7)

According to this interpretation, Mary stands with Christ in a perfect and victorious enmity towards Satan and his following.

Many of the later scholastics and a great many modern theologians argue that Mary’s victory over Satan would not have been perfect, if she had ever been under his dominion. Consequently she must have entered this world without the stain of original sin. Pope Pius IX’s defining bull Ineffabilis Deus approves this messianic-marianic interpretation. It draws from it the inference that Mary, in consequence of her intimate association with Christ, “with Him and through Him had eternal enmity towards the poisonous serpent, triumphed in the most complete fashion over him, and crushed its head with her immaculate foot.”

It is sometimes mentioned at this point that while the Latin Vulgate (i.e. Douay-Rheims translation) indeed reads “she shall crush,” the original Hebrew of Genesis 3:15 reads “he [or it] shall crush” –

“I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.” (Genesis 3:15 Douay-Rheims; Latin Vulgate: inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem et semen tuum et semen illius ipsa conteret caput tuum et tu insidiaberis calcaneo eius)

“And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.” (Genesis 3:15 ASV; the KJV has “it”)

Despite the differences in translation, the early Fathers saw Mary and Christ together crushing the serpent’s head (Gen 3:15; cf. Romans 16:20; 1 Cor 15:22,25; Rev 12:1,17). Other Old Testament women who “crush the head” of enemies should be noted: Jael (cf. Judges 4-5) and Judith (OT book of Judith).

“Beyond general points of correspondence, the common denominator linking together the experiences of Jael and Judith is the violent downfall of God’s adversaries. Both women were chosen to strike down the commanding officer of enemy forces with a lethal blow to the head. The question that immediately presents itself to us is obvious: What possible connections could such brutal details have with the quiet life of Mary? In what specific way was she really like these biblical heroines? …[citing Genesis 3:15] With this promise, God announces far in advance of its fulfillment that the devil’s triumph in the Garden of Eden would eventually end in defeat, with his head being crushed or bruised under the trampling blows of the Messiah and His mother.”
**(Curtis Mitch, Catholic For a Reason II, page 56) **

 

[BornAgainRN]

Genesis 3:15

Generally Christians agree that this verse is proto-evangelicum (first gospel), the woman and her seed prophesy Mary and her divine Son – note that both of them are in enmity with the devil. Christ, being sinless (1 John 3:5), is obviously in enmity with the devil. Suppose Mary committed sin in her life, even only once, then she cannot fulfil Genesis 3:15 – Scripture says “who commits sin is of the devil” (1 John 3:8).

That is because the ‘Seed’ in Genesis 3:15 refers specifically to Jesus, not Jesus & Mary, which is why the ‘Seed’ is referred to as a “He.” Then in verse 16, God turns His attention to Eve. Psalm 89:4 confirms that the ‘Seed’ specifically refers to Jesus:

“I will establish YOUR SEED forever And build up your throne to all generations.” [fn]Selah."

The ‘Seed’ whose ‘throne’ of David’s that God will build up is Jesus, Who will one day sit on the throne of David forever.

The Greek word translated (in RSV) as “full of grace” is kecharitomen. It is the passive form of perfect participle conjugate of the verb charito, which means to give grave. Thus she was given fullness of God’s Grace and it always remained with her.

If ‘full of grace’ means that Mary was sinless, because Jesus is sinless & He was ‘full of grace’ (‘charis’), then does that mean that Stephen was sinless too, since he was ‘full of grace’ (Acts 6:8), since it’s the same Greek word for ‘grace’ (‘charis’)? This is why more modern translations choose the term ‘favored’ or ‘highly favored,’ instead of ‘grace,’ because the Greek word for ‘grace’ to describe Jesus & Stephen is a different Greek word than the one to describe Mary.

How to reconcile this dogma with Romans 3:23: all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God?. Well, does the word “all” (Greek pas) here means “absolute all” or does not allow any exception? Even Protestants and “Bible only” Christians believe that babies and children who lived and died before age of reason were sinless – i.e. they are exempted from Romans 3:23.

The word ‘all’ (‘pas’) means ‘some of all types,’ not necessarily ‘everyone’:

“Then Jerusalem was going out to him, and all Judea and all the district around the Jordan.”

Did ‘all’ come down from Judea & the Jordan? No, only ‘all’ of ‘certain’ people who led by the Holy Spirit to come. So, when it says ‘all’ have sinned, that would not include Jesus, Who was sinless. Even King David said that ‘in sin his mother CONCEIVED him’ (Psalm 51:5). So, although we are CONCEIVED in a sinful state, which has eternally separated us from God, God died on the cross for the sinful state of even the zygote, embryo, fetus, & newborn, who don’t have the mental ability to ‘actively’ reject Jesus as their Lord & Savior, which is what condemns a person:

“he who has DISBELIEVED shall be condemned.” (Mark 16:16b)

“he who does not believe (‘actively disbelieved’) has been judged already, because he has not believed (‘chosen not to believe’) in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” (John 3:18b)

This is why King David was assured that he would see his 7 seven day old son in Heaven, who died, despite that he wasn’t circumcised (8th day), & why Jesus said it would have been better if Judas had not have been BORN. Scripture says Judas is in Hell. If he had not have been BORN, he would have went to Heaven, because He wouldn’t have had the ability to ‘actively’ betray & reject Christ. There are other examples in the Bible, which support that if a baby dies (in or out of the womb) that they go straight to Heaven, into the loving arms of God. PRAISE THE LORD!

As a parallel, consider Hebrews 9:27: it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment (emphasis added). Yet we know Lazarus (John 11:1-44) died twice while Enoch (Hebrews 11:5) never dies.

Elijah also did not die, but was carried up to Heaven in a chariot of fire in a whirlwind. The writer of Hebrews is talking about permanent death & receiving a glorified body & then coming back. Although Lazarus was dead, he was ‘resuscitated’ by Jesus - he had not been ‘glorified’ yet. Also, Lazarus died PRIOR to Jesus’ death & resurrection. The writer of Hebrews wrote AFTER Jesus’ death & resurrection. At the Rapture, when both the dead AND the living are ‘caught up’ to Heaven to meet the Lord in the air, people will go to Heaven without dying, & be glorified, & won’t face a ‘second death.’

 

[Patavium]

kellerk,

God will become flesh by being born of the Woman (Gal 4:4) who with the Savior will crush the cobra’s head (Gen 3:15; cf. Col 2:15; Rom 16:20; Heb 2:14; 1 John 3:8). He made a Woman who will separate God and sin, that there would be “great enmity” between the Woman and the serpent. So from the first moment of her conception, the Woman (Eve created without sin, Mary the New Eve conceived without sin) was preserved from sin, preserved by the grace of God from even falling into the serpent’s grasp.

God became a divine person, God and Man. He would have eyes, nose, ears, lips, and body, yet be fully God. To be the New Adam, He needed to experience Eden as well. It was appropriate that He have a place that was pure, without the effects of sin. The womb of Mary was His Eden. In order for this to happen, Mary herself would have the choice of bringing this Child into the world.

God made man with free will. If He did so, He would have to make Mary, even though immaculately conceived by the grace of God, have free will as well. So that there would be no destruction of human dignity, He also asked Mary if she would, with her own free will, make God flesh.And so God sent His messenger Gabriel to Nazareth.

 

[Patavium]

If ‘full of grace’ means that Mary was sinless, because Jesus is sinless & He was ‘full of grace’ (‘charis’), then does that mean that Stephen was sinless too, since he was ‘full of grace’ (Acts 6:8), since it’s the same Greek word for ‘grace’ (‘charis’)? This is why more modern translations choose the term ‘favored’ or ‘highly favored,’ instead of ‘grace,’ because the Greek word for ‘grace’ to describe Jesus & Stephen is a different Greek word than the one to describe Mary.
’

Mary’s grace was perfect. She always had it, and therefore never sinned.

Stephen’s grace was full but not perfect. He did not always have it, and before his reception of the fullness of grace, he was a sinner.

We are like Stephen; sinners who seek a fullness of grace. This is why we sometimes ask Mary for her intercession; because she always had it.

Also read my discussion on the Greek translation, which you missed in your reply. I believe it will change your opinion.

I will get to the other arguments later, Steve.

Be Blessed.

 

[BornAgainRN]

Mary’s grace was perfect. She always had it, and therefore never sinned.

Stephen’s grace was full but not perfect. He did not always have it, and before his reception of the fullness of grace, he was a sinner.

We are like Stephen; sinners who seek a fullness of grace. This is why we sometimes ask Mary for her intercession; because she always had it.

Also read my discussion on the Greek translation, which you missed in your reply. I believe it will change your opinion.

I will get to the other arguments later, Steve.

Be Blessed.

I respect the fact that you believe that Mary was sinless, but the point was that since this belief that Mary was sinless is based on the angel Gabriel saluting Mary by saying “Hail! Mary, full of grace!” [or 'Rejoice (or ‘Greetings!,’ Mary, you are favored!] in the Bible, when if ‘grace’ implies sinlessness, because Jesus was ‘full of grace’ & sinless, then why don’t you believe that Stephen was sinless too, since he was ‘full of grace,’ which uses the same Greek word for ‘grace’ as Jesus, but Mary’s word for ‘grace’ is different, which means ‘favored’? And Stephen was described of being ‘full of grace’ while he was alive.

I also respect that you ask Mary to pray for you, but Jesus tells us when we pray, to pray ‘this way’: “Our FATHER.” And, the writer of Hebrews gives us encouragement to “draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.” It’s more encouraging for me to know that I go directly to God’s throne when I pray though Jesus, our High Priest, Intercessor, & ONLY Mediator between man & God, which is only possible, because Jesus is not only God in the presence of man, but also man in the presence of God.

I actually read your Greek translation, BTW, but with all due respect, I think you’re not quite understanding the meaning of the word grace, which means ‘unmerited, or unearned, FAVOR.’ Mary was ‘full of grace’ or ‘favored’ because out of all the women in Israel, God could have chosen, He picked Mary to fulfill Isaiah’s prophecy & bring our Lord miraculously into the world, proving that it wasn’t a normal human birth, but a Divine one!

God bless you too!

 

[JustaServant]

A Few thoughts on Mary and the Great Cloud of Witnesses.
1.
Is God the God of the dead or the living? Are those in Heaven living or dead?
Becoming Catholic again created a strange situation for me.
What about Mary and the Saints?
Even as a flaming fundamentalist I knew better than to say Catholics worshipped Mary, mainly because I grew up Catholic and knew that wasn‘t true. But wasn’t PRAYING to Mary and the Saints ‘worship’? For almost twenty years I heard about ‘Marian idolatry’.
In my younger years I bought into the ’Two Babylons’ lie that ‘Mary and saint worship’ came from Babylon. I would often hear that “Catholics pray to dead people.” Even after I dismissed the anti-Catholic lies, I was still uncomfortable with praying to Mary or any other saint. Are saints mere “dead people”? Was Jesus was practicing witchcraft at the transfiguration?
How did God break through that wall?
It began with understanding how the early Church, and the Hebrews in particular dealt with the subject of death and the afterlife.
In the modern world, when somebody dies, its as if they cease to exist. They are spoken of in the past tense, they were alive once, but now they are dead, gone, they cease to exist. We print their obituaries in the newspaper, show old pictures or film of them and talk about OUR memories.
In the ancient world, and in many parts of the world today, this is unknown. To the Hebrews, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were just not some names in history, they were part of a Covenant that transcended time itself.
God called Himself the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is the God of the Living, not of the dead. Hebrew ancestors were NEVER spoken of as some forgotten point of history, but as a LIVING part of the Covenant.
In the early church, this thinking never changed.
When a Christian died in the Early Church, they ‘fell asleep’. They were never spoken of as just ‘dead’. Hebrews 12:1 says “Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,”
Those who have gone on before us are more alive than ever! We have the hope of the resurrection, so our EXPECTATION is that we will see them again. The Church is more than we can physically see.
Since we are all one Body of Christ, we are connected to each other by the Holy Spirit. Our deceased loved ones do not cease being part of the church just because they have gone on before us. They are STILL part of the Church and remain ‘on the church membership rolls’. We join hands with them spiritually as part of the mystical Body of Christ.
If the Saints are those who share in eternal life in Christ and full communion with God, then the Saints are living in a much more real way than those left on the earth. Catholics believe in a SPIRITUAL church, not just a physical one.
The saints are still alive in Christ and part of our worship.
Revelation shows the saints in heaven bring before the Lamb the prayers of the saints on earth. They are concerned over what is happening on this planet.God told us to ask others to intercede for us. Consider, only the righteous are in heaven. And Scripture says that prayers of the righteous are efficacious.
Revelation tells us of those who have overcome are ruling and reigning with Christ. He shares His power and glory with His Saints, and they reign as kings and priests, offering up prayers and petitions on our behalf.