P
Paul3144
Guest
Woah… you think Catholics are unsaved?
- Status
I
imjustme
Guest
Thank you for explaining in such detail. It seems that our belief on this is not identical but very similar. We both believe that sanctification happens as a result of justification and that it is a gradual process beginning in regeneration, which sets us apart to God’s purposes.
I
imjustme
Guest
I did not say (nor do I think) that Catholics are unsaved - Only God knows for sure.
Where did you get the idea that this is what I think? Is it because I said that my son is a born again Christian? He found his church community on his own in his late teens (with the help of the Holy Spirit, I’m sure!) and decided that he wanted to be baptised as an adult and be born-again.
Regarding Catholics being saved or not, you may be interested in this link which gives a biblical perspective on the question.
gotquestions.org/catholicism.html
R
Roman_Catholic_1
Guest
I am not Paul but I think he may have gotten the idea from what you wrote
Then of course you go on to refer him to a site which states that if a Catholic is saved it is despite their Catholic beliefs… ie the only saved Catholic is the one who is not Catholic.
God bless
E
Earnest_Bunbury
Guest
I was a protester, now Catholic going on a year plus, and can say that there is a transcendent power of Grace in the sacraments, and since God is transcendent (as evidenced by Jesus using Father in reference to God) the power of Grace is transcendent as well. The will that moves our actions is itself moved by the spirit, the soul, within and united to us. This is powered either by us alone or by us in union with God, Jesus’ “yoke”. A yoke is made for two oxen. His “yoke” is easy because He is also pulling, indicating some work does need to be done by us, a cooperation if you will.I’ll try again.The bread and wine undergo no physical change. My view is not that Christ is present in a physical way, but rather that Christ is spiritually present. God then uses the experience of Communion as a means of grace when a worthy believer receives the elements. The grace is not bound up in the bread and wine, but God uses the ordinances as one way to reach out to us and meet us by faith.
In short, I hold to the Calvinist or Reformed view of the ordinances; most other U.S. Baptists hold to memorialism.
A search for the truth is a search for Jesus, who is the Truth, the Truth of philosophy, theology, love, grace, power of action in the soul, and the proper end of all things in creation. Jesus saves, how, is a mystery. The different meanings or even personal interpretations of the Scripture is certainly not the end of the reality of what is taking place, this must be decided authoritatively as the apostles were charged to do. Their successors contended with Jesus’ divinity, Arianism, divine nature, Nestorianism, and many other heresies, doctrines of the Church that protestants mostly agree with today. This authority is exercised by the Catholic Church still today and its teachings have stood the test of time in as much as the members of sinful humanity, as we all are, running the Church have not. What the Church stands for is guided by the Holy Spirit. This authority is what brought me to accept grace in faith, to accept the “yoke” of Jesus and His help in the power of the sacraments of His Church.
S
sunohc
Guest
Hm, first post, but i’ve been reading from these forums from time to time.I’ll try again.
In short, I hold to the Calvinist or Reformed view of the ordinances; most other U.S. Baptists hold to memorialism.
So I’m sort of sorry to pick on your post first to comment on,
This is reference link to what I am trying to say,
catholic-legate.com/articles/transubstantiation_explained.html
but, basically, the Catholic Church believes (see “catechism transubstantiation” in google) believes that the SUBSTANCE of the Eucharist changes, and not the molecules or physical properties of the actual bread.
I know that Protestants would believe that Christ is in you, and that you can feel the presence of Christ around you literally, which all refers to the fact that something normal in this world, a SUBSTANCE in this world has been literally changed. Regular things can change in SUBSTANCE and ESSENCE because God is not limited to anything.
Therefore, to believe in transubstantiation in quite consistent with Christianity beliefs. Though we cannot see an actual difference of “atmosphere” or “air” when the Holy Spirit is around, we can feel a thickness in the air, we can feel the chills throughout our body during worship and agree that there are been a REAL, SUBSTANCE change…
Does this make a little sense?
When I take communion, I don’t think that I’m just only repeating a spiritual ritual or remembrance act, but I really hope and believe in faith that I am letting Jesus permeate throughout my body and I feel so joyful that I am loved by God so much that I am able to digest him into my body. The closeness I feel during communion is not symbolic, I believe there has been a substance change and it’s in faith I believe this. Though the “physical properties” of the bread never really changed, I know the substance did, and THIS is what I believe the Catholic Church teaches on transubstantiation…
my two cents
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Hi, welcome to the forum.
I guess you are referring to Jn 10:10. It means ultimately the eternal life, but nevertheless to logically achieve this objective one must have abundant life on this earth in order than we can live a life that is required of us. You are right to some extant as to the implication of abundant life and what it truly means.
However how you achieve the things you said you want to do – that requires grace of God. I must say that grace comes from the power of the Holy Spirit because on our own we are natural human and of the flesh. How do you think you can achieve those ideals if you are relying on your own strength?
You will find that grace in the person of Jesus and in His Church. Therefore you cannot exclude the Catholic Church as the foundation for you to achieve that.
I found the Catholic Church allows us to do exactly just that. Mother Teresa would come to mind perhaps because she was one of the more famous Christians in this area of ministry. What is your impression of her in this aspect?
Not exactly true of the Catholic Church unfortunately. Even if some of those are true, there is rationale for them.
God bless.
M
Mannyfit75
Guest
That is a complete misunderstanding on your part, Clark. We Catholics do believe it but you only require to believed. We believe, and are baptized. I would suggest you read the entire passage rather than just one verse.
Take a look for yourself.
31 But they said: Believe in the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 32 And they preached the word of the Lord to him and to all that were in his house. 33 And he, taking them the same hour of the night, washed their stripes, and himself was baptized, and all his house immediately. 34 And when he had brought them into his own house, he laid the table for them, and rejoiced with all his house, believing God. 35 And when the day was come, the magistrates sent the serjeants, saying, Let those men go. - Book of Acts Chapter 16:31-35
M
Mannyfit75
Guest
I wonder after all that years you been a Catholic, you never read the Bible? Perhaps, I miss the memo that the Pope send that discourages Catholics to the Bible when it fact it does. The Liturgy of the Mass comes straight from the Scripture, the First Reading (OT), Second Reading (Letters), and Gospels (One of the four Gospels). Surely, when you heard it being read out loud, it might encourage you to read the Bible on your own. I did.
Second, these inconsistence you have about Scripture and Catholic doctrines? Most of that is your fallible interpretation of our doctrine. You might be indoctrinated in the faith, but personally, I do not think you taken it from very seriously, and during that time, I ponder whether you had a prayful life. As a Catholic, there are no inconsistence in Scripture.
There are thousands in inconsistences with Protestant beliefs because each Protestant is his own magisterium. You won’t find one unity set of belief. Some pastor might have different view on the Rapture, while another says that there will be multiple Second Coming…7 maybe…
C
Carlan
Guest
Thank you Sunohc for that post, much more than two cents worth, it is the whole truth and center of what we believe the Holy Eucharist to be, HIS WHOLE BODY SOUL AND DIVINITY under the appearance of bread and wine.CarlanHm, first post, but i’ve been reading from these forums from time to time.
So I’m sort of sorry to pick on your post first to comment on,
This is reference link to what I am trying to say,
catholic-legate.com/articles/transubstantiation_explained.html
but, basically, the Catholic Church believes (see “catechism transubstantiation” in google) believes that the SUBSTANCE of the Eucharist changes, and not the molecules or physical properties of the actual bread.
I know that Protestants would believe that Christ is in you, and that you can feel the presence of Christ around you literally, which all refers to the fact that something normal in this world, a SUBSTANCE in this world has been literally changed. Regular things can change in SUBSTANCE and ESSENCE because God is not limited to anything.
Therefore, to believe in transubstantiation in quite consistent with Christianity beliefs. Though we cannot see an actual difference of “atmosphere” or “air” when the Holy Spirit is around, we can feel a thickness in the air, we can feel the chills throughout our body during worship and agree that there are been a REAL, SUBSTANCE change…
Does this make a little sense?
When I take communion, I don’t think that I’m just only repeating a spiritual ritual or remembrance act, but I really hope and believe in faith that I am letting Jesus permeate throughout my body and I feel so joyful that I am loved by God so much that I am able to digest him into my body. The closeness I feel during communion is not symbolic, I believe there has been a substance change and it’s in faith I believe this. Though the “physical properties” of the bread never really changed, I know the substance did, and THIS is what I believe the Catholic Church teaches on transubstantiation…
my two cents
K
Korotkov
Guest
Hi!
I’m not a catholic because they tend to fight around a lot. This is pretty much the same reason I’m not a muslim either I think. Although muslims got some pretty nasty stuff in that book of theirs. The local lutheran chuch is pretty much about being good to others and not leaving anyone outside so I find it likeable. Its all about being good to everyone else I guess!
PS: My first real post here! I hope you dont mind me being a lutheran!
I’m not a catholic because they tend to fight around a lot. This is pretty much the same reason I’m not a muslim either I think. Although muslims got some pretty nasty stuff in that book of theirs. The local lutheran chuch is pretty much about being good to others and not leaving anyone outside so I find it likeable. Its all about being good to everyone else I guess!
PS: My first real post here! I hope you dont mind me being a lutheran!
Z
Zundrah
Guest
Okay, since you asked, my definition of being CATHOLIC is this;
1 - Accepting the pope as the actual office place decended line from peter in the bible.
2 - That Christ literally meant “on this rock I will build this church”, and that the catholic church is the one church that remained the same church that was errected by peter.
3 - That you can pray to and with the communion of saints.
4 - That you can pray to Mary.
Does this make sense?
I think that I didn’t write these sentences properly…Wait! I will add that you don’t have to go to catholic chruch to be catholic!
xxx zundrah (jennifer) xxx
Z
Zundrah
Guest
LOL - you are funny! We don’t mind you being a Lutheran!
Z
Zundrah
Guest
R
Roman_Catholic_1
Guest
I responded to a comment that I misread. Since I misread the comment my answer made no sense. I see my attempt at correcting it did not relieve the problem
God bless
Z
Zundrah
Guest
You are funny!I responded to a comment that I misread. Since I misread the comment my answer made no sense. I see my attempt at correcting it did not relieve the problem
God bless
Go here, on this link for a great debate;
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=358104
J
JPayne
Guest
Coming from someone who is leaving the protestant side of this discussion. I would say that my total misconceptions and lack of understaning on the Catholic Churche’s teachings and beliefs are what held me back. I was a “solid” baptist boy. I was one of the youth leaders in my church, and started giving sermons at community events. Heck, I even preached at the Dixie Youth World Series Community Service. It was my study of scripture and history that lead me to search for answers. Those answers came form the Catholic Church. This lead me further into the teachings about Mary and others many of us protestants have against the Catholic Church. This all started making sense to me. Long story short; here I am on my way home (to the CC), and loving every minuite of it!
In the article given about the salvation of catholics and the belief of works and so on to be saved. To me, it’s belief and love of Christ that command us to follow his teachings. Which move us to “work” for his name. The works are our “fruit” of our faith.
A faith without works is a dead faith. And to me, a dead faith is no faith.
A vine without fruit is a dead vine. And to me, a dead vine is the same as no vine.
God bless,
Jesse
In the article given about the salvation of catholics and the belief of works and so on to be saved. To me, it’s belief and love of Christ that command us to follow his teachings. Which move us to “work” for his name. The works are our “fruit” of our faith.
A faith without works is a dead faith. And to me, a dead faith is no faith.
A vine without fruit is a dead vine. And to me, a dead vine is the same as no vine.
God bless,
Jesse
R
Roman_Catholic_1
Guest
Welcome to the forums korotkov. Since this is your first post I will try my best to go easy on you
However could you explain by what you mean when you say Catholics “fight around a lot”?
I do not mind. There are quite a few Lutheran posters around here who have had positive contributions.
God bless you
B
Brooke
Guest
He had already repented though. and he practically said that he believed in christ, since he believed in wanting to get saved… the apostles just said that since they could tell he had everything else to get saved. faith especially.
G
guanophore
Guest
This is a modern notion that departs significantly from what the Apostles believed and taught. The Apostles did not separate justification from sanctification and glorification. All of these were “salvation” to them.
Are you under the misapprehension that sanctification and glorification are “earned”?
We are in agreement that sanctification is a process of moving toward holiness. However, since nothing unclean can enter heaven, we should not think that we will enter in any state but fully sanctified.
Catholics believe that the holy works that God predestined for us are as much a part of our salvation as the gift of faith.
- Status