Protestants; why won't you be CATHOLIC!?

[GodIsGracious]

Someone asked a non-Catholic to show where it says that Mary is to be worshipped in Catholic doctrine and I did…now you say it is “semantics”…I am getting the feeling that anything we (non-Catholics) say will be discarded as semantics or worse…

Here is something from the Catechism of the Catholic Church that says “we can pray with and to her”

2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (prayer), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes,39 for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. the prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.

From: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P9F.HTM

Please understand that I’m no trying to dismiss Mary as a blessed woman, but prayer to God must be only through Jesus. This is why this topic is upsetting to (some) other Christians.

John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

For example, I manage a company and am the gatekeeper for the owner. Someone wanting to sell us something needs to deal with me directly. They seem to always want to talk to the owner. If they talk to the bookkeeper, she will forward it to me…likewise if they talk to the owner, he will forward it to me…I am the one they need to talk to. Now if someone wants to sell us something and they try to go through the bookkeeper behind my back when I’ve told them to come to me, I’m not going to be happy and may even disregard their offer for trying to go around me or behind my back.

JESUS told us to go to him directly! Why is that so hard to obey? Where does it say “Ask Mary if you don’t want to ask me directly” ?? No where…and don’t refer me to Jesus asking John to take care of her or some far flung verse that has nothing at all to do with getting to God or heaven. Jesus is our Savior! He died on the cross for us! He said to go to Him…don’t we owe Him that little bit of honor and respect?

I don’t understand why protestants dismiss Mary so much and are so adamant to do so. It’s as if they get all pissy and offended if anyone so much as brings up Mary as a helper or anywhere near a helper.

Your business analogy is not a good one. Sorry. We’re talking about Christ’s mother. We’re not talking about a business. And even so, pretty much many “gatekeepers” do have secretaries.

Has anyone ever gone to your mother, MOTHER, and asked her to ask you to do something? You had the power to do something for someone but they asked your mother as a way to help gain more favor? Why would you deny YOUR OWN MOTHER a favor, a request made by YOUR MOTHER, that would be in line with what you can do and do do? Why do you dismiss and disregard YOUR OWN MOTHER in that respect? How would you like it if someone came up to you and said to your face that YOUR OWN MOTHER doesn’t matter? That she’s nothing? Oh sure, she bore you - simple breeding machine that she is, but now that you’re here we don’t need to show her respect. She’s just some woman and you’re the only one that matters now.

Secondly, one of the things that protestants don’t get, and yes, I’m getting into semantics here, is when a Catholic says we pray “to” someone (other than Christ or God) there is a common understanding that what that means is we are asking for their intercession. Most protestants are so sola fide that they can’t seem to grasp the subtleties of language. Sorry, but that is what you protestants do. You play semantic games and think you take things literally but you don’t. We have SHOWN you how it is that she CONFORMS TO CHRIST HIMSELF and yet, you refuse to even acknowledge that. Don’t forget, a prayer is a petition. We are PETITIONING our Blessed Mother for her HELP.

Again, you’re taking one paragraph (as you do with bible verses) out to show or “prove” your point without taking the whole Catechism into consideration.

BTW, we DO go to Christ directly, in the Mass and with the Holy Eucharist. Why is that so hard for protestants to OBEY? Why is it so hard to understand where everything you have been shown about Mary is that it all points to Christ our saviour himself? EVERYTHING that the Catholic church does is for our salvation, it is to point us to Christ, who IS our salvation. Protestants just can’t (or won’t) seem to GET that.

And this is why the Catholic church has THE FULLNESS of the Truth. We get it all. You don’t. Sorry.

 

[GodIsGracious]

Someone asked a non-Catholic to show where it says that Mary is to be worshipped in Catholic doctrine and I did…now you say it is “semantics”…I am getting the feeling that anything we (non-Catholics) say will be discarded as semantics or worse…

Here is something from the Catechism of the Catholic Church that says “we can pray with and to her”

2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (prayer), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes,39 for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. the prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.

From: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P9F.HTM

Please understand that I’m no trying to dismiss Mary as a blessed woman, but prayer to God must be only through Jesus. This is why this topic is upsetting to (some) other Christians.

John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

For example, I manage a company and am the gatekeeper for the owner. Someone wanting to sell us something needs to deal with me directly. They seem to always want to talk to the owner. If they talk to the bookkeeper, she will forward it to me…likewise if they talk to the owner, he will forward it to me…I am the one they need to talk to. Now if someone wants to sell us something and they try to go through the bookkeeper behind my back when I’ve told them to come to me, I’m not going to be happy and may even disregard their offer for trying to go around me or behind my back.

JESUS told us to go to him directly! Why is that so hard to obey? Where does it say “Ask Mary if you don’t want to ask me directly” ?? No where…and don’t refer me to Jesus asking John to take care of her or some far flung verse that has nothing at all to do with getting to God or heaven. Jesus is our Savior! He died on the cross for us! He said to go to Him…don’t we owe Him that little bit of honor and respect?

Part II.

Also, when a Catholic asks a protestant to show where we worship Mary, and a protestant does, that protestant, even though they don’t like it, is being corrected because they have an incorrect understanding of what it is we teach. We’re not dismissing it, we’re correcting an error. Would you not correct an error you see? Of course, because you’re attempting to do so now. And even your “correction” is in error.

I wanted to add this:

Also, look further up in that page in the Catechism, there is this:

2676 This twofold movement of prayer to Mary has found a privileged expression in the Ave Maria:
Hail Mary [or Rejoice, Mary]: the greeting of the angel Gabriel opens this prayer. It is God himself who, through his angel as intermediary, greets Mary. Our prayer dares to take up this greeting to Mary with the regard God had for the lowliness of his humble servant and to exult in the joy he finds in her.30
Full of grace, the Lord is with thee: These two phrases of the angel’s greeting shed light on one another. Mary is full of grace because the Lord is with her. the grace with which she is filled is the presence of him who is the source of all grace. "Rejoice . . . O Daughter of Jerusalem . . . the Lord your God is in your midst."31 Mary, in whom the Lord himself has just made his dwelling, is the daughter of Zion in person, the ark of the covenant, the place where the glory of the Lord dwells. She is "the dwelling of God . . . with men."32 Full of grace, Mary is wholly given over to him who has come to dwell in her and whom she is about to give to the world.
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. After the angel’s greeting, we make Elizabeth’s greeting our own. “Filled with the Holy Spirit,” Elizabeth is the first in the long succession of generations who have called Mary "blessed."33 "Blessed is she who believed…"34 Mary is “blessed among women” because she believed in the fulfillment of the Lord’s word. Abraham. because of his faith, became a blessing for all the nations of the earth.35 Mary, because of her faith, became the mother of believers, through whom all nations of the earth receive him who is God’s own blessing: Jesus, the “fruit of thy womb.”

God sends an angel, Gabriel, as an intermediary. Why didn’t he just talk to Mary himself? Secondly, why did he even bother with Mary when he simply could have created Christ and poof there he is! On this earth! To save all of mankind!

Even God himself went through Mary as an intermediary to Christ. We have that in several places in our faith, where we have intermediaries to God. It is calling us ALL to be intermediaries for each other to help each other to Christ.

 

[GodIsGracious]

I know what the RC teachings on the infallibility (typo?) of the Bishop of Rome is, but thank you for clarifying

Secondly, I didn’t mean it to be derogatory. It’s just that some over-sensitive people (or those wanting to change the subject) might have taken the word “submission” and used it to start off a rambling about how misunderstood they are, etc.

“Just because YOU say that the Catholic Church is making a “claim,” it doesn’t make the claim by the Church false. You simply don’t believe it.”

Agreed, but it doesn’t make it true, either.

“There ARE people, some of whom consider themselves Christian, who believe Christ had brothers and sisters. There are even some who believe he was married too. And since they believe he was married, they also believe he had children.”

True, but if you look at their teachings, they are not Christians. Not one of those people could subscribe, I would guess, to any one of the Ancient Symbols, be it Apostolicum, Nicaenum-Constantinopolitanum or Athanasium.
Therefore, they are not Christians.
To CALL yourself “Christian” is meaningless if you reject those basic Christian truths contained therein.

Maybe so, but they do call themselves Christian, look at Mormons. They believe they are Christian, yet they are not.

And yes, the claim is true. We can show apostolic succession.

 

[Zundrah]

WHAT DOES BEING CATHOLIC REALLY MEAN?
What makes catholics different to protestants?

 

[Carlan]

No, Carlan, she does not qualify for the status of heretic. A heretic, by defnition, must have willfully chosen to abandon the truth after knowing and embracing it. It is clear that she was poorly catechized, and never understood the Catholic faith. If she had, she never would have left. Even now, she cannot articulate Catholic beliefs well enough to adequately attack them!

Besides, it is not fruitful to use labels of this sort. It only engenders hostility and does not promote useful discussion. The most that can be said of her is that she has embraced heretical doctrines, but she clearly has done so in good faith, sincerely believing that she has found the truth.

Right, thanks for the correction guanophore, I do get off my bike at timesCarlan.

 

[Carlan]

Right, thanks for the correction guanophore, I do get off my bike at timesCarlan.

Hopefully I will get better at this as I go along! C

 

[distracted]

WHAT DOES BEING CATHOLIC REALLY MEAN?
What makes catholics different to protestants?

the Eucharist/Real Presence

(and infallible Church teachings…)

 

[guanophore]

Someone asked a non-Catholic to show where it says that Mary is to be worshipped in Catholic doctrine and I did…now you say it is “semantics”…I am getting the feeling that anything we (non-Catholics) say will be discarded as semantics or worse…

I am not yet convinced that this is from a Catholic source, since you did not post a link. However, if it is (I will give you the benefit of the doubt) since the Catholic Church does not believe or teach that any created being is to be given worship only due to God, then whenever this word is used, then it is describing one of the lesser forms of honor and veneration. As I said, there are three meanings in Latin, and all of them are translated “worship” in English, so that causes much confusion. It is like the word “love” in English. The Gk is much more specific, and clear, because there are 4 different words used to describe the aspects of it.

You are right, though, heresy will be discarded. It is a violation of the first commandment to worship any other than God. Therefore, if the word is seen, then it must mean something other than what you think it means.

Here is something from the Catechism of the Catholic Church that says “we can pray with and to her”

2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (prayer), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes,39 for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. the prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.

From: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P9F.HTM

Please understand that I’m no trying to dismiss Mary as a blessed woman, but prayer to God must be only through Jesus. This is why this topic is upsetting to (some) other Christians.

Yes, I understand why it is upsetting. People think for some reason that when we asked our loved ones to pray for us, that they are praying in some other manner than through Jesus. This is not true. In this context, prayer means supplication. We ask Mary to intercede for us, just as I might ask a prayer warrior grandma that lives in the complex, whose prayer life I respect. I pray my neighbor, please interceded for xy, or z. Pray = ask = supplicate.

John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Are you under some misapprehension that Mary does not go through Jesus? Scripture tells us that the effectual fervent prayer of the righteous has great power in it’s effects. Our mama wears combat boots, so we ask for her prayers.

JESUS told us to go to him directly! Why is that so hard to obey? Where does it say “Ask Mary if you don’t want to ask me directly” ??

Asking for the prayers of others does not mean we do not go to Him directly. Such a statement seems to reflect a complete lack of knowledge about intercessory prayer and spiritual warfare.

No where…and don’t refer me to Jesus asking John to take care of her or some far flung verse that has nothing at all to do with getting to God or heaven.

It may seem to you that getting to God and getting to heaven have nothing to do with our brothers and sisters, but the Apostles taught that we are members one of another. We can all help, or hurt one another in His One Body, the Church. He founded the Church because He felt it was necessary. He instructed us to pray one for another. He taught us to treat one another as family . Well, I always ask my family for prayers. Their prayers help me stay in step with Him, and to get me to heaven.

 Jesus is our Savior! He died on the cross for us! He said to go to Him...don't we owe Him that little bit of honor and respect?

You erroneously think that having others support our spiritual journey means that we do not honor and respect Him. On the contrary, when we fail to make use of the resources He has provided for our spiritual welfare, we are disdaining His gifts.

 

[Carlan]

WHAT DOES BEING CATHOLIC REALLY MEAN?
What makes catholics different to protestants?

hello Zundrah, I thought you started this thread ., There are some excellent Catholic Apologists aboard and something like almost 3oo posts already and you are in R.C.I.A. I do think you are you are having us on. Now be a good girl . C

 

[guanophore]

Right, thanks for the correction guanophore, I do get off my bike at timesCarlan.

I hope I can ride mine as well as you do when I get to where you are!

 

[estesbob]

Knowing your style, you’re trying to set a trap. The answer is probably Martin Luther, and you know what?
I don’t really care all that much.

See, Luther was not infallible, although some RCs still claim that Lutherans say he was.
Secondly, you just underlined my point, and you’ll understand why, if you know a little about Luther’s background.

EXACLY! It is specious for me to google up random, out of context , Martin Luther quotes and then claim it gives me some kind of profound theoligical insights into what Lutherans beleive.

Yet many of our Seperated Bretheran in this thread do exactly that with te Church and Marian doctrine.

 

[estesbob]

One thing apparent reading this thread is the Protestants who reject the Church do so out of a profound ignorance of exactly what it is the Church teaches.Does anyone else find it humorous that they spend hundreds of posts trying to convince us exactly what it is WE believe?

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

Hello Earnest, I am sorry for losing my cool, really do abhor the dart throwing in forums of this kind but I am not in the same league as some apologists responding to these posts. you know my intolerance is not directed toward people, who because of some protesters 500year ago disobeyed and would not stay in the church to correct the wrong with-in her.todays Protestants cannot beblamed for their disobediance . I pray God Love us all and bring all into the unity of his Church, Jesus longs for it. My intolerance is toward those Catholics who leave the Church for whatever reason and turn their backs away from the Apostolic Church and become anit-catholic and heretics. I feel in the end,unless they change their bitter ways, they are in danger of losing it all. I know, I do need to pray about my intolerance.Carlan

I have seen vitriol and intolerance on this site, and what you post 'aint it. I was just using your “spirit” as a jumping off point for my two cents.
I’ve been told I would “burn someone at the stake” in one post. That is Vitriol.

Truth must be told and the truth of the Catholic Church is in it’s teaching and is proven in the teaching on Natural law being the basis for our participation in God’s Eternal Law. This is the basis for moral absolutes and is in the constant teaching of the Church, including against “faith alone”. St. Michael’s “Who is like unto God” was answered by Satan: “I will not serve”. The answer is in humility.

 

[GodIsGracious]

One thing apparent reading this thread is the Protestants who reject the Church do so out of a profound ignorance of exactly what it is the Church teaches.Does anyone else find it humorous that they spend hundreds of posts trying to convince us exactly what it is WE believe?

Yes, I do.

But what is rather annoying, and I was thinking about this this morning, is that we TELL THEM what we believe but yet they refuse to take it for an answer. I kind of wonder if some (not saying all) of them were to actually accept the answer we tell them (not saying they have to believe it, just simply accept the answer) that it would then have them question other ideas they have about Catholicism. I mean really, heaven forfend that when we defend the faith we are actually RIGHT about it’s teachings!

What they’re essentially doing is calling us liars. I was also thinking about this this morning and wondering if some of these Protestants are talking with a background of Catholics lie, or that the Catholic church teaches lies, and so it occurs to me that if they just make US “see” where our church errs, we’d wake up, or realize what’s going on.

The thing is that most Catholics I know that defend the faith, and some that try (like me, albeit poorly I am sure as I’m not a chapter and verse kind of person), have studied and are continuously studying.

estesbob, you actually asked the question I’ve been thinking about lately. It’s like, why can’t a protestant simply accept the answer we give them? It’s like, what’s the deal? We’re TELLING THEM what it means yet they refuse to accept it. (Again, not saying they have to believe.) The whole “praying to Mary” thing is a perfect example. They think we’re worshiping her when we’re TELLING THEM that we’re NOT worshipping her. Some of them simply cannot say, “Oh, so ok, you’re not worshipping Mary, I was wrong about that. Ok, thanks for the info.”

Personally, I suspect, and this is only a suspicion, is that if they were to give up one idea that they thought they were right about, then it gets them questioning other ideas or thoughts they had about Catholicism. Doubt seeps in and what they thought they knew as true is now suddenly becoming false. That’s scary. To let go of old ideas. I’ve seen that happen to people I know.

At anyrate, that’s just my office armchair psycho-babble on why I think some cannot simply accept an answer.

But seriously, why can’t Protestants simply accept some answers? And I’m talking about answers on how we practice our faith. Answers on scriptural interpretation is a different matter and I can understand not simply accepting answers. Especially when you have a whole bunch of little popes running around thinking they know how to interpret what they read. The answers I’m talking about are answers on how we practice our faith and what it means to Catholics. Why can’t they simply say, “Oh, ok. I got that wrong. So that’s what you Catholics do and that’s what it means. Got it.” I think it’s pride and ego that stand in the way of humbly realizing they were wrong about how we practice our faith.

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

But seriously, why can’t Protestants simply accept some answers?

Pride…From St. Thomas: On the contrary, It is written (Sirach 10:15): “Pride is the beginning of all sin.”…It may also be said that apostasy from God is said to be the beginning of pride, because it is the first species of pride. For it is characteristic of pride to be unwilling to be subject to any superior, and especially to God; the result being that a man is unduly lifted up, in respect of the other species of pride. newadvent.org/summa/2084.htm#article2

Let’s not forget the help of the devil in all this. He leads astray the best of us, namely Adam and Eve, who were in the state of original justice but lost it due to pride. A humble search for the truth and asking God to lead one to Him. It is so easy to have assurance and hard to be humble. One must “test every spirit” as St. Paul states.

Faith and reason also, as JPII states. This is obscured by original sin. The protestant doctrine of “total depravity”, not adhered to by all, is the basis for rejecting reason. This leads to fanaticism, and pride, and a lack of ability to see the truth. I see a loving instruction in truth is what is required with sacrifice and prayer to God for His help to reveal what “flesh and blood” can’t.

 

[Sellers1]

Protestants, what ever your denomination is, please tell me why you will not be Catholic!?

xxx jennifer xxx

For the same reason I am not Jewish or Jehovah’s Witness or any other denomination. It’s all about truth and it’s all about Christ!

 

[estesbob]

For the same reason I am not Jewish or Jehovah’s Witness or any other denomination. It’s all about truth and it’s all about Christ!

How do you discern the Truth?

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

For the same reason I am not Jewish or Jehovah’s Witness or any other denomination. It’s all about truth and it’s all about Christ!

But truth is the reason given for belief in those religions sited, and the basis for those religions themselves in opposition to your denomination. Also that is the basis for denying the faith, “I don’t believe because it is true not to”. What is true about it as opposed to Catholic faith. Hopefully we can instruct in charity.

Abortion, sex as recreation, killing the old, the sick, and the disabled, all rejected absolutely in Catholic Church teaching. If it is about Christ then the Church that teaches this is truly “about Christ”.

 

[Reuben_J]

Please understand that I’m no trying to dismiss Mary as a blessed woman, but prayer to God must be only through Jesus. This is why this topic is upsetting to (some) other Christians.

John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

For example, I manage a company and am the gatekeeper for the owner. Someone wanting to sell us something needs to deal with me directly. They seem to always want to talk to the owner. If they talk to the bookkeeper, she will forward it to me…likewise if they talk to the owner, he will forward it to me…I am the one they need to talk to. Now if someone wants to sell us something and they try to go through the bookkeeper behind my back when I’ve told them to come to me, I’m not going to be happy and may even disregard their offer for trying to go around me or behind my back.

JESUS told us to go to him directly! Why is that so hard to obey? Where does it say “Ask Mary if you don’t want to ask me directly” ?? No where…and don’t refer me to Jesus asking John to take care of her or some far flung verse that has nothing at all to do with getting to God or heaven. Jesus is our Savior! He died on the cross for us! He said to go to Him…don’t we owe Him that little bit of honor and respect?

No one comes to the father except through Jesus because he is the way and the truth and the life. Not through Buddha, not through Mohammad; not through Siva.

Nothing to do with Christian’s prayer of intercession.

 

[happilycatholic]

Oh yes…

I don’t WANT to believe in hell. I would MUCH prefer it if hell didn’t exist (or rather: Will not come into existence).
That does not, however, change the fact that Scriptures talk about hell, and that it is described as a very real place, where some(most) people will go.

Okee dokee.