The evidence is overwhelming that a variety of opinions existed regarding the way in which these books should be viewed and used.
Quite True which is yet another reason to believe that Christ, in His goodness provided us a way to deteremine what is the best and truest way to view and use these books.
Originally Posted by benidict
by what authority did the protestant fathers decide to take them out? Peace
Their review of the evidence caused them to conclude that these books should not be used to establish doctrine. Their authority is the same as possessed by early church fathers who concluded otherwise…all are equal members of Christ’s church.
Interesting claim. So it is your contention that you, or I may include or exclude any book from the bible that we choose because, “all are equal members of Christ’s church”. Is this really what you are saying?
It might be noted that certain groups of ECFs claim a thing called apostolic succession, but since the typical Protestant rejects that claim, the typical Protestant is free to look upon the earlier decisions wrt the canonicity of books as being open to review. In other words, a 16th or 21st century Protestant can consider whether “James” should be included in the NT canon for the same reasons that some ECFs asked the same question. Likewise, a 16th or 21st century Protestant can consider whether “the apocrypha” should be included in the OT canon for the same reasons that Jerome pondered the matter. As councils are quite capable of error, a council’s decision isn’t determinative.
My guess is that your contention here is NOT the view of the “Typical” Protestant. I believe that I shall put your proposition to the test by posting your statement with a poll.
As far as Jerome is concerned. This is another common argument brought up by protestants. That is the fact that certain Churchmen had issues with, and wrote about their concerns re: the canon. Of course they fail to note that Jerome and these other Churchmen submitted their own wills to the Will of God expressed in His Church. Jerome might have had concerns about the Deurtero’s but He DID translate them and included them in the Vulgate.
…and I think that you should understand that this is hardly a convincing analysis to me when it requires self-authentication. How do we know that Christ’s promise (to his then present disciples) to send the Spirit who would guide them into all truth meant that the later ECFs could not err (even to a small percentage) wrt defining the canon? How do we know that Christ’s promise (to his then present disciples) that what they bound or loosed, would be upheld in heaven meant that the later ECFs could not err (even to a small percentage) wrt defining the canon? How do we know these promises can be extended to the later Church? Is it simply b/c those who want to rely on these decisions of those ECFs say that is what these promises meant? Kind of self-serving (I think). …and after that, how do we identify the body of believers that is the “Church” of the promises (assuming that the promises can be extended to the later Church)? Do we have anything that is an objective measure?..or is it simply “We are the true Church, b/c we say so?”
If you want to get down to this type of dissention, then you must say, “How do we know Christ even existed to make these promises?”
As to the matter of succession and the passing on of authority.
Christ Told His apostles the things you point out, that they had the authority to bind and loose, and that they would be guided into all truth. He also told them to go and to teach the whole world. He told them that all authority had been given to Him in heaven and on earth. An authority He shared with them by the laying on of hands, breathing on them and by the imposition of the Holy Spirit.
The Apostles then using the authority given them by Christ himself appointed others in the expanding Church to teach and spread the gospel and minister to the growing Church. They did this by the same laying on of hands, breathing on and calling down the Holy Spirit upon these worthy men. When the apostles died and went to Christ, the authority did not die with them but remained in The Church in the men who had been given the apostolic authority in direct line from Christ. This is so because Christ said it is so. AND because history teaches us that this is how the Church passed it down to us.
Now to the matter of possible error. I will readily grant that not every person, not every bishop, will get everything right. However the Church councils have the advantage of bringing many “opinions” together where they can be hashed out prayerfuly and carefully face to face, thus providing the best way to determine the true will of the Holy Spirit. The first thing a Chruch council prays for is the Guidance of the Holy Spirit.
You mentioned earlier that the Protestant fathers" changed the canon because, “Their review of the evidence caused them to conclude that these books should not be used to establish doctrine”. May I ask at what conference the “protestant fathers” determined this? May I further ask how reliable this determination is considering that the “Protestant Fathers” never DID agree on just what doctrine should be in a “reformed” church?
Instead of coming together in Chrisitan Unity, and humbly submitting their opinions to the good of The Church, these men split asunder each forming their own camp of followers and each just as oposed to the other as they were oposed to the Catholic Church.
No my friend, You may find my arguments unconvincing because they rely on “self authentification”, but I find yours to be unconvincing for an even better reason. That is the fruits of the Protestant reformers among themselves which was chaos.
Peace
James
