Protestants, why are you not Catholic?

[aidanbradypop]

You are getting a bit too snippy for me, abp. So I am going to have to say buh-bye.

Not snippy here but buh-bye

 

[CatholicAlbo]

The Jews in Egypt translated their choices of the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek in the second century before Christ. This translation of 46 books, called the Septuagint, had wide use in the Roman world because most Jews lived far from Palestine in Greek cities. Many of these Jews spoke only Greek.
The early Christian Church was born into this world. The Church, with its bilingual Jews and more and more Greek-speaking Gentiles, used the books of the Septuagint as its Bible. Remember the early Christians were just writing the documents what would become the New Testament.
After the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, with increasing persecution from the Romans and competition from the fledgling Christian Church, the Jewish leaders came together and declared its official canon of Scripture, eliminating seven books from the Septuagint.
The books removed were Tobit, Judith, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Wisdom (of Solomon), Sirach, and Baruch. Parts of existing books were also removed including Psalm 151 (from Psalms), parts of the Book of Esther, Susanna (from Daniel as chapter 13), and Bel and the Dragon (from Daniel as chapter 14).
The Christian Church did not follow suit but kept all the books in the Septuagint. 46 + 27 = 73 Books total.
1500 years later, Protestants decided to keep the Catholic New Testament but change its Old Testament from the Catholic canon to the Jewish canon.
The books that were removed supported such things as

• Prayers for the dead (Tobit 12:12; 2 Maccabees 12:39-45)
• Purgatory (Wisdom 3:1-7)
• Intercession of saints in heaven (2 Maccabees 15:14)
• Intercession of angels (Tobit 12:12-15)
  The books they dropped are sometimes called the Apocrypha.
  Here is a Catholic Bible website: nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/

 

[Kliska]

You are projecting your Protestant reality upon Catholicism, Kliska.

No, PR, I’m not. Regardless of what the hierarchy teaches, there are many many splits and differences between priests and the hierarchy and the laity and the hierarchy. I am much more conservative than 90% of the RC’s I’ve met in real life. I’ve lived on the coast here in the US down by New Orleans where there is a high concentration of RC’s. In many cases as far as the sanctity of marriage, the sanctity of life, etc… I’m much more in line with RC teaching than the majority of Catholics.

Further if tradition is supposed to the end all be all, there would not be such important differences between the RCC/ECC and the Orthodox.

There is the teaching of the Church and it is clear to all through the Catechism, encyclicals, and magisterium.

Apparently not in the way the hierarchy would want.

It is, however, exactly what the PR (Protestant Reformation ) ordered.

Yes, the Protestant Reformation “ordered” dissent if a teaching or action is contrary to God and His word.

It has yet to be refuted by any Protestant here. That’s why I keep bringing it up.

It’s been refuted in every thread it has ever been brought up in. You seem to continually deny the headship of Christ and the authority of the Holy Spirit that every single protestant I know of believes in.

Because…they are incontrovertible.

Indeed if you want to hold on to a personal definition of something, you are free to do so.

 

[PRmerger]

No, PR, I’m not. Regardless of what the hierarchy teaches, there are many many splits and differences between priests and the hierarchy and the laity and the hierarchy.

This is true.

It is, however, not permitted, as it is in Protestantism.

I am much more conservative than 90% of the RC’s I’ve met in real life. I’ve lived on the coast here in the US down by New Orleans where there is a high concentration of RC’s. In many cases as far as the sanctity of marriage, the sanctity of life, etc… I’m much more in line with RC teaching than the majority of Catholics

And you ought to be quoting the Catechism to them and telling them, “You are not permitted to divorce yourself from the teachings of the faith given once for all to the saints.”

Further if tradition is supposed to the end all be all, there would not be such important differences between the RCC/ECC and the Orthodox.

I don’t think you have given a correct explication of tradition.

Could you offer us what, exactly, you think the CC believes “tradition” to be?

Yes, the Protestant Reformation “ordered” dissent if a teaching or action is contrary to God and His word.

Contrary to one particular pastor’s *interpretation *of His Word.

It’s been refuted in every thread it has ever been brought up in.

Could you summarize this refutation please?

You seem to continually deny the headship of Christ and the authority of the Holy Spirit that every single protestant I know of believes in.

I deny that the HS can lead you to believe that divorce and re-marriage is acceptable, but lead me to believe that it is adulter, true.

And I deny that the HS can lead you to believe that the Eucharist is only a symbol, but lead me to believe that it is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Him, true.

But I have never denied the headship of Christ in you or any other professed non-Catholic Christian.

 

[Kliska]

It is, however, not permitted, as it is in Protestantism.

But, this is kind of my point. Even where and when it is “not permitted” by a hierarchy it happens… and it happens quite a lot.

And you ought to be quoting the Catechism to them and telling them, “You are not permitted to divorce yourself from the teachings of the faith given once for all to the saints.”

“Ought” implies a moral distinction. As I think each person is answerable for what they believe and I deny the magisterium’s and pope’s role, it is not my moral duty to tell them to uphold something I don’t. I HAVE however pointed out they are going against the teaching of their professed church; the RCC. They shrug and state their belief that the RCC is wrong. “You may want to check with a priest about that, or read the CCC.” “I have.”

I don’t think you have given a correct explication of tradition.

Could you offer us what, exactly, you think the CC believes “tradition” to be?

It would be summed up best in the Catechism itself, I think we’d both agree. Starting at around

75 "Christ the Lord, in whom the entire Revelation of the most high God is summed up, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel, which had been promised beforehand by the prophets, and which he fulfilled in his own person and promulgated with his own lips. In preaching the Gospel, they were to communicate the gifts of God to all men. This Gospel was to be the source of all saving truth and moral discipline.

and moving right on through that entire section, including other sections such as;

174 "For though languages differ throughout the world, the content of the Tradition is one and the same. The Churches established in Germany have no other faith or Tradition, nor do those of the Iberians, nor those of the Celts, nor those of the East, of Egypt, of Libya, nor those established at the center of the world. . ."60 The Church’s message “is true and solid, in which one and the same way of salvation appears throughout the whole world.”
175 "We guard with care the faith that we have received from the Church, for without ceasing, under the action of God’s Spirit, this deposit of great price, as if in an excellent vessel, is constantly being renewed and causes the very vessel that contains it to be renewed.

Contrary to one particular pastor’s *interpretation *of His Word.

After much historical research, study, and prayer, I come closer to agreeing with Luther than with the RCC.

Could you summarize this refutation please?

We believe not in our own authority but in the authority of the Holy Spirit; hence the scriptures being inspired by Him also have the seal of His authority. That others draw on the same authority yet don’t agree doesn’t dissuade. Just as certain churches draw on the authority of other men in collection (the magisterium) and/or tradition and/or scripture and/or logic aren’t dissuaded when others claim the same yet disagree with them.

I believe the Holy Spirit is capable of showing men the truth. That men refuse to see it isn’t my problem, and it isn’t the Holy Spirit’s problem, it is theirs, and they will answer for it based on the guidance given, much like Romans teaches about all being without excuse.

I deny that the HS can lead you to believe that divorce and re-marriage is acceptable, but lead me to believe that it is adulter, true.

And I deny that the HS can lead you to believe that the Eucharist is only a symbol, but lead me to believe that it is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Him, true.

This is the problem; no protestant believes the Holy Spirit would lead someone to contradictory things, esp. when it comes to salvation. No, the Holy Spirit would not lead a person to believe that murder is ok, or that thievery is a good thing. If someone argues such, they are wrong, even if they say that they are right and even if they argue it on the same grounds.

How many times have Catholics and Orthodox argued about an issue based on tradition, the ECF’s, scripture and logic and the still disagree! It is the same issue because there are humans involved.

But I have never denied the headship of Christ in you or any other professed non-Catholic Christian.

Which means we believe in hierarchy that includes the Holy Spirit as well. We all will answer to God for our own beliefs and those things we teach others.

 

[PRmerger]

But, this is kind of my point. Even where and when it is “not permitted” by a hierarchy it happens… and it happens quite a lot.

Yep. Sin is a horrid thing, indeed. :sad_yes:

However, that is no more an indictment of Catholicism than it is an indictment of St. Paul that people choose to reject his writings.

“Ought” implies a moral distinction. As I think each person is answerable for what they believe and I deny the magisterium’s and pope’s role, it is not my moral duty to tell them to uphold something I don’t.

Really. And yet you tell us, just recently on the CAFs, that those who reject the writings of St. Paul are “in error”.

So you feel it permissible to announce it here on a rather public forum, but you think it’s wrong to tell this person personally that his doctrine is incorrect?

I HAVE however pointed out they are going against the teaching of their professed church; the RCC. They shrug and state their belief that the RCC is wrong. “You may want to check with a priest about that, or read the CCC.” “I have.”

I absolutely believe that you have done this.

And I suggest you keep doing this, as you now are probably more conversant in the CC’s teachings than a majority of Catholics, thanks to your being here on the CAFs.

It would be summed up best in the Catechism itself, I think we’d both agree. Starting at around

75 "Christ the Lord, in whom the entire Revelation of the most high God is summed up, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel, which had been promised beforehand by the prophets, and which he fulfilled in his own person and promulgated with his own lips. In preaching the Gospel, they were to communicate the gifts of God to all men. This Gospel was to be the source of all saving truth and moral discipline.

and moving right on through that entire section, including other sections such as;

174 "For though languages differ throughout the world, the content of the Tradition is one and the same. The Churches established in Germany have no other faith or Tradition, nor do those of the Iberians, nor those of the Celts, nor those of the East, of Egypt, of Libya, nor those established at the center of the world. . ."60 The Church’s message “is true and solid, in which one and the same way of salvation appears throughout the whole world.”
175 "We guard with care the faith that we have received from the Church, for without ceasing, under the action of God’s Spirit, this deposit of great price, as if in an excellent vessel, is constantly being renewed and causes the very vessel that contains it to be renewed.

Amen!

Now, did you see in that explication where it says that the CC professes Sacred Tradition to be " the end all be all"?

After much historical research, study, and prayer, I come closer to agreeing with Luther than with the RCC.

Then you cannot tell those anti-Pauline Christians, who have also purported to have done much historical research, study and prayer, that they are “in error”.

For they are simply using the exact paradigm that you reserve for yourself.

 

[PRmerger]

We believe not in our own authority but in the authority of the Holy Spirit;

And how is the authority of the HS manifested? Does it appear to you in a feeling you have? A burning in the bosom that tells you, “Yes, it is correct that we are saved from the moment we ask Jesus into our hearts!”

What does this authority of the HS look like to you?

I believe the Holy Spirit is capable of showing men the truth.

How?

This is the problem; no protestant believes the Holy Spirit would lead someone to contradictory things, esp. when it comes to salvation. No, the Holy Spirit would not lead a person to believe that murder is ok, or that thievery is a good thing. If someone argues such, they are wrong, even if they say that they are right and even if they argue it on the same grounds.

Even if they have done much historical research, study and prayer?

How many times have Catholics and Orthodox argued about an issue based on tradition, the ECF’s, scripture and logic and the still disagree! It is the same issue because there are humans involved.

What is it that the Orthodox disagree with us on, save papal primacy?

Which means we believe in hierarchy that includes the Holy Spirit as well.

How does that work?

How does the HS tell you what the Scriptures mean, so that you can tell someone who has done the exact same thing you have done, but comes to a different conclusion, that he is in error and you are correct?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I am much more conservative than 90% of the RC’s I’ve met in real life. I’ve lived on the coast here in the US down by New Orleans where there is a high concentration of RC’s.

Well… New Orleans…

 

[GaryTaylor]

New Orleans…Pretty much says it all doesn’t it.

 

[drblank1]

I am a devout Protestant Christian, saved at age 12. My wife is a devout Catholic, and my son is a “modified” Catholic (does not pray to Mary or the saints, believes the Word of God is our chief authority, etc…, but prefers Catholic mass to Protestant worship services). I belong to the catholic “universal” church (with a little “c”). We all do.

What I write here is not written to be offensive or cause controvesy. As I learned from my wife over the years about her faith, is seems to me that a Catholic is relegated to a lower class of Christian by the Catholic church. Here is what I mean:

Head of the Catholic church - The Pople (a human)
Head of the Protestant church - Jesus Christ (devine)

How to have needs and requests fulfilled

• Catholic - prayer to God/Jesus + Mary and the saints (addition of lesser beings)
• Protestant - everything to God/Jesus (no need for lesser beings)

Classification as a true Christian

• Catholic - A parishiner
• Protestant - Saint (declared by Apostles) Priest (declared by Jesus)

Forgiveness of Sins

• Catholic - Priest (human mediator)
• Protestant - Always direclty through Jesus (devine mediator)

There are other comparision but this is a long post already. And as I pointed this out to my wife and son, it makes them wonder as well. But believe you this: I don’t care if you are Catholic or Protestant. If you declare that Jesus is the Son of God and that he is your and the worlds Savior and love and serve him, I will see you in heaven.

God love to you all.

 

[Kliska]

Yep. Sin is a horrid thing, indeed. :sad_yes:

However, that is no more an indictment of Catholicism than it is an indictment of St. Paul that people choose to reject his writings.

And there you go; those examples you give are no more an indictment on the true idea and teaching of Sola Scriptura because protestants disagree with one another.

Really. And yet you tell us, just recently on the CAFs, that those who reject the writings of St. Paul are “in error”.

So you feel it permissible to announce it here on a rather public forum, but you think it’s wrong to tell this person personally that his doctrine is incorrect?

Of course I’d tell them that they are incorrect, I actually do similar things quite frequently.

I absolutely believe that you have done this.

And I suggest you keep doing this, as you now are probably more conversant in the CC’s teachings than a majority of Catholics, thanks to your being here on the CAFs.

Respectfully, I’ve just joined CAF. My knowledge comes from study of the CCC, history, personal experience, and discussing things with RC’s… yes, practicing Catholics, but in the main probably not ones “in good standing” with the RCC. What I have gained here at CAF is the perspective of those RC’s actually in good standing with the RCC… as well as more info on Lutherans, Orthodox, Anglicans, etc… I’ve always had access to the RCC’s teachings via the CCC and other documents as well as the 'net, TV, books, and podcasts.

Then you cannot tell those anti-Pauline Christians, who have also purported to have done much historical research, study and prayer, that they are “in error”.

For they are simply using the exact paradigm that you reserve for yourself.

This is the point I’m making; it is the same as you telling those “wayward” RC’s that they are not inline with the RCC. I most certainly can tell anti-Paulinists they are in error, just as you can wayward RC’s. Then, it is up for them to believe it or not, with the help of the Spirit.

It’s the same as if someone tells me; it says in scripture it is ok to kill my friend. What is my answer? Umm… no, and here’s why.

And how is the authority of the HS manifested? Does it appear to you in a feeling you have? A burning in the bosom that tells you, “Yes, it is correct that we are saved from the moment we ask Jesus into our hearts!”

What does this authority of the HS look like to you?

Have you ever been lead by the Spirit? If so, it’s a lot like that… as that is what it is. There are also descriptions from different perspectives in scripture.

Even if they have done much historical research, study and prayer?

Yep, “even” then.

What is it that the Orthodox disagree with us on, save papal primacy?

Well, you’ve been here longer than me, but in my short time I’ve witnessed quite a bit of difference in teachings. Researching it has been quite enlightening. Also, let’s not rush past the idea of primacy, that is a huge difference in its implications.

How does that work?

How does the HS tell you what the Scriptures mean, so that you can tell someone who has done the exact same thing you have done, but comes to a different conclusion, that he is in error and you are correct?

Again, have you ever felt lead by God? Have you ever felt convicted, have you ever become convinced of something that did not come from you or your own understanding? Yeah, like that. We do “our part” by prayer, study (including other POV’s), and a serious delving into scripture, OT and NT and seeking God’s teaching and will instead of our own or what we wish were true.

If we show someone the Light, and they reject it, that’s on their head. If you show the gospel and someone spits on it, whose fault is it? Theirs.

 

[Kliska]

Well… New Orleans…

Would it help to tell you I was on the Mississippi side amongst many Baptists as well? lol

 

[stewstew03]

I am a devout Protestant Christian, saved at age 12. My wife is a devout Catholic, and my son is a “modified” Catholic (does not pray to Mary or the saints, believes the Word of God is our chief authority, etc…, but prefers Catholic mass to Protestant worship services). I belong to the catholic “universal” church (with a little “c”). We all do.

What I write here is not written to be offensive or cause controvesy. As I learned from my wife over the years about her faith, is seems to me that a Catholic is relegated to a lower class of Christian by the Catholic church. Here is what I mean:

Head of the Catholic church - The Pople (a human)
Head of the Protestant church - Jesus Christ (devine)

How to have needs and requests fulfilled

• Catholic - prayer to God/Jesus + Mary and the saints (addition of lesser beings)
• Protestant - everything to God/Jesus (no need for lesser beings)

Classification as a true Christian

• Catholic - A parishiner
• Protestant - Saint (declared by Apostles) Priest (declared by Jesus)

Forgiveness of Sins

• Catholic - Priest (human mediator)
• Protestant - Always direclty through Jesus (devine mediator)

There are other comparision but this is a long post already. And as I pointed this out to my wife and son, it makes them wonder as well. But believe you this: I don’t care if you are Catholic or Protestant. If you declare that Jesus is the Son of God and that he is your and the worlds Savior and love and serve him, I will see you in heaven.

God love to you all.

You’ve got it all wrong, my friend. Hopefully you will stick around CAF and learn a few things. I’ve made some corrections:

Head of the Catholic church - Jesus Christ
Head of the Protestant church - Jesus Christ (devine)

How to have needs and requests fulfilled

• Catholic - "…prayer is a surge of the heart; it is a simple look turned toward heaven, it is a cry of recognition and of love, embracing both trial and joy."
• Protestant - everything to God/Jesus (no need for lesser beings)

Classification as a true Christian

• Catholic - Belief in Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior; true God and true man; Second Person of the Holy Trinity; born of the Virgin Mary; resurrected on the Third Day
• Protestant - Saint (declared by Apostles) Priest (declared by Jesus)

Forgiveness of Sins

• Catholic - through Jesus Christ (see above); Priest -*** in persona Christi*** - see Luke 10:16, John 20:22-23, et al
• Protestant - Always direclty through Jesus (devine mediator)

 

[adrift]

I am correcting your mythical list

Head of the Catholic church - The Pople (a human) The Pope is the visible head The pope’s universal coercive jurisdiction not only did Christ constitute St. Peter head of the Church, but in the words, “Whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth, it shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed in heaven,” He indicated the scope of this headship.

Head of the Protestant church - Jesus Christ (devine)I think you mean Divine but you are being dishonest because each church has a human leader. Check out How Old is Your Church?

How to have needs and requests fulfilled Gosh it sounds like a wishing well- Catholic - prayer to God/Jesus + Mary and the saints (addition of lesser beings)We don’t pray to Mary and the saints we ask for their intersession like Paul asked for prayers.- Protestant - everything to God/Jesus (no need for lesser beings)I hear protestans asking for prayers all the time. You mean you never have asked for someone to pray for you.

Classification as a true ChristianI have no idea what you mean by this.

A true Christian is one who follow Jesus who said to be Baptized.

• Catholic - A parishiner
• Protestant - Saint (declared by Apostles) Priest (declared by Jesus)

Forgiveness of Sins

• Catholic - Priest (human mediator)Jesus told the Apostles whos sins they are forgiven would be forgivne and those retained to be retained. Lets get the teaching right. The priest acts in the personna of Jesus just as Jesus commanded
• Protestant - Always direclty through Jesus (devine mediator)Please the word id Divine and how do you know Jesus has forgivne you since it is no where in Scripture that you can go directly to Jesus?

There are other comparision but this is a long post already. And as I pointed this out to my wife and son, it makes them wonder as well. But believe you this: I don’t care if you are Catholic or Protestant. If you declare that Jesus is the Son of God and that he is your and the worlds Savior and love and serve him, I will see you in heaven.

God love to you all

I do hope you stick around and find out what Jesus really taught.

 

[stewstew03]

…
Again, have you ever felt lead by God? Have you ever felt convicted, have you ever become convinced of something that did not come from you or your own understanding? Yeah, like that. We do “our part” by prayer, study (including other POV’s), and a serious delving into scripture, OT and NT and seeking God’s teaching and will instead of our own or what we wish were true.

This describes my conversion experience. How can the Holy Spirit simultaneously lead me to the Catholic Church, while leading you to draw different conclusions about the Church?

 

[drblank1]

Thanks for your replies:

Just a quick note: how many saints are canonized in the Catholic Church? Very few compared to the overall population. Every born-again Christian is declared a saint and priest.

For the Nazarene church and many other Protestant churches, we have administrative leaders, but the spiritual head is Jesus Christ. We have no Vicar of God.

Paul asked for the prayers of those still physically alive around him. He did not ask for the prayers of those already with the Lord. We do the same.

I know that I am forgiven as Jesus does say He is the only mediator between God and us. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the father but through Him. We know we can boldly approach the throne of God without via a human mediator.

The veil was torn. The need for priests was eliminated with Jesus sacrifice.

Thanks for correcting my spelling. I am horrible at spelling.

In all God’s love to you.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

You’ve got it all wrong, my friend. Hopefully you will stick around CAF and learn a few things. I’ve made some corrections:

Head of the Catholic church - Jesus Christ
Head of the Protestant church - Jesus Christ (devine)

How to have needs and requests fulfilled

• Catholic - "…prayer is a surge of the heart; it is a simple look turned toward heaven, it is a cry of recognition and of love, embracing both trial and joy."
• Protestant - everything to God/Jesus (no need for lesser beings)

Classification as a true Christian

• Catholic - Belief in Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior; true God and true man; Second Person of the Holy Trinity; born of the Virgin Mary; resurrected on the Third Day
• Protestant - Saint (declared by Apostles) Priest (declared by Jesus)

Forgiveness of Sins

• Catholic - through Jesus Christ (see above); Priest -*** in persona Christi*** - see Luke 10:16, John 20:22-23, et al
• Protestant - Always direclty through Jesus (devine mediator)

Though Lutherans, in general, avoid the term ‘Protestant’ to describe ourselves, this Protestant totally agrees with what you wrote.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Would it help to tell you I was on the Mississippi side amongst many Baptists as well? lol

Lol, so we are moving from French Catholics to Bible Belt Catholics?



I think we are more motley than the Anglicans

@GKC - a motley challenge!

 

[aidanbradypop]

Lol, so we are moving from French Catholics to Bible Belt Catholics?



I think we are more motley than the Anglicans

@GKC - a motley challenge!

It is called Southern Catholic lol

 

[MommaduckofMany]

Thanks for your replies:

Just a quick note: how many saints are canonized in the Catholic Church? Very few compared to the overall population. Every born-again Christian is declared a saint and priest.

I think you misunderstand the difference. Saints are those that we are aware that they continued and ended their lives in Christ and they are those that we can look to as examples and learn from.

For the Nazarene church and many other Protestant churches, we have administrative leaders, but the spiritual head is Jesus Christ. We have no Vicar of God.

You do have leaders over you. You have those that teach and shepherd. You have those that hold authority…generally considered God given.

Paul asked for the prayers of those still physically alive around him. He did not ask for the prayers of those already with the Lord. We do the same.

You are missing a few books in your bible, but you do still have Revelation where the Saints pray for those of us here.

I know that I am forgiven as Jesus does say He is the only mediator between God and us. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the father but through Him. We know we can boldly approach the throne of God without via a human mediator.

When in confession, I’m confessing before Christ (in fact, we face the Scriptures and an icon of Him). The priest is present. The priest counsels. The priest confirms and pronounces that God (not the priest) has forgiven my sins.

The veil was torn. The need for priests was eliminated with Jesus sacrifice.

I think you do not know what a priest is, or a bishop, etc. Do you not have a pastor?

Thanks for correcting my spelling. I am horrible at spelling.

In all God’s love to you.