Protestants, why are you not Catholic?

[drblank1]

So sometimes Jesus *did *speak literally.

Interesting…

[BIBLEDRB]John 6:50-60
[/BIBLEDRB]

And to your point that you ignored in my response, I’ll post it once again:

But brilliant point and I’m glad you brought that up. He also spoke methophorically about these actual events when he taught about the temple being torn down and rebuilt in 3 days. John 2:13-22.

Again, I do not believe in any manner Jesus was instituting a form cannibalism. But at this point, we must agree to disagree. God bless you PR.

 

[MommaduckofMany]

Thank you.

Kliska, it doesn’t matter if you are intending to be insulting or not. The fact is, I have pointed out the insult, that it’s not an uncommon form of making certain implications that are insulting. For you to continue to do so is intentional insult and will be taken that way.

 

[PRmerger]

Following OT Law would be in serious contradition to Jesus’ teaching.

So those churches that demand following the OT law would not have the Holy Spirit, drblank?

Yes, or no?

What I am saying is that I would not follow anything someone says is a SACRED tradition that is not supported by the Bible or even worse, is in conflict with the teachings of the Apostles and Jesus Christ as documented in God’s Word.

I asked for 2 examples of Sacred Tradition which you believe are in conflict with the teachings of the Apostles.

As far as things “not supported by the Bible”–well, there is NOTHING in the Bible which supports the use of wedding rings. Yet, I presume, you are wearing one now, or have no problems with your parents’ use of that?

So you certainly can’t be against the use of things “not supported by the Bible”. Only by things which contradict the Bible.

So please give us 2 examples of that, in Sacred Tradition.

 

[Kliska]

You either don’t get what is being said or you are intentionally acting as you don’t. Perhaps I should start referring to “the Catholic churches” from now on?

The Catholics probably wouldn’t like that. But, I would say that would be a valid label if we are literally talking about churches in different locales. It would be as if the RCC and ECC had different canons, and I said, “the Catholic churches” have slightly different canons. It’s not meant to be a slight. I feel as though you are wanting to take it as such, or have had people attack you in such a manner in the past. I can assure you it is just a phrase here. Literally there are multiple churches, just like the 7 churches mentioned in Revelation. I’m in full understanding that all the Orthodox churches are part of The One Church, and it is also true that the different local churches recognize slightly different canons.

If I truly don’t understand what you are saying, I can only ask for forgiveness for my ignorance.

 

[PRmerger]

He also spoke methophorically about these actual events when he taught about the temple being torn down and rebuilt in 3 days. John 2:13-22.

Amen!

 

[adrift]

With all due respect, no I don’t need to be careful. My examples are only within the bounds of Jesus’ method for conveying his message. Methophor was His primary teaching tool, as in John 6. Again, if you take the whole harmony of Jesus’ teaching, it is easy to see he was speaking in methophor, and not actually promoting caniballism.

They left because of a metaphor? They didn’t leave when He said He was a door or a vine but they left over saying He was bread? If that was all He said you would be right but

The reaction of those diciples were hard because they did not understand and He let them go because they were not with Him from the beginning because He knew their heart.

I don’t believe that you are addressing the scripture.

Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”

So what was a hard saying?

Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you
Whoever eats 19 my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

As you pointed out before, Jesus explained to His disciples. There is no explanation not even to the Apostles because they understood correctly. You do not understand cannibalism a charge that was made against the early Christians. Cannibalism eats what is dead, Jesus is alive. Cannibalism eats only part of a body. We have the whole Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus.
A Catholic receiving the Eucharist is receiving not just flesh but glorified flesh, a resurrected and transfigured Body that foreshadows the new reality of a new Heaven and a new earth .
Borrowing from this web site

The Eucharist consumes us. When you eat food, it becomes a part of you. With the Eucharist, however, the opposite happens. We become a part of it, that is, in Holy Communion, we are made a part of the mystical body of Christ. In our Lord’s words, those who eat His flesh and drink His blood abide in Him (Jn. 6.40).

 

[adrift]

Following OT Law would be in serious contradition to Jesus’ teaching. What I am saying is that I would not follow anything someone says is a SACRED tradition that is not supported by the Bible or even worse, is in conflict with the teachings of the Apostles and Jesus Christ as documented in God’s Word.

As I said, we are free from the OT Law.

Wasn’t Jesus and His followers accused of not following OT law. I can think of at least two one when they didn’t do the ritual washing and two when they picked food on the Sabbath. I just thought of another one Jesus healing on the Sabbath.

 

[JoelleWyserPrat]

I firmly hold that it is not biblical and that to pray to anyone other than God is idolatrous.

To Whom should we pray?

There is no biblical teaching at all that states we are to pray to those who once were alive on earth and are now in heaven.

(Rev. 19:10)

John wants to bow the knee and worship the angel. But the angel tells him not to do that because he is a fellow creature. If the angel says that he is a fellow creature like John, and that John is not to bow to him, then neither should anyone else bow to an angel, or any creature so as to offer worship. Worship includes prayer. Therefore, no one should pray to any created thing.

 

[PRmerger]

I firmly hold that it is not biblical and that to pray to anyone other than God is idolatrous.

That we should worship anyone other than God* is* idolatry.

However, asking for a saint to pray for us is not worshipping.

Prayer is not the same as worship.

I pray thee that you consider this, Joelle. (In other words, I am petitioning you to consider this concept. I am not worshipping you when I say, “I pray thee that you consider this.”)

 

[JoelleWyserPrat]

why would you ask favor to the dead ones…

 

[PRmerger]

There is no biblical teaching at all that states we are to pray to those who once were alive on earth and are now in heaven.

But there is also no teaching that says that we are to get married in a church. I presume that you do not believe that this is wrong.

John wants to bow the knee and worship the angel. But the angel tells him not to do that because he is a fellow creature. If the angel says that he is a fellow creature like John, and that John is not to bow to him, then neither should anyone else bow to an angel, or any creature so as to offer worship.

No one should worship another creature. That is Catholic teaching.

Worship includes prayer. Therefore, no one should pray to any created thing.

That would be true if prayer ALWAYS meant worship.

But prayer doesn’t necessarily have to mean worship. Sometimes it is just talking to a soul in heaven and asking for her intercession.

It is nothing more than an extension of a prayer chain that you probably have participated in, Joelle.

(And now, I predict, you are going to say: well, we just don’t have any proof that those in heaven can hear our prayer.

And the conversation will segue from, “It’s wrong to pray to saints in heaven” to “Ok, it may not be wrong to ask someone to pray for our intentions, but there’s nothing in the Bible which states that they can hear our prayers.”)

 

[Porknpie]

With all due respect, no I don’t need to be careful. My examples are only within the bounds of Jesus’ method for conveying his message. Methophor was His primary teaching tool, as in John 6. Again, if you take the whole harmony of Jesus’ teaching, it is easy to see he was speaking in methophor, and not actually promoting caniballism.

Dr., then you are left to explain why Christianity has taught for 2,000 years the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. This includes Catholic East, West and Orthodox. The belief in the Real Presence existed both before and after the Canon of scripture was established. I should add, the Canon was set in part to have a universal set of readings at Mass throughout the world.

You thus contend that Jesus was speaking symbolically but The Church Christ established somehow developed a practice, the Sacrifice of the Mass, that was opposed to Scripture, with Scripture itself written by for and about the very Church that didn’t understand it?

Sorry Dr, please provide evidence of a Church, any Church believing in a symbolic meal prior to the reformation. Would be really great if you could provide evidence of one around the time of the apostles or even prior to 382 ad. If John 6 is to be taken symbolically as you content, this should be easy enough to do.

PnP

 

[PRmerger]

why would you ask favor to the dead ones…

Because they are more alive in Christ than your next door neighbor is.

And the prayers of a righteous man avails us much.

And who is more righteous than those who are already with Him?

 

[JoelleWyserPrat]

how about purgatory? do you believe in that?

 

[adrift]

why would you ask favor to the dead ones…

Mark 12:27
But as touching the dead, that they are raised; have ye not read in the book of Moses, in the place concerning the Bush, how God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living: ye do greatly err.

Praying to Mary and the Saints

Fundamentalists challenge the Catholic practice of asking saints and angels to pray for us. But the Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

Thus in Psalm 103, we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalm 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!” (Ps. 148:1-2)

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In Revelation, John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Angels do the same thing: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3-4).

Jesus himself warned us not to mess with small children because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: “See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.” (Matt. 18:10).

Because he is the only God-man, Jesus is the only Mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1-4), including those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for “[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16).

As the following passages show, the early Church Fathers clearly recognized the Biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, and they applied this teaching in their practice…

 

[PRmerger]

how about purgatory? do you believe in that?

Indeed, I do.

Nothing unclean can enter heaven, Joelle. And most of us when we die have souls that are not pure but still have an attachment to sin. IOW: we are still blemished and not prepared to see Him in His Eternal Glory.

Purgatory is nothing more than the mud room where we are cleaned in order to enter the House.

 

[adrift]

how about purgatory? do you believe in that?

Purgatory

 

[PRmerger]

how about purgatory? do you believe in that?

As CS Lewis (who was, curiously, not a Catholic) states: “Our souls demand purgatory, don’t they? Even if God doesn’t mind people entering heaven dripping with mud and slime, should we not reply, I’d rather be cleansed first,’ even if it may hurt?”

 

[Millie123]

I firmly hold that it is not biblical and that to pray to anyone other than God is idolatrous.

I’m just lurking here but I would like to chime in and say that to pray is an old word which simply means to “ask.” And no not all prayer is worship. To show you my point I’ll use examples from the King James Bible.

Genesis 13:8
And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I PRAY THEE, between me and thee, and between my herdmen and thy herdmen; for we be brethren.

Lot was a creature of God, Did Abram commit and act of idolatry? Did Abram worship Lot because he prayed to him?

Genesis 25:30
And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I PRAY THEE, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.

Again Jacob was a creature of God. So did Esau commit an act of idolatry by praying to Jaco?

Here is an interesting one:
Here is one where Jesus prayed to Simon.

Luke 5: 1-5
And it came to pass, that, as the people pressed upon him to hear the word of God, he stood by the lake of Gennesaret,

2 And saw two ships standing by the lake: but the fishermen were gone out of them, and were washing their nets.

3 And he entered into one of the ships, which was Simon’s, and PRAYED HIM that he would thrust out a little from the land. And he sat down, and taught the people out of the ship.

4 Now when he had left speaking, he said unto Simon, Launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a draught.

5 And Simon answering said unto him, Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing: nevertheless at thy word I will let down the net.

Surely you don’t believe that Jesus worshiped Simon because he prayed to Simon to let out his ship from the land? But these verses do show that Jesus did pray to Simon. So was Jesus commiting an act of idolatry. Or is your understand of the word “pray” a little eschewed and in error? Like I said to pray is an old word which simply means to ask. And no I don’t believe that all prayer is worship.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m just lurking here but I would like to chime in and say that to pray is an old word which simply means to “ask.” And no not all prayer is worship. To show you my point I’ll use examples from the King James Bible.

Genesis 13:8
And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I PRAY THEE, between me and thee, and between my herdmen and thy herdmen; for we be brethren.

Lot was a creature of God, Did Abram commit and act of idolatry? Did Abram worship Lot because he prayed to him?

Genesis 25:30
And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I PRAY THEE, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.

Again Jacob was a creature of God. So did Esau commit an act of idolatry by praying to him?

Here is an interesting one:
Here is one where Jesus prayed to Simon.

Luke 5: 1-5
And it came to pass, that, as the people pressed upon him to hear the word of God, he stood by the lake of Gennesaret,

2 And saw two ships standing by the lake: but the fishermen were gone out of them, and were washing their nets.

3 And he entered into one of the ships, which was Simon’s, and PRAYED HIM that he would thrust out a little from the land. And he sat down, and taught the people out of the ship.

4 Now when he had left speaking, he said unto Simon, Launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a draught.

5 And Simon answering said unto him, Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing: nevertheless at thy word I will let down the net.

Surely you don’t believe that Jesus worshiped Simon because he prayed to Simon to let out his ship from the land? But these verses do show that Jesus did pray to Simon. So was Jesus commiting an act of idolatry. Or is your understand of the word “pray” a little eschewed and in error? Like I said to pray is an old word which simply means to ask. And no I don’t believe that all prayer is worship.

:clapping::yup::bowdown: