Protestants; why won't you be CATHOLIC!?

[Janet1983]

Well, first of all… you’re only quoting part of the whole thing. That’s part of what “interpretation” means.

I read your links. The whole thing.

She can be considered the “cause of salvation” because bore Christ. If it had not been Mary, but someone else, that someone else would be the “cause of salvation.” It’s just a cause. Where as, Christ IS salvation.

This is YOUR intepretation. Sure, you’re reading, but you’re still intrepreting.

If you take a look at the definition of the word “cause:”

Mary existed in such a way (full of God’s grace) that some specific thing (the birth of our Saviour, Jesus Christ) happens as a result.

As to your partial quote of the “Queen over all things” continues on with:

Again, it all points back to Christ. But you don’t want to read that.

Where does it point back to Christ? Why is this not obvious in the so called veneration of the populace (every participated in a litany?)
Why is language used that normally describes God alone? Why can I substitute “God” or “Jesus” in the Salve Regina and then it is worship and does not look out of place?
Why does Pope Pius IX write in his encyclical:
“Her foot has crushed the head of Satan.”

There are so many things that come together: Language in general, people bowing down before her statues, people praying to her, devotions to her and words that are only used in connection with God or Jesus Christ.
She gave birth to a child and she gave herself over to the will of God. That is respectable and great. She raised the Messiah, that is an honour. She is however a sinner like everybody else and depended upon salvation. Jesus Christ is not being coerced by His mother in any way, form or fashion. Nowhere in scripture do we find that she is sitting right next to Him in heaven pleasing for the poor souls who are still on earth or have already departed. All this is either practical living of Catholics and/or Catholic teaching. I am not making this up… My grandmother is very adamant about that. She loves Mary and there is no way I can get her from lighting a candle in front of her little statue she’s got there and to do it for my sake. She is very loving, but nobody would dare to stop her from doing it (except maybe for Grandpa who made her stop for several years because of the fire hazard… one of the little candles caught fire and nearly lit the curtain up…)
I’ve seen it and I’ve done it myself. I was at a nunnery! I lived Catholic piety and I did believe it myself.
Sorry, I guess I’m rambling… but I think it had to be said…

 

[Carlan]

No one should go up against guanophore on matters of catholic faith and what the Church teaches. :tsktsk:

She knows her stuff. She will listen intently and reply with charity and gentle kindness, but she does know what the Church teaches and a lot more history than I can take in.

I’ve learned a lot from reading her posts.

hello happily catholic, what do you mean knows her Stuff, read her other posts . One of the posters recently gave out the link to the ‘Catechism of the Catholic Church’ and all of a sudden of sudden she knows her stuff.I don’t think so in spite of her convent education.

 

[happilycatholic]

Where does it point back to Christ? Why is this not obvious in the so called veneration of the populace (every participated in a litany?)
Why is language used that normally describes God alone? Why can I substitute “God” or “Jesus” in the Salve Regina and then it is worship and does not look out of place?
Why does Pope Pius IX write in his encyclical:
“Her foot has crushed the head of Satan.”

There are so many things that come together: Language in general, people bowing down before her statues, people praying to her, devotions to her and words that are only used in connection with God or Jesus Christ.
She gave birth to a child and she gave herself over to the will of God. That is respectable and great. She raised the Messiah, that is an honour. She is however a sinner like everybody else and depended upon salvation. Jesus Christ is not being coerced by His mother in any way, form or fashion. Nowhere in scripture do we find that she is sitting right next to Him in heaven pleasing for the poor souls who are still on earth or have already departed. All this is either practical living of Catholics and/or Catholic teaching. I am not making this up… My grandmother is very adamant about that. She loves Mary and there is no way I can get her from lighting a candle in front of her little statue she’s got there and to do it for my sake. She is very loving, but nobody would dare to stop her from doing it (except maybe for Grandpa who made her stop for several years because of the fire hazard… one of the little candles caught fire and nearly lit the curtain up…)
I’ve seen it and I’ve done it myself. I was at a nunnery! I lived Catholic piety and I did believe it myself.
Sorry, I guess I’m rambling… but I think it had to be said…

Hi Janet:

Calm down

When Jesus told John, “*Behold your mother”. *What was he saying?

Also, Mary is more than a ‘parent’, she is a mother. She is not just the mother of the man we would come to know as The Christ. The is our Mother, sent to us to bring the New Covenant into the world. She is uniquely in communion with God through Christ. No one else can claim such. She was *always *known to God as the Mother of Christ. She is more than ‘special’, she is holy. Mary is beyond ‘chosen’, she is *consecrated by God. *No one can undo that. She is forever consecrated by God for God’s purpose.

We as catholics do no more than what Christ asked of John at Calvary. We behold Mary in the same light as God does.

Why don’t you?

 

[GodIsGracious]

Dear wonderful people, read her post(from sterday can’t you see, she does not use the Catechism to find the truth she is a fallen away Catholic who has become anti catholic , she is a heretic. forgive me for my simple bluntness.Carlan

Yes, I realize that. It is also quite clear and obvious that Janet1983 will produce different quotes when presented with the truth to continue to support her erroneous positions.

She is attempting to use the Catechism of the Catholic Church - but reading it (and interpreting it!) incorrectly and trying to use it against the Catholic Church to prove her false claims.

 

[authenticity]

I don’t interpret. I read. And all I said was that the status of Mary comes close to worship… Even though it is called differently (hyperdulia)… where is the difference in the hearts of the people? Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. What does that tell you?

Her obedience gave birth to Jesus, who is the salvation for the whole human race. It actually says that in the Catechism you quote:

At the announcement that she would give birth to “the Son of the Most High” without knowing man, by the power of the Holy Spirit, Mary responded with the obedience of faith, certain that “with God nothing will be impossible”: “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be [done] to me according to your word.” Thus, giving her consent to God’s word, Mary becomes the mother of Jesus. Espousing the divine will for salvation wholeheartedly, without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and to the work of her Son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with him and dependent on him, by God’s grace…

It tells me that she is “the cause of salvation”. How will you tell me that someone who is not as educated as you and therefore does not know the difference will not worship Mary as she is the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race.

I pray the rosary with my family every night. I can tell you just from experience that we have all learned a lot about the life, death and resurrection of Christ through this devotion. Not to mention we profess our faith in Christ every night by praying the Apostle’s Creed. Devotion to Mary strengthens faith in Jesus. There is no doubt about it.

She is Queen over all things according to the Catechism. Now tell me where that was so wrong?

“Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death.”

If I “interpret” the Catechism wrong, point it out and show me… if I just read it, why do you attack me?

Edit:
“Membership in the Militia means complete dedication to the Kingdom of God and to the salvation of souls through Mary Immaculate.” -Pope John Paul II

If someone were to sit down and read the Catechism from the start, they would not walk away with the idea that the Church worships Mary, however highly regarded she is in the Church.

 

[GodIsGracious]

hello happily catholic, what do you mean knows her Stuff, read her other posts . One of the posters recently gave out the link to the ‘Catechism of the Catholic Church’ and all of a sudden of sudden she knows her stuff.I don’t think so in spite of her convent education.

Carlan, respectfullly, I think happilycatholic is talking about someone else, guanophore. Who is not the same as who I think you are talking about, Janet1983.

 

[Janet1983]

hello happily catholic, what do you mean knows her Stuff, read her other posts . One of the posters recently gave out the link to the ‘Catechism of the Catholic Church’ and all of a sudden of sudden she knows her stuff.I don’t think so in spite of her convent education.

I knew it before that… Mainly because I used vatican.va and there it is a lot harder to find something so you have to read half-way trough to get to the information you were looking for…
This new link however gives me the possibility to quote single numbers and not a whole chapter (making people search for my quote)

 

[Carlan]

No one should go up against guanophore on matters of catholic faith and what the Church teaches. :tsktsk:

She knows her stuff. She will listen intently and reply with charity and gentle kindness, but she does know what the Church teaches and a lot more history than I can take in.

I’ve learned a lot from reading her posts.

Excuse me happily catholic, I’m mixed up here I was commenting on Janet, I don’t know how that happened. You are so right about Guanophore and others like him it is why I keep reading the forums they really know how to communicate the truth, God bless them in their knowledge and God bless you happy catholic :thumbsup:Carlan

 

[GodIsGracious]

Where does it point back to Christ?

Did you not READ the whole passage? Someone else has pasted the whole passage that you partially quoted from. I will do so again, and so this will make a third repeat of how this whole thing points to Christ.

966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death." The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

I hope that does not get past you.

Why is this not obvious in the so called veneration of the populace (every participated in a litany?)
Why is language used that normally describes God alone? Why can I substitute “God” or “Jesus” in the Salve Regina and then it is worship and does not look out of place?
Why does Pope Pius IX write in his encyclical:
“Her foot has crushed the head of Satan.”

There are so many things that come together: Language in general, people bowing down before her statues, people praying to her, devotions to her and words that are only used in connection with God or Jesus Christ.
She gave birth to a child and she gave herself over to the will of God. That is respectable and great. She raised the Messiah, that is an honour. She is however a sinner like everybody else and depended upon salvation. Jesus Christ is not being coerced by His mother in any way, form or fashion. Nowhere in scripture do we find that she is sitting right next to Him in heaven pleasing for the poor souls who are still on earth or have already departed. All this is either practical living of Catholics and/or Catholic teaching. I am not making this up… My grandmother is very adamant about that. She loves Mary and there is no way I can get her from lighting a candle in front of her little statue she’s got there and to do it for my sake. She is very loving, but nobody would dare to stop her from doing it (except maybe for Grandpa who made her stop for several years because of the fire hazard… one of the little candles caught fire and nearly lit the curtain up…)
I’ve seen it and I’ve done it myself. I was at a nunnery! I lived Catholic piety and I did believe it myself.
Sorry, I guess I’m rambling… but I think it had to be said…

No one said that Christ is being coerced by his mother. His mother, on the other hand, directs us to “Do whatever he says.” “He” being Christ.

BTW, I’m GLAD there is no way you can get your grandmother to stop lighting a candle. Your grandmother is asking Mary to HELP PRAY TO GOD for your soul. And you don’t see that. You interpret it to mean she is worshipping Mary. She is not.

The only thing I can say is that you need to get rid of all momentos and pictures of your own mother. Because to do so would mean to other people that you were worshipping her.

And if you worshipped Mary while at a nunnery, well, that was you. You mistook it to be worshipping Mary, when it is not. Again, as has been asked of you before, where in the Catechism of the Catholic Church does it say that Catholics must worship Mary? Or even simply worship her at all?

My mom was at a nunnery. She left as it was not her vocation. She taught me the importance of Mary, but never did she tell me to worship her.

 

[Carlan]

Carlan, respectfullly, I think happilycatholic is talking about someone else, guanophore. Who is not the same as who I think you are talking about, Janet1983.

Thank you God is Gracious, Forgive this 83 year old And God bless you!Carlan

 

[Janet1983]

Did you not READ the whole passage? Someone else has pasted the whole passage that you partially quoted from. I will do so again, and so this will make a third repeat of how this whole thing points to Christ.
“966 “Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death.” The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:”

(Apart form the fact that I don’t buy her resurrection story…) How how does this passage reflect back on Christ? Even if the power came from Christ and through her obedience, that does not change the title the Church is giving her.
We are all being conformed to the image of Christ. The Apostle Paul urges us, by the mercies of God, to present our bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is our spiritual service of worship. He tells us not to be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of the mind.

No one said that Christ is being coerced by his mother. His mother, on the other hand, directs us to “Do whatever he says.” “He” being Christ.

Well if it wasn’t so, why ask her? I do not believe it myself, but the Church asks her. Why do so if she cannot make things happen?
2618 The Gospel reveals to us how Mary prays and intercedes in faith. At Cana, the mother of Jesus asks her son for the needs of a wedding feast; this is the sign of another feast - that of the wedding of the Lamb where he gives his body and blood at the request of the Church, his Bride. It is at the hour of the New Covenant, at the foot of the cross, that Mary is heard as the Woman, the new Eve, the true “Mother of all the living.”
This is one occasion where she actually tells Him that there is a need and He reacts with His first miracle. On other occasions He is denying her… Why pick one out for private interpretation while there are other verses to interpret this scene with which are saying quite the opposite… That is not too credible…
Apart from that… why ask her if she cannot do anything? I mean that does not make sense to me. If the regular Catholic is being told to ask Mary, he thinks that she will be able to change things… Why isn’t there any clarification by the Church? Why is there even more complication?
2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes, for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.

BTW… Why is the improper use of the name of Mary Blasphemy?
2162 The second commandment forbids every improper use of God’s name. Blasphemy is the use of the name of God, of Jesus Christ, of the Virgin Mary, and of the saints in an offensive way.

 

[estesbob]

(Apart form the fact that I don’t buy her resurrection story…) How how does this passage reflect back on Christ? Even if the power came from Christ and through her obedience, that does not change the title the Church is giving her.
We are all being conformed to the image of Christ. The Apostle Paul urges us, by the mercies of God, to present our bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is our spiritual service of worship. He tells us not to be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of the mind.

Well if it wasn’t so, why ask her? I do not believe it myself, but the Church asks her. Why do so if she cannot make things happen?
2618 The Gospel reveals to us how Mary prays and intercedes in faith. At Cana, the mother of Jesus asks her son for the needs of a wedding feast; this is the sign of another feast - that of the wedding of the Lamb where he gives his body and blood at the request of the Church, his Bride. It is at the hour of the New Covenant, at the foot of the cross, that Mary is heard as the Woman, the new Eve, the true “Mother of all the living.”
This is one occasion where she actually tells Him that there is a need and He reacts with His first miracle. On other occasions He is denying her… Why pick one out for private interpretation while there are other verses to interpret this scene with which are saying quite the opposite… That is not too credible…
Apart from that… why ask her if she cannot do anything? I mean that does not make sense to me. If the regular Catholic is being told to ask Mary, he thinks that she will be able to change things… Why isn’t there any clarification by the Church? Why is there even more complication?
2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes, for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.

BTW… Why is the improper use of the name of Mary Blasphemy?
2162 The second commandment forbids every improper use of God’s name. Blasphemy is the use of the name of God, of Jesus Christ, of the Virgin Mary, and of the saints in an offensive way.

Once more you state your opinion-an opinion based on nothng more than your personal intperpeation of the cathecism. This again undrrline the fatal flaw of Protestatnism-refusing to believe that is any authority greater than themself when they interpret scripture or any other teaching,

 

[happilycatholic]

Excuse me happily catholic, I’m mixed up here I was commenting on Janet, I don’t know how that happened. You are so right about Guanophore and others like him it is why I keep reading the forums they really know how to communicate the truth, God bless them in their knowledge and God bless you happy catholic :thumbsup:Carlan

No problem

God Bless you too!

 

[happilycatholic]

(Apart form the fact that I don’t buy her resurrection story…) How how does this passage reflect back on Christ? Even if the power came from Christ and through her obedience, that does not change the title the Church is giving her.

We are all being conformed to the image of Christ. The Apostle Paul urges us, by the mercies of God, to present our bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is our spiritual service of worship. He tells us not to be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of the mind.

 

[GodIsGracious]

How how does this passage reflect back on Christ?

I deleted the rest of your post because I am only going to address this one question.

It has been shown to you three times. Three. The third time I not only bolded the part where things point back to Christ, I highlighted it with a bigger font size as well.

Clearly, you keep ignoring that part of the passage - the passage that you only quote part of. The rest of it was pasted to keep things in context and to CLEARLY SHOW how Mary’s intercessions all point back to Christ.

Yet, for the third time, you conveniently ignored it. From this I can only gather that trying to answer the rest of your questions would be fruitless as you would ignore what is shown to be proof in answer to your questions yet you would ignore those answers.

Please don’t think that by pasting partial quotes (taken sorely out of context to boot) that you’re proving your points. It is simply a mish mash of quotes.

Frankly, I would take the word of the Holy Catholic Church, who is protected and guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[imjustme]

No-you quote the cathecism and then expect everyone to accept you prsonal interpreation of what it says even when it clearly does not support your argument.

I am still wating for you to show us in the Cathecism or anywhereelse that the church teachs we are to worship Mary. Cut & pasting every mention of Mary in the Cathecism and claimimg that is proof doesnt cut it.

The problem is that as a Baptist you have made yourslef the sole arbiter of what sciprute says(and it appears what the Cathecism says). When someone disagrees with your personal interpration you take offnese. Which birngs us full circle as to to where we began -how do we resolve these disuptes on what Scripture says?

My post No. 220 was in reply to this request.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5476830&postcount=220

 

[estesbob]

My post No. 220 was in reply to this request.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5476830&postcount=220

And where in this post does it show the Church instructing Catholics to worship Mary-or are to blindly accept you pesonal interpetation of the cathecism as we are your personal interpretation of Scripture?

 

[Carlan]

Once more you state your opinion-an opinion based on nothng more than your personal intperpeation of the Gothicism. This again undrrline the fatal flaw of Protestatnism-refusing to believe that is any authority greater than them self when they interpret scripture or any other teaching,

Hello Estedbob, each and everyone one of the protesters of the Apostolic church,and the millions protesting each other in the thousands and thousands of different denominations,claim the Holy Spirit has given them each the gift of interpretation. How can that be? I suspect they are listening to some other spirit.:shrug:Carlan

 

[happilycatholic]

Hello Estedbob, each and everyone one of the protesters of the Apostolic church,and the millions protesting each other in the thousands and thousands of different denominations,claim the Holy Spirit has given them each the gift of interpretation. How can that be? I suspect they are listening to some other spirit.:shrug:Carlan

Yes, mostly the spirit of the divine *I want my cake and eat it too. *As in I want Mary to have given birth to God in the flesh, but I also want her to be a sinful human like me. (As if that even makes sense) Oh, and I want Jesus to have had brothers and sisters and to have been married and have children.

Why must we be so determined to humanize the Holy Spirit?

 

[estesbob]

Yes, mostly the spirit of the divine *I want my cake and eat it too. *As in I want Mary to have given birth to God in the flesh, but I also want her to be a sinful human like me. (As if that even makes sense) Oh, and I want Jesus to have had brothers and sisters and to have been married and have children.

Why must we be so determined to humanize the Holy Spirit?

They went from “the Pope is infallible” to “I am infallible”