Protestants: Why is it necessary for Franklin Graham to go to Catholic/Orthodox countries?

[Harpazo]

The questions is stated above. I don’t understand this. His father apparently understands this, yet why does Franklin not obey his father?

My parents get the Decision magazine and I’ve read a few, and I was appalled at some of the things they said in there. Franklin Graham went to the Ukraine and told them they “don’t need religion, or any of that ritualistic stuff, just the Gospel.” Obviously I’m paraphrasing, but it was something along those lines.

He’s also gone to South America, and in his most recent magazine issue, he talks about how the people of Ecuador are finally meeting Jesus. That’s a big steaming plate of poo! They have Jesus in the tabernacles of their Churches just as they have for however long the Church has been in Ecuador.

It puzzles me that Protestants complain about Catholics trying to evangelize Protestants and help bring them home to the Church. They say we should focus on those who don’t know Our Lord. Yet, look what is being done. Graham is specifically going to countries that are already Christian! Why is this so?

This might be a reach, but charitable discussion please!

Pace e Bene
Andrew

 

[mozart-250]

You mean to tell me that everyone in Peru will be in heaven?

I personally think the idea of a Catholic or Orthodox or Protestant country is a bad idea anyway.

 

[Harpazo]

You mean to tell me that everyone in Peru will be in heaven?

I personally think the idea of a Catholic or Orthodox or Protestant country is a bad idea anyway.

How will Franklin Graham’s showing up put Peruvians in Heaven? They have to work out their salvation in fear in trembling like everyone else. Whether or not they realize it or not is a different question altogether.

The point is, he is taking over his father’s enterprise of evangelization (can’t think of any other word). Why is he “sheep stealing” as some refer to it as? As an aside: To me, this is even more proof of lack of unity in doctrinal matters for Protestantism.

I thought that organization vowed that they would direct Catholics to Catholic Churches, Orthodox to theirs, etc. However, I be mistaken.

Pace e Bene
Andrew

 

[mozart-250]

How will Franklin Graham’s showing up put Peruvians in Heaven?

By responding to the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ and allowing it to change their lives.

They have to work out their salvation in fear in trembling like everyone else. Whether or not they realize it or not is a different question altogether.

Well yes. But salvation has to have a starting point.

The point is, he is taking over his father’s enterprise of evangelization (can’t think of any other word). Why is he “sheep stealing” as some refer to it as? As an aside: To me, this is even more proof of lack of unity in doctrinal matters for Protestantism.

Who says he is sheep stealing.

I thought that organization vowed that they would direct Catholics to Catholic Churches, Orthodox to theirs, etc. However, I be mistaken.

Well I can’t comment on the Billy Graham association in particular. But I can’t conclude based on what you have cited that there has been this massive shift in philosophy within the Billy Graham organization.

The only thing that I have observed…and this is terribly second and third hand…is that Franklin doesn’t seem to quite have the tact and diplomatic sense that his father has. In other words his mouth seems to get him in trouble sometime.

But I don’t know. Maybe there has been a shift of philosophy in the Billy Graham organization for all I know. But I wouldn’t conclude that based on the evidence cited thus far.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

I wonder if there has been any evangelical success in Protestant history. Have they ever converted a pagan nation?

Protestants are very good at evangelising to Catholics, because we Catholics already know Christ.

 

[Bennie_P]

Is he going to those countries and starting and establishing churches? Or is he just priming the pump, so to speak? I remember watching his father’s crusades on TV and during the “altar call” I would see priests and nuns going to the altar to rededicate thier lives to Christ. What was it that Jesus said to John?

But Jesus said: Do not forbid him. For there is no man that doth a miracle in my name and can soon speak ill of me. For he that is not against you is for you. For whosoever shall give you to drink a cup of water in my name, because you belong to Christ: amen I say to you, he shall not lose his reward. Mark 9:39 -41 (9:38-40) DRB

As far as I know the Graham Crusades and Ministries just spread the gospel and it is up to the individuals to choose which Church to attend. I could be wrong.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

As far as I know the Graham Crusades and Ministries just spread the gospel and it is up to the individuals to choose which Church to attend. I could be wrong.

quite true, its up to local churches to do follow up. if that doesnt happen the crusade is pointless.

 

[BartBurk]

The questions is stated above. I don’t understand this. His father apparently understands this, yet why does Franklin not obey his father?

My parents get the Decision magazine and I’ve read a few, and I was appalled at some of the things they said in there. Franklin Graham went to the Ukraine and told them they “don’t need religion, or any of that ritualistic stuff, just the Gospel.” Obviously I’m paraphrasing, but it was something along those lines.

He’s also gone to South America, and in his most recent magazine issue, he talks about how the people of Ecuador are finally meeting Jesus. That’s a big steaming plate of poo! They have Jesus in the tabernacles of their Churches just as they have for however long the Church has been in Ecuador.

It puzzles me that Protestants complain about Catholics trying to evangelize Protestants and help bring them home to the Church. They say we should focus on those who don’t know Our Lord. Yet, look what is being done. Graham is specifically going to countries that are already Christian! Why is this so?

This might be a reach, but charitable discussion please!

Pace e Bene
Andrew

I’m not a Protestant. I’m a Catholic who used to be Mormon. I went on a Mormon mission to Venezuela. Only a relatively small percentage of that country was sincerely Catholic even though the Catholic Church claims over 90% of the population. If even 20% took their Catholic faith seriously I would be surprised. The reason Protestants, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc. go to these countries is because a lot of people are there who still need some form of Jesus. And some Catholics actually have their faith awakened when these people come to their door and preach. Some even convert to the new religion and then go back to Catholicism once they’ve worn out with whatever form of Protestantism they wind up in. Look how many reverts are interviewed on the Journey Home television program. If the Catholics won’t evangelize their own people effectively, perhaps Protestantism is better for them than nothing at all.

 

[bengal_fan]

I’m not a Protestant. I’m a Catholic who used to be Mormon. I went on a Mormon mission to Venezuela. Only a relatively small percentage of that country was sincerely Catholic even though the Catholic Church claims over 90% of the population. If even 20% took their Catholic faith seriously I would be surprised. The reason Protestants, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc. go to these countries is because a lot of people are there who still need some form of Jesus. And some Catholics actually have their faith awakened when these people come to their door and preach. Some even convert to the new religion and then go back to Catholicism once they’ve worn out with whatever form of Protestantism they wind up in. Look how many reverts are interviewed on the Journey Home television program. If the Catholics won’t evangelize their own people effectively, perhaps Protestantism is better for them than nothing at all.

excellent post i think. it’s true that these “catholic countries” are pretty nominally catholic to start with. i would think you’d rather them experience Jesus than get swept up in a false religion like mormonism or JW or something else. the more they can be awakened to Jesus, the more likely they will come back as stronger catholics.
also, i know people who work for Billy Graham ministries. Billy traveled extensively to “catholic countries”. his son is following his footsteps. and it’s true,the only thing we really NEED is the gospel. the other stuff helps us experience the gospel deeper and hence know God better, but all we need is the gospel. Franklin might have been trying to take a pot shot at the catholics and orthodox, but in my experience with that organization, i think his mouth just got ahead of him. i have seen their crusades partner with all the churches in the cities they travel (including the catholic and orthodox).

 

[Contarini]

I wonder if there has been any evangelical success in Protestant history. Have they ever converted a pagan nation?

Small ones–Fiji and Tonga, for instance, and a number of ethnic groups in Asia (such as the Karen). Africa is more complex–actually I think even Fiji is complex inasmuch as there were Catholic missionaries there as well I think.

Of course, evangelicals don’t generally think in terms of converting nations. They tend to be suspicious of that concept as producing rote cultural religion–which is why people like Franklin Graham feel free to evangelize in Catholic or Orthodox countries.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

It puzzles me that Protestants complain about Catholics trying to evangelize Protestants and help bring them home to the Church. They say we should focus on those who don’t know Our Lord.

First of all, typically the Protestants who complain about Catholics evangelizing Protestants are the ones less likely to try to evangelize Catholics. The truly anti-Catholic Protestants (among whom I don’t think I’d count F. Graham) expect Catholics to try to lure Protestants away to their “false religion” and would not complain about it on those terms (obviously they think it’s bad, but it’s no more than they expect).

However, folks like Graham (and there are a lot of them) see true Christianity as an individual matter. So it’s not inconsistent for them to evangelize what they would see as nominal Christians while being upset with those who try to evangelize committed evangelicals. The question to ask is whether Graham would try to evangelize a Catholic who appeared to have a personal relationship with Jesus. I don’t think he would.

That is not to defend him–I think that his approach is ham-handed at best.

Edwin

 

[BartBurk]

excellent post i think. it’s true that these “catholic countries” are pretty nominally catholic to start with. i would think you’d rather them experience Jesus than get swept up in a false religion like mormonism or JW or something else. the more they can be awakened to Jesus, the more likely they will come back as stronger catholics.
also, i know people who work for Billy Graham ministries. Billy traveled extensively to “catholic countries”. his son is following his footsteps. and it’s true,the only thing we really NEED is the gospel. the other stuff helps us experience the gospel deeper and hence know God better, but all we need is the gospel. Franklin might have been trying to take a pot shot at the catholics and orthodox, but in my experience with that organization, i think his mouth just got ahead of him. i have seen their crusades partner with all the churches in the cities they travel (including the catholic and orthodox).

The idea that religion doesn’t save us is Billy’s idea, not Franklin’s. I listened to Billy for years and one of his standard lines was, “Religion will not save you. Only a personal relationship with Jesus Christ will save you.” And even for a Catholic that should be considered a true statement – the Catholic Church will not save us if we don’t really trust in Christ for our salvation. We can’t simply trust in the Catholic Church alone to save anyone. On the other hand, a person who trusts in Christ alone and completely disregards the teaching of the Church He established needs to wake up as well.

 

[theweeper]

very good thread i happend to know a little about. i have been on a couple of mission trips with the salvation army (frank is the head of) so i receive their newletter every month. it seems Frank’s main mission is service wherever that may be. catholic orthodox. wherever the poor are! the gospel is preached to the poor. the stuff about nomial catholics or nomial christians for that matter…well…if we dont want prot’s to beat us to the punch. CATHOLICs EVANGALIZE NOW! ecspeccially to the so called catholic countries. be bold! look around ur parish and let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love.

quote:
However, folks like Graham (and there are a lot of them) see true Christianity as an individual matter. So it’s not inconsistent for them to evangelize what they would see as nominal Christians while being upset with those who try to evangelize committed evangelicals. The question to ask is whether Graham would try to evangelize a Catholic who appeared to have a personal relationship with Jesus. I don’t think he would.

That is not to defend him–I think that his approach is ham-handed at best.

Edwin

Dear Edwin
because the evangelization is done by volunteers and each of them have their idea of what a “true” christian is. if they see all catholics as nominal christians they will evangelize all. if they see a person is a devout christian and happens to be catholic they may or may not try and evangelize them. you see there in lies the problem. they see all christianity as an individual matter and this is the view of the graham organization. so in order to know who to evangelize you have to judge a persons heart first. and this is very difficult. you can ask questions like “r u saved” “if you died today…” “have you accepted jesus as …” and even if the person says yes and i’m catholic if the volunteer isn’t satisfied youre “saved” they are free and encourged to save them and then when stats are directed back to the higher ups. they report "so and so, born and raised a catholic, accepted Jesus today. that makes 23 for the week. or whatever.
as c.s lewis said: we have lost the meaning of the word christian. now prot’s rely on our own idea of what a true christian is and this is judging. now the catholic veiw is if a person is baptized a christian and later confirmed. they are a christian. maybe a bad (nominal) one but still a brother (just being prodigal at present). now it is the duty of every christan to encourage each other in the faith, so let’s do it. dont complain when others are picking up our slack.
ok i’ve ranted and raved
sorry

 

[theweeper]

Edwin,
after seeing my last post i realized it may have looked like i was saying the last part to you. i wasnt. i was trying to give info about the organization and frank.and if he would or would not try and evangelize a devout catholic i would tend to disagree with you. i have seen a tendency in the leadership to be suspicious of converions within catholic “religion” and a tendenacy to trust the convertions of the heart if other protestant “religions” are involved. but again it just depends on the individual worker. there is no set rule to follow. when i was in new orleans after Katrina, if a person answered our questions with catholic langauge (ie. i’m baptized) we would ignore their profession of faith and try and get them to use our language (ie. say the sinners prayer). i dont know frank personally i have some friends that have meet him. i have meet some of the leadership team in N.C. they are (as far as i can tell) very devout and are desperately trying to follow christ. they just want to know they have done all they could to encourage others to be “true christians” whatever that means?

 

[theweeper]

one more and then i’ll shut up
when i was in N.O. i was going thru my catholic conversion and seeing catholic christians hold on to their faith was Great! i didn’t tell anyone but i said a Hail Mary with one of our clients. i know it would have been frowned on. i saw some stuff down there but thats for another thread

 

[Kitty_Chan]

I will say the Grahams want people to come to God, Jesus then they will find the church if the church is there to find.

I think some have been Christians for so long they forget the other side, what it was like to believe nothing. Or they were raised in the church and dont know anything different. Heaven rejoices at every soul saved. And if no one likes the term saved how about every soul who acknowledges Christ actually exists.

There is so much in church services to remind us of Him, Euchrist, crosses, crusifixes, crossing yourself, rosarys, how on this earth can it be wrong for a man of God to stand before people and tell them to remember?

 

[Mannyfit75]

I will say the Grahams want people to come to God, Jesus then they will find the church if the church is there to find.

I think some have been Christians for so long they forget the other side, what it was like to believe nothing. Or they were raised in the church and dont know anything different. Heaven rejoices at every soul saved. And if no one likes the term saved how about every soul who acknowledges Christ actually exists.

There is so much in church services to remind us of Him, Euchrist, crosses, crusifixes, crossing yourself, rosarys, how on this earth can it be wrong for a man of God to stand before people and tell them to remember?

The odd that strikes me is this. Why convert Christians by other Christians of a different tradition?

Besides all Christians, Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestants are validly baptized. They are in a sense born again in Spirit. I see no need to convert other Christians. I do see a need to convert Non-Christians.

 

[AgnosTheist]

The odd that strikes me is this. Why convert Christians by other Christians of a different tradition?

Besides all Christians, Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestants are validly baptized. They are in a sense born again in Spirit. I see no need to convert other Christians. I do see a need to convert Non-Christians.

Because you all have that Holier than Thou attitude.

 

[Contarini]

I agree with what you are saying. Evangelicals typically apply a cookie-cutter model of what it is like to have a personal faith in Christ, and this is disastrous.

Edwin

 

[Mickey]

Franklin Graham went to the Ukraine and told them they “don’t need religion, or any of that ritualistic stuff, just the Gospel.” Obviously I’m paraphrasing, but it was something along those lines.

I’m surprised the Ukrainians didn’t run him out of the country.