Protestants, who have been around awhile, question about the Virgin Mary

[tqualey]

Hi, GaryTaylor,

Great post!

The same St. Paul who said, “…all have sineed…” (Rom. 3:23) also said, “…like us in all things accept sin…” (Heb 4:15). Unless we understand what St. Paul is addressing - it would seem that he is contradicting himself by saying ‘all’ - which would include Christ, Himself!

Here is a helpful link: thecatholictreasurechest.com/all.htm

God bless

Humans can’t save themselves, Mary is human, therefore, Mary needed the Savior many would claim more than anyone because of Her faith which is relevant to the Incarnation. Or from St Irenaeus “Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race.”

All have sinned of course has to be viewed in content/context of entire Scripture, here ALL has various meanings. So in this sense we can’t automatically assign ALL to literally mean ALL.

However, With the IC God saved Mary before she was stained by sin, so subjection to being saved by God is still relevant. So Mary not only needed a Savior, She gave birth to the Savior by His predestined will.

The basis of the arguement becomes what would have been the most fitting way to accomplish this? The IC is sound doctrine. As far back as we can view recorded Christian history Mary was always considered Immaculate, free of all spot or stain. This also being the definition of Immaculate.

 

[david_ruiz]

Hi, GaryTaylor,

Great post!

The same St. Paul who said, “…all have sineed…” (Rom. 3:23) also said, “…like us in all things accept sin…” (Heb 4:15). Unless we understand what St. Paul is addressing - it would seem that he is contradicting himself by saying ‘all’ - which would include Christ, Himself!

Here is a helpful link: thecatholictreasurechest.com/all.htm

God bless

You cut the verse short ,it says," all have sinned AND fallen short of the glory of God". .Jesus is not an exception to himself. Christ is not included because he is God . All men have sinned and fall short of the glory of Jesus.

 

[david_ruiz]

Hi, David,

Yu really need to reference your statements.

Here are three links that specifically contradicts your statement:

catholic.com/tracts/brethren-of-the-lord

catholic.com/documents/bad-aramaic-made-easy

cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=27h

This is not to say that there are not Protestant statements that Mary was not Ever Virgin - but, what is curious is that such a critical element must wait until the 16th Century - and then in contradiction to statements by Luther and Calvin who revered the Blessed Virgin Mary! Truly, what you have identified is just one more item of Protestant disorganization, error and discord over doctrine in a ‘Johnny-come-lately’ approach.

God bless

what statements would you like referenced ? Rebuttal or differing views did not wait till 16th century . A brother above gave a nice link to St Jerome and Helvidius ,discussing this same issue ,back in 4-5th century .

 

[david_ruiz]

David,

The VERY SAME arguments you are giving us here against the perpetual virginity of Mary were refuted by St. Jerome, himself many years ago.

Here: cin.org/users/james/files/helvidiu.htm

Thank-you .You helped my point that what I am saying is nothing new ,and has beeen debated for centuries ,even milennia. Ps-maybe you can help me .St.Jerome drops a few early fathers names suggesting they also had his Marion views ,yet Ignatius and and several others he named make zero mention of Mary. Am I missing something , or are there writings from these fathers no longer available to us ? I forgot all about their "debate’.It’s been a few years since I last read his response,very interesting.Thanks again.Did St Jerome believe in IC and Assumption. He is often quoted as saying “of her end no one knows” speaking of her death.

 

[david_ruiz]

I will find that post for you.

Discerned by whom is a good question .God is not a respecter of persons.He can illumine whom he wishes.I do not believe in a separation of these powers and gifts per say.In the end you are trusting in what others say,but being discerning about it. One chooses one over another. one says it is these men and another says no, it is these men . Both claim God’s illumination…Did Luther believe in Assumption,or even St Augustine and St.Jerome ?..Even if one says it is the church that discerns for us ,I would ask but what is the church but individual souls

 

[tqualey]

Hi, David Ruiz,

You have made a number of assumptions that simply do bear the test of genuine investigation.

When you state, "…I do not believe scripture to be ambiguous with “brothers and sisters .If you believe them to be cousins perhaps ,for why didn’t scripture just say cousins .” the underlying assumption is that you can dictate what language and words will be used by God, and that your personal interpretation of this Scripture is what will provide the real understanding of what is being communicated.

Why didn’t God do things that are more understandable? I guess this is what Faith is all about. Now, that Faith actually begins with believing Christ, Himself. When Christ said He would build His Church on Peter and gave Peter the Keys to the Gates of Heaven - either Christ’s words are believed or they are discarded as false. It is this Church that is guided by the Holy Spirit so that no error can be taught. The Catholic Church has always taught that Mary was conceived without sin, and remained Ever Virgin. This is evident in the teachings of the Early Church Fathers. Despite Luther’s and Calvin’s revolt - they both had a devotion to Mary (now lost to those who continue to protest the teaching of their original Protestant leaders!)

God’s Word is only abmiguous to those who have abandoned sound teaching and have taken upon themselves the idea that individuals can interpert Scripture. Just look at the confusion that has brought about 30,000+ competing denominations today.

God bless

Howdy.The NT is indeed historical,but much more. It is loaded with doctrine .There are a lot of derivatives though that can be had,perhaps because Christianity is not a religion,but a relationship.I thought the early church kept things simple,much more so than OT. …I do not believe scripture to be ambiguous with "brothers and sisters .If you believe them to be cousins perhaps ,for why didn’t scripture just say cousins .That is ambiguous .If you believe them to be half brothers that is less ambiguos but still not succint. If you believe them to be real brother and sisters , scripture is quite succint and calls them that .There are no other greek words that could be used succintly,as you could with cousins etc.Brother is brother in that case…The ambiguity only arises when the primary contextual meaning is passed over…To me from your point of view , half-brothers is the second most accurate rendering .There is still a problem there though due to the teaching that Joseph also was ever-virgin. So if one doesn’t believe that Joseph was previously married with chidren, the wife passing away , one is left with “cousins” as the 3rd alternative , but which is furthest from normal contextual rendering. Having said that I understand most Catholics then believe them to be cousins , children of Mary’s sister.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, David Ruiz,

Let me tell you about the authority to discern. Let’s start with Scripture

John 14:26

The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name—he will teach you everything and remind you of all that told you

John 15:26

“When the Advocate comes whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth that proceeds from the Father, he will testify to me.*

John 16:13

**But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth.h He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. **

Christ is talking to the Apostles - the First Bishops of the Catholic Church. It is the Church that discerns the Word of God because God has given it the power and authority of the Holy Spirit. And, it is this Church that has proclaimed under the guidance of the Holy Spirit that Mary was conceived without sin and remained Ever Virgin.

After the Apostolic Age - we have the entry of the Early Church Fathers. Here is a link you may find helpful addressing Mary’s Perpetual Virginity: christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/pv.html

The choice is yours, Daivd - everything is plainly in sight and has withstood the test of time because it is from God.

God bless

Discerned by whom is a good question .God is not a respecter of persons.He can illumine whom he wishes.I do not believe in a separation of these powers and gifts per say.In the end you are trusting in what others say,but being discerning about it. One chooses one over another. one says it is these men and another says no, it is these men . Both claim God’s illumination…Did Luther believe in Assumption,or even St Augustine and St.Jerome ?..Even if one says it is the church that discerns for us ,I would ask but what is the church but individual souls

 

[Patavium]

Thank-you .You helped my point that what I am saying is nothing new ,and has beeen debated for centuries ,even milennia. Ps-maybe you can help me .St.Jerome drops a few early fathers names suggesting they also had his Marion views ,yet Ignatius and and several others he named make zero mention of Mary. Am I missing something , or are there writings from these fathers no longer available to us ? I forgot all about their "debate’.It’s been a few years since I last read his response,very interesting.Thanks again.Did St Jerome believe in IC and Assumption. He is often quoted as saying “of her end no one knows” speaking of her death.

I am not sure if I made your point as you mention. Remember, back then there was only ONE Church, and when heresies (because of private interpretations just as today) appeared they were dealt by the one Church. Now, there are still heresies, but they have decided to form their own churches, and completely ignore the Church.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, David Ruiz,

It would appear that you did not look at the references I provided to you.

Actually, you have yet to reference any of the statements you make - so start wherever you like - anything would be an improvement.

God bless

what statements would you like referenced ? Rebuttal or differing views did not wait till 16th century . A brother above gave a nice link to St Jerome and Helvidius ,discussing this same issue ,back in 4-5th century .

 

[david_ruiz]

and have taken upon themselves the idea that individuals can interpert Scripture.

 

[david_ruiz]

Hi, David Ruiz,

Let me tell you about the authority to discern. Let’s start with Scripture

John 14:26

The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name—he will teach you everything and remind you of all that told you

John 15:26

“When the Advocate comes whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth that proceeds from the Father, he will testify to me.*

John 16:13

**But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth.h He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. **

Christ is talking to the Apostles - the First Bishops of the Catholic Church. It is the Church that discerns the Word of God because God has given it the power and authority of the Holy Spirit. And, it is this Church that has proclaimed under the guidance of the Holy Spirit that Mary was conceived without sin and remained Ever Virgin.

After the Apostolic Age - we have the entry of the Early Church Fathers. Here is a link you may find helpful addressing Mary’s Perpetual Virginity: christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/pv.html

The choice is yours, Daivd - everything is plainly in sight and has withstood the test of time because it is from God.

God bless

Epistle of John -Whom was he talking to when he said you have the holy unction and know all things (paraphrase) ? And the promises to the apostles ,were they not also for their disciples ? Are we not disciples ?

 

[Patavium]

David,

Heresies: catholic.com/tracts/the-great-heresies

The Circumcisers (1st Century)
Gnosticism (1st and 2nd Centuries)
Montanism (Late 2nd Century)
Sabellianism (Early 3rd Century)
Arianism (4th Century)
Pelagianism (5th Century)
Semi-Pelagianism (5th Century)
Nestorianism (5th Century)
Monophysitism (5th Century)
Iconoclasm (7th and 8th Centuries)
Catharism (11th Century)
Protestantism (16th Century)
Jansenism (17th Century)

 

[MartinJordan]

We are disciples. Not only that but we are also the priesthood. However there is the common priesthood and the ministerial priesthood. Like is seen in the OT. Jesus did not abolish but fulfill it. Meanwhile the Holy Spirit guides the ministerial priesthood ie Bishopric in all truth. So that through them the Truth will be revealed that Jesus is Lord and continues to guide them in all doctrinal matters.

There is a hierarchy in essence but also it is all in all a service to the Church ie common priesthood.

It is our duty therefore to adhere to what has been revealed. Obedience is integral so that the world will learn the Truth. Jesus said therefore to his Apostles to spread the Good News through them (the Ministerial Priesthood).

Granted I’m using a simplistic approach to above but you get the idea

MJ

 

[tqualey]

Hi, David Ruiz,

Christ was speaking to the Apostles as is plainly identifed in the John’s text.

The promise to the Apostles carries forward to their Successors. And, here is where the slight-of-hand word game can be unmaksed… Of course if we look at the word ‘disciple’ as ‘a learner’ or ‘beginner’ in following Christ, then Christians should match that rather well. But note, there is a difference between ‘Disciple’ and ‘Apostle’:

The disciples, in this disciples, in this context, are not the crowds of believers who flocked around Christ, but a smaller body of His followers. They are commonly identified with the seventy-two (seventy, according to the received Greek text, although several Greek manuscripts mention seventy-two, as does the Vulgate) referred to (Luke 10:1) as having been chosen by Jesus.

And, just to show you what I mean by a giving a citation for a reference that one can actually use - here is the link this came from: newadvent.org/cathen/05029a.htm

But, really, your argument breaks down along other and much more obvious lines understood by both believers and non-believers. God is One. Truth is One. Catholic doctrine taught by Christ and recorded in the NT is still taught by the Catholic Church. 30,000+ competing versions of Protestantism all claiming individual interpretation of Scripture has lead to chaos, division and the further fragmentation of the Body of Christ. The Holy Spirit is obviously not present because He does not promote fragmentation, disorder, competing claims, disunity or any of the other characteristics that anyone can easily see as present in today’s world of Protestantism.

Simply stated, claiming discipleship and then claiming to take the lead are contradictory claims. Christ identified the leadership role of His Apostles and then the Holy Spirit acting through these First Bishops directed the organization of the Chruch. Just read the sequence of events as given in the NT for yourself.

Finally, your argument about the intrepretation of Scripture in your previous post, “…all coming down to individuals…” is in direct conflict with this post! If you are waiting for the Finger of God to write down His Commands on stone tablets in the NT as He did in the OT - then you wait in vain. Christ founded His Chruch on Peter (Matt 16) and gave him the authority to bind and lose - and that is way God’s Commands take place today. Just take a peek at the work of the Early Church Fathers who came after the Apostles - we have God’s Word being made know and explained to all who would listen. Here is a link to provide you with some of the writings of these ECFs: catholicbible101.com/theearlychurchfathers.htm

Seriosly, David, just calling out objections as not substantiating them, while ignoring and evading what has been presented, is not a new approach. But, it is not an approach that will see you to the end.

God bless

Epistle of John -Whom was he talking to when he said you have the holy unction and know all things (paraphrase) ? And the promises to the apostles ,were they not also for their disciples ? Are we not disciples ?

 

[GaryTaylor]

There is no Marion “view” that is about the same as having a Jesus Christ “view”. There is the reality of what took place in Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, and Rome which were established shortly after Christs death, over 40 Apostolic Churchs by 100-AD. All of them have the same common truth with Mary, She is Immaculate. She is in the Liturgy of all the Apostolic Churchs and a good many are named after Her. The Epistles exist with documented evidence to support the content of what has been discussed here. Immaculate, Ever Virgin dates to the first Churchs.

At the Council of Chalcedon in 451, when bishops from throughout the Mediterranean world gathered in Constantinople, Emperor Marcian asked the Patriarch of Jerusalem to bring the relics of Mary to Constantinople to be enshrined in the capitol. The patriarch explained to the emperor that there were no relics of Mary in Jerusalem, that “Mary had died in the presence of the apostles; but her tomb, when opened later . . . was found empty and so the apostles concluded that the body was taken up into heaven.” Thus the Declaration by Pope Pius… “The Immaculate Mother of God, the ever-virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heaven.”

We have no eye witness account written of this event. “Memory of Mary” was marked in Palestine, but then it was extended by the emperor to all the churches of the East. St Athanasius documents and speaks of this in the Greek Church and Greek language. This later became the Dormition then of course the Assumption in defined. Thus the Feast day which is from Greece documented by 300.

We cannot enjoy the Blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave us as witness and honor in Mary, in willing Her to be the Mother of his only-begotten Son.

Perhaps if “England” had been more influenced by Wyclif and Luther than by Calvin and Cromwell, the Reformers might have shied away less sharply from Mary as a subject of study and stuck more to documented History. Calvin’s central contention that Mary’s ‘virtues and all her excellences are nothing other than the generosity of God’ was and is “incorrect”. Grace granted by God as a living witness should never be taken for granted. There resides the grave error as St Bellarmine clearly exposed. Who is John Calvin to speak for God? The correct view is as Augustine states, that if you read scripture and conclude something other the Church, than you must be misunderstanding God.

Until the reformation, Christianity honoured Mary that is the resounding Truth, in fact, honouring Mary was never contested but by heretics, the greatest Christians for 1500 years had consistently developed a love for Mary, precisely because of their love for her Son, not in spite of it. And as we see through time contemplation of these mysteries has yielded one result, closer and deeper worship of the Lord.

On the other hand Sola Scriptura has yielded a very different result. denial of history, hubristic and unrealistic claims, false prophets, more heretics and repeated heresy, which arise from a doctrine ironically, not scriptural.

The Church which gave you doctrines not found explicit in scripture, such as Theotokos, the Trinity, and the Canons, then if this Church is capable of making mistakes, than these doctrines may be wrong we must conclude. Perhaps its all a lie.

We are dealing with a Supernatural reality, in this case Jesus Christ, God. Either he built His Church exactly as He stated He would, which would lead to every indication of St Peters Succession, or the whole thing is a sham. One must reside in the realm of “coincidence” or believe Jesus Christ is exactly who He stated He was, and did exactly what He said He would. The growth of Church upon Christs death involved Mary, and after Marys death is no different that today. The Mysteries unfold as the Church continues as a Piligram of earth. just as they have with the Canons, Trinity. Theotokos, Assumption, etc etc etc.

The only mistake is the continued jockeying for Church authority which is already Biblically established. Since Christ mentioned Church but ONCE and gave the Keys to St Peter. The fact has contined to move foward through time and is a reality today despite the constant strident clamour of those who continue in vain to be disobediant while claiming true obedience or ignorance. Waiting for some sign by God to where the True Church is? Such nonsense which has been made self manifested on earth by Christ.

Mans slick talk has only complicated this path, there is no position of Honor with St Peter. Thats not Biblical nor can be proven historically only “assumed”. He was given the Keys period. In respect “He honors His Bishops” as a servant which is the proper understanding of justice thus humility.

I’ve never in my life met someone with a marian devotion that was not a shining example of God’s love. I’ve yet to witness this.

 

[kellerk]

Discerned by whom is a good question .God is not a respecter of persons.He can illumine whom he wishes.I do not believe in a separation of these powers and gifts per say.In the end you are trusting in what others say,but being discerning about it. One chooses one over another. one says it is these men and another says no, it is these men . Both claim God’s illumination…Did Luther believe in Assumption,or even St Augustine and St.Jerome ?..Even if one says it is the church that discerns for us ,I would ask but what is the church but individual souls

What is the church? I would say, The church is Jesus’ bride. I would say the church is established by Jesus and protected by the Holy Spirit. I would say the Church preserves what is the most sacred traditions held for centuries even unto the times of our Lord.
I would say that yes the church is subject to human error but trust that it is protected by the Holy Spirit as was promised by our Lord. I choose to trust that Jesus knows what He is doing and will always preserve His bride, the Church. Though, I will also state that if one does not wish to enter into the Fullness…it does not mean they cannot still ask Jesus into his heart and do great things in the name of our Lord. I view the CC as a way to a more fullness of faith, to receive all the graces afforded to us. That is also why I do pray the Rosary, it brings me closer, it fills me fuller, it graces me with a better relationship with Jesus. Ultimately, it comes down to your faith. Can you have faith in a perfect church run by imperfect humans? Was that not the intentions of Jesus?

 

[kellerk]

What is the church? I would say, The church is Jesus’ bride. I would say the church is established by Jesus and protected by the Holy Spirit. I would say the Church preserves what is the most sacred traditions held for centuries even unto the times of our Lord.
I would say that yes the church is subject to human error but trust that it is protected by the Holy Spirit as was promised by our Lord. I choose to trust that Jesus knows what He is doing and will always preserve His bride, the Church. Though, I will also state that if one does not wish to enter into the Fullness…it does not mean they cannot still ask Jesus into his heart and do great things in the name of our Lord. I view the CC as a way to a more fullness of faith, to receive all the graces afforded to us. That is also why I do pray the Rosary, it brings me closer, it fills me fuller, it graces me with a better relationship with Jesus. Ultimately, it comes down to your faith. Can you have faith in a perfect church run by imperfect humans? Was that not the intentions of Jesus?

I see it like we are all part of the Holy Family. Families disagree all the time, we don’t just run around disowning eachother all the time. You don’t just turn your back on your family, you work out your issues which in turn makes your relationship stronger. I would like to ask you this…If there was one thing you would change about the CC what would it be and why?

 

[Lost_and_Found_1]

The last verse in Revelation 11 is 11:19 and states, “Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a violent hailstorm.” This brings us to Revelation 12 and John sees the divine temple in the heavenly Jerusalem and the real Ark of the New Covenant. And that’s what he describes, he doesn’t just say, oh I see the Ark and let’s just forget about that and we’ll shift over to this woman. If he’s seeing the Ark, he’s describing the Ark and his description of the Ark is of the woman who bears the male child in verse 5, “She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod.” Now who is this? Some say it’s the OT synagogue daughter, Zion, others say it’s the Church. I’d say you’re both right but in addition to those truths, there’s a higher truth that ties them together and that is, this woman is the Blessed Virgin Mary. Why, because in this vision, there are 4 characters. There’s the woman, there’s the male child who is to rule the nations, there’s also Satan in the form of a dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns and there’s Michael the Archangel. Now we know the male child is Jesus, an individual person, but it’s also a symbol of the whole Davidic dynasty, because it quotes Psalm 2, verse 9, which is applicable to every Davidic king, most especially to Jesus. So it refers to Jesus but it also is a symbol of this corporate reality, the Davidic kingdom. Likewise, Satan, the great dragon, certainly refers to an individual personage, the fallen angel himself, Satan. But he has 7 heads and 10 horns which symbolize the earthly empires that he uses to make war against God’s people. Likewise, Michael the Archangel, who makes war against this dragon but he doesn’t do it alone, he does it with all the angelic hosts, all of the armies of heaven, of which he is their head representative. So you have representative heads here, Jesus, the representative head of the Davidic dynasty, Satan, the representative head of the fallen angels, Michael, the representative head of the angels who make war against evil. And so Mary is the representative head of the Church. The church is called to be a virgin bride of Christ and yet mother church, a fruitful mother. How can the Church be both? Only one person was endowed by God to be both, Mary is the virgin bride and a fruitful mother. In Mary, the Holy Spirit has created the Ark type and source of the Church. This is how Vatican II describes Mary and this is why more than half a dozen Popes said Mary is the woman described in John’s vision of Revelation 12. We wouldn’t be a family without a mother!

Scott Hahn

 

[rinnie]

Hey guys please pray for a friend of mine.

Her name is Karen, she was 44 and was found dead today in her bed.

Please pray with me.

Blessed Mother please help my dear friend, she had many problems in this world. Please be there for her now, I am sure she is afraid and needs the love and protection that only a Mother can give.

And dear Lord please take her and keep her in your care. You know her heart and only YOU can give her what she could not seem to get in this world.

In the Name of Ourl Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.

Thanks guys, I am just a little sad right now, will back soon to address anything that was sent to me.

May we remember to always love one another and be kind and pray we can all be together in the perfect world where I pray Karen is right now. In God’s name. Amen.

Sorry for the de-rail.

 

[kellerk]

Hey guys please pray for a friend of mine.

Her name is Karen, she was 44 and was found dead today in her bed.

Please pray with me.

Blessed Mother please help my dear friend, she had many problems in this world. Please be there for her now, I am sure she is afraid and needs the love and protection that only a Mother can give.

And dear Lord please take her and keep her in your care. You know her heart and only YOU can give her what she could not seem to get in this world.

In the Name of Ourl Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.

Thanks guys, I am just a little sad right now, will back soon to address anything that was sent to me.

May we remember to always love one another and be kind and pray we can all be together in the perfect world where I pray Karen is right now. In God’s name. Amen.

Sorry for the de-rail.

sorry for your loss…sending prayers!