Protestants: Why is it necessary for Franklin Graham to go to Catholic/Orthodox countries?

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Contarini said:
I agree with what you are saying. Evangelicals typically apply a cookie-cutter model of what it is like to have a personal faith in Christ, and this is disastrous.
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on the positive note, diverse competition make people more religious. (*err, postive? *🤷 )

one of the guys here had a signature that says 'put catholics in public schools and make them defend their faith, rather than putting them in catholic schools and making them lose it.
 
Mannyfit75 said:
The odd that strikes me is this. Why convert Christians by other Christians of a different tradition?

Besides all Christians, Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestants are validly baptized. They are in a sense born again in Spirit. I see no need to convert other Christians. I do see a need to convert Non-Christians.
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Everyone needs conversion, baptized or not. Many of the people who were baptized as children still need to be converted to Christ. For some people of every tradition their original training just never takes for whatever reason. If the Catholic Church is unable to evangelize their people and bring them to Jesus as the Church understands it, perhaps God is using the Protestant ministries to bring them closer to him. It is not the fullness of the faith, but so many Catholics are sitting at home on Sunday morning sleeping off their drunken Saturday night party without any thought of Christ. I wouldn’t call it stealing when the Catholic Church doesn’t seem to own them anyway.
 
Mannyfit75 said:
The odd that strikes me is this. Why convert Christians by other Christians of a different tradition?

Besides all Christians, Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestants are validly baptized. They are in a sense born again in Spirit. I see no need to convert other Christians. I do see a need to convert Non-Christians.
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thats just the point manny for the billy grahm organization. Baptism even valid baptism does not = christian
a personal relationship = christian
and there is no way of knowing a person’s heart to see it they have a personal relationship so convert everybody (even other christian) is the default. unless of course they are convinced you are a christian ie have a personal relationship by using their language. saved, eternally secure, accepted jesus, lord of my life, whatever the catch phrase
not to say these are not truth but relying on this definition of what it means to be christian is flawed at the core. how could anyone call another person a brother in christ? i have no idea what ur relationship with God is? i only know what catch phrases you know
 
BartBurk said:
Everyone needs conversion, baptized or not. Many of the people who were baptized as children still need to be converted to Christ. For some people of every tradition their original training just never takes for whatever reason. If the Catholic Church is unable to evangelize their people and bring them to Jesus as the Church understands it, perhaps God is using the Protestant ministries to bring them closer to him. It is not the fullness of the faith, but so many Catholics are sitting at home on Sunday morning sleeping off their drunken Saturday night party without any thought of Christ. I wouldn’t call it stealing when the Catholic Church doesn’t seem to own them anyway.
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now thats what i call ‘an enlightened point of view’. 😃
 
AgnosTheist said:
on the positive note, diverse competition make people more religious. (*err, postive? *🤷
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Is it? I don’t know. (Is it better to be an evangelical who reads his/her Bible every day, quotes lots of Bible verses, sings praise choruses, but thinks primarily in terms dominated by secular categories, or a medieval peasant who swears and drinks and is illiterate but whose imagination is shot through with Biblical imagery and Christian symbolism? I don’t think either is ideal.) Lots of bad things have good effects, anyway. Perhaps because of sin we must be divided so that we will not get lazy–that doesn’t make division good.

Edwin
 
wow people whatever happened to knowing Christ? The Grahams spread a simple message of knowing Him and then finding a church home.

I didnt know it was a number crunch to join churches, I always thought it a better number crunch was to know God.

How can anyone “steal” anyone from God??

🤷
 
theweeper said:
very good thread i happend to know a little about. i have been on a couple of mission trips with the salvation army (frank is the head of) so i receive their newletter every month. it seems Frank’s main mission is service wherever that may be. catholic orthodox. wherever the poor are! the gospel is preached to the poor. the stuff about nomial catholics or nomial christians for that matter…well…if we dont want prot’s to beat us to the punch. CATHOLICs EVANGALIZE NOW! ecspeccially to the so called catholic countries. be bold! look around ur parish and let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love.

quote:
However, folks like Graham (and there are a lot of them) see true Christianity as an individual matter. So it’s not inconsistent for them to evangelize what they would see as nominal Christians while being upset with those who try to evangelize committed evangelicals. The question to ask is whether Graham would try to evangelize a Catholic who appeared to have a personal relationship with Jesus. I don’t think he would.

That is not to defend him–I think that his approach is ham-handed at best.

Edwin

Dear Edwin
because the evangelization is done by volunteers and each of them have their idea of what a “true” christian is. if they see all catholics as nominal christians they will evangelize all. if they see a person is a devout christian and happens to be catholic they may or may not try and evangelize them. you see there in lies the problem. they see all christianity as an individual matter and this is the view of the graham organization. so in order to know who to evangelize you have to judge a persons heart first. and this is very difficult. you can ask questions like “r u saved” “if you died today…” “have you accepted jesus as …” and even if the person says yes and i’m catholic if the volunteer isn’t satisfied youre “saved” they are free and encourged to save them and then when stats are directed back to the higher ups. they report "so and so, born and raised a catholic, accepted Jesus today. that makes 23 for the week. or whatever.
as c.s lewis said: we have lost the meaning of the word christian. now prot’s rely on our own idea of what a true christian is and this is judging. now the catholic veiw is if a person is baptized a christian and later confirmed. they are a christian. maybe a bad (nominal) one but still a brother (just being prodigal at present). now it is the duty of every christan to encourage each other in the faith, so let’s do it. dont complain when others are picking up our slack.
ok i’ve ranted and raved
sorry
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You cannot envangelized someone well catechized away from the Church. My conversion to the Catholic Church had to do more with a caring protestant minister (my former non-dom pastor) helping me to get deeper into my walk with and closer to Christ then Catholics trying to envangilize me. It was the Holy Spirit working through him to teach me the love Christ had for me and once I submitted to The Holy Spirit it was then I understood that I would only find the fullness of the faith within the Catholic Church. We need to stop worrying about the actions of envangelist outside of the Church and work on envangelizing inside of the Church. You are right we need to encourage each other in the faith and that starts with ourselves. In other words it starts with me.🤷
 
A Graham Crusade is like a kick in the pants. A jump-start. A jolt of lightening. A wake-up call. A cold shower.

A lot of very fallen-away Christians attend the Crusades just because Graham is a celebrity, or because everyone else is going and they don’t want to look like heathens.

Many of these fallen-away Christians are Catholics. Don’t deny it. All of us know Catholics who haven’t attended Confession and Mass in decades, right? We pray for them with tears and fasting, we offer our Masses for them, we light candles for them, we plead with the Blessed Virgin to call them home, we beg the Holy Spirit to bring something into their lives that will cause them to return to God.

At a Graham Crusade, the music, the Bible, the celebrity testimonies, the simple message of Pastor Graham–“Follow Jesus”–the Holy Spirit works through all of these to reach the heart of the fallen-away Christian and bring them to a point of repentance and contrition. They stumble forward at the “altar call” and renew their vows to “follow Jesus.”

This is very “Catholic.” We believe that the Bible is the Word of God, right? And the BIble says that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The Bible says that the Word of God will not return void.

Our own Mass includes the Liturgy of the Word. We believe that God speaks through the Bible. And therefore, God can speak through the Word at a Graham Crusade, too.

A Graham Crusade never tells people which church to attend. If a person states that they are Catholic, the counselor will encourage them to return to their Catholic Church.

If I had a family member, a Catholic, who was fallen-away from his/her faith, I would REJOICE if it was a Graham Crusade that gave them that “jolt” that propelled them back to the Church. James 5 says that if anyone rescues a sinner, they have done a good thing.
 
BartBurk said:
Everyone needs conversion, baptized or not. Many of the people who were baptized as children still need to be converted to Christ. For some people of every tradition their original training just never takes for whatever reason. If the Catholic Church is unable to evangelize their people and bring them to Jesus as the Church understands it, perhaps God is using the Protestant ministries to bring them closer to him. It is not the fullness of the faith, but so many Catholics are sitting at home on Sunday morning sleeping off their drunken Saturday night party without any thought of Christ. I wouldn’t call it stealing when the Catholic Church doesn’t seem to own them anyway.
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i understand what you and other posters are saying here, but it seems to me this sweeps whatever doctrinal differences exist between catholicism and franklin graham’s religious group (i don’t know anything about him so can’t be more specific than that) under the rug. it seems to me the question should be, do these “bible crusades” weaken or strengthen catholic belief and practice in these countries?

if one side effect of attending these things is the participant questions the authority of the church and the pope, the importance of faith and works, the relationship between sacred scripture and sacred tradition, then i don’t see how we can look on it as a good thing.

i don’t think the point of these things is to get people to become better catholics, it’s to pry them away from the catholic church and its doctrines. even the quote “you don’t need all this religion and stuff just the gospel message” shows a huge doctrinal bias – he’s essentially saying sacred tradition is worthless. i can’t approve of that.
 
tomarin said:
i understand what you and other posters are saying here, but it seems to me this sweeps whatever doctrinal differences exist between catholicism and franklin graham’s religious group (i don’t know anything about him so can’t be more specific than that) under the rug. it seems to me the question should be, do these “bible crusades” weaken or strengthen catholic belief and practice in these countries?

if one side effect of attending these things is the participant questions the authority of the church and the pope, the importance of faith and works, the relationship between sacred scripture and sacred tradition, then i don’t see how we can look on it as a good thing.

i don’t think the point of these things is to get people to become better catholics, it’s to pry them away from the catholic church and its doctrines. even the quote “you don’t need all this religion and stuff just the gospel message” shows a huge doctrinal bias – he’s essentially saying sacred tradition is worthless. i can’t approve of that.
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The problem in Latin America is there are too few priests. I’ve read articles which show the number of priests to laity is one of the lowest in the world there. That makes evangelization a bit hard unless the laity is willing to do the job. If the Catholic Church doesn’t have the tools to evangelize their own people others are going to fill the gap. I don’t know how they solve the priest shortage in Latin America, but that seems to be a major problem. Perhaps the lay involvement among Protestants in Latin America is simply more effective.
 
Harpazo said:
He’s also gone to South America, and in his most recent magazine issue, he talks about how the people of Ecuador are finally meeting Jesus. That’s a big steaming plate of poo!
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I find this VERY offensive! You have a man spreading the Gospel to every nation and every tongue and you call it “a steaming plate of poo”???:mad:
 
As a Protestant that ministers over seas very regularly, and has spent a lot of time in “Catholic” Latin America. I can at least speak for myself that my goal is not to convert Bible believing and devout Catholics, but rather help those who have not heard the Gospel and help them grow and develop a personal walk with the Lord. The vast majority of individuals that would claim Catholicism as their religion have no knowledge of the Bible and spiritual maters, and have no resemblance of a personal walk with the Lord. The term culturally Catholic is the best way I can describe the spiritual situation of most of the “Catholics” in Latin America. Most of this stems from a lack of leadership among the Catholics in these countries, there are just not enough priests to serve the people, I will give a few examples. I spent several months in a sugarcane farming plantation in the Dominican Republic on the Haitian border. In the community we were staying in there were three houses of worship, a catholic church, a protestant church, and a voodoo temple. The Protestant church I was working with was very active both in evangelism and with human need ministries, (feeding center, water purification ect) The Voodoo temple was relatively active, they would come together several times a month. However, for two months the catholic church set empty with the gate locked, we were told that they only expect a priest 2 or 3 times a year, and the vast majority of those who would claim to be catholic were regular attendees to the witchdoctor. It has been my same experience in Peru, Bolivia, Honduras, Colombia, Brazil, ect. Its not a competition as to who can claim the bigger numbers, we should be all working toward the same goal, that is more people in a right relationship with the Lord.
 
Harpazo said:
It puzzles me that Protestants complain about Catholics trying to evangelize Protestants and help bring them home to the Church. They say we should focus on those who don’t know Our Lord. Yet, look what is being done. Graham is specifically going to countries that are already Christian! Why is this so?
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That’s nice the country is Christian, now onto the people.
 
Bennie_P said:
Is he going to those countries and starting and establishing churches? Or is he just priming the pump, so to speak? I remember watching his father’s crusades on TV and during the “altar call” I would see priests and nuns going to the altar to rededicate thier lives to Christ. What was it that Jesus said to John?

But Jesus said: Do not forbid him. For there is no man that doth a miracle in my name and can soon speak ill of me. For he that is not against you is for you. For whosoever shall give you to drink a cup of water in my name, because you belong to Christ: amen I say to you, he shall not lose his reward. Mark 9:39 -41 (9:38-40) DRB

As far as I know the Graham Crusades and Ministries just spread the gospel and it is up to the individuals to choose which Church to attend. I could be wrong.🤷
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I understand that Billy Graham would tell the people at his crusades to find a local church, and he would tell the Catholics to find a Catholic church. So, as long as Franklin Graham tells the Catholics that hear him preaching to find a Catholic church, I have no problem with him.

What I WOULD have a problem with is IF he (or someone else) would tell the Catholics that the Catholic Church is not a Christian Church, OR assuming that a devout Catholic is not a Christian and doesn’t know Jesus.
 
Contarini said:
I agree with what you are saying. Evangelicals typically apply a cookie-cutter model of what it is like to have a personal faith in Christ, and this is disastrous.
Edwin
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Yes, I know people like this; if you cannot name a specific date when you accepted Christ as Saviour, they will tell you,:eek: that you are not a Christian at all!! That makes me very angry, & it confuses people no end.
valient_Lucy said:
I understand that Billy Graham would tell the people at his crusades to find a local church, and he would tell the Catholics to find a Catholic church. So, as long as Franklin Graham tells the Catholics that hear him preaching to find a Catholic church, I have no problem with him.

What I WOULD have a problem with is IF he (or someone else) would tell the Catholics that the Catholic Church is not a Christian Church, OR assuming that a devout Catholic is not a Christian and doesn’t know Jesus.
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I totally agree! This is something that, as I understand it, is something that Billy Graham always did, because his own wife Ruth (may she rest in peace), could not ever remember a time when she did not believe in & love Jesus Christ. (Her parents were missionaries, her father a Presbyterian pastor; she was brought up a Christian). So, while he encouraged people to make a deeper commitment to Christ (which we do all need!!), he did not believe in trying to take people away from their church. He wanted them to be closer to God right whre they are.
I would hope that Franklin Graham will continue the same policy.

I would point out, in a case like the Ukraine (or any other former part of the USSR, that there are no doubt many people who have no religion at all. Because the communists have stamped it out…So even though someone’s family might have been Catholic or Eastern Orthodox at some point in time, there may be several generations with little but atheists…
Some of these people may be turning up at Franklin Graham’s meetings, & he might be referring to that when he says that “religion will not save you”. The fact that a person’s grandparents, for example, were Catholics, even under communism, does not guarantee that some folks have no notion as to what that means. They just might say Catholic, to distinguish from Russian Orthodox…
 
Did Jesus not rebuke the disciples when they tried to stop a man from casting out demons in Jesus name something like “If he is for us, how can he be against us.” Do you think that Mr. Graham is preaching a different Jesus?
 
I think that if his father wasn’t Billy Graham, Franklin would be working the drive-up window at McDonald’s.
 
I thing that the Grahams still are trying to be as ecumenical as posible in bringing people to Jesus. I think it just was a poor choice of words of his part.
 
Harpazo said:
The questions is stated above. I don’t understand this. His father apparently understands this, yet why does Franklin not obey his father?

My parents get the Decision magazine and I’ve read a few, and I was appalled at some of the things they said in there. Franklin Graham went to the Ukraine and told them they “don’t need religion, or any of that ritualistic stuff, just the Gospel.” Obviously I’m paraphrasing, but it was something along those lines.

He’s also gone to South America, and in his most recent magazine issue, he talks about how the people of Ecuador are finally meeting Jesus. That’s a big steaming plate of poo! They have Jesus in the tabernacles of their Churches just as they have for however long the Church has been in Ecuador.

It puzzles me that Protestants complain about Catholics trying to evangelize Protestants and help bring them home to the Church. They say we should focus on those who don’t know Our Lord. Yet, look what is being done. Graham is specifically going to countries that are already Christian! Why is this so?

This might be a reach, but charitable discussion please!

Pace e Bene
Andrew
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The USA is a Christian country, yet do you beleive that all Americans are Christians because they say the Pledge of Allegiance?

It is very, I might say extremely clear that if you read the New Testament that God does not want our Religion, He wants us. If you can read the books of Hebrews and Romans for starters and come out with any other sense, I would be shocked. Mr. Graham’s point is to not put your Faith in (Yourself) your own religous attempts or family affiliations to reach God, but put your Faith in God who has reached out to us. Catholocism, Protestantism, or any other ism cannot save, only God. Its written in your Bible. Mr. Graham proclaims the Gospel Message of Salvation, if your church teaches it as well then what is the problem?

“Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.”
 
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