Protestants; why won't you be CATHOLIC!?

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All this animosity makes me feel bad. I think we can agree on some things:
  1. Then, after speaking in many and varied ways through the prophets, “now at last in these days God has spoken to us in His Son” (Heb. 1:1-2). For He sent His Son, the eternal Word, who enlightens all men, so that He might dwell among men and tell them of the innermost being of God (see John 1:1-18). Jesus Christ, therefore, the Word made flesh, was sent as “a man to men.” He “speaks the words of God” (John 3;34), and completes the work of salvation which His Father gave Him to do (see John 5:36; John 17:4). To see Jesus is to see His Father (John 14:9). For this reason Jesus perfected revelation by fulfilling it through his whole work of making Himself present and manifesting Himself: through His words and deeds, His signs and wonders, but especially through His death and glorious resurrection from the dead and final sending of the Spirit of truth. Moreover He confirmed with divine testimony what revelation proclaimed, that God is with us to free us from the darkness of sin and death, and to raise us up to life eternal.
The Christian dispensation, therefore, as the new and definitive covenant, will never pass away and we now await no further new public revelation before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ (see 1 Tim. 6:14 and Tit. 2:13).
  1. “The obedience of faith” (Rom. 13:26; see 1:5; 2 Cor 10:5-6) “is to be given to God who reveals, an obedience by which man commits his whole self freely to God, offering the full submission of intellect and will to God who reveals,” and freely assenting to the truth revealed by Him. **To make this act of faith, the grace of God and the interior help of the Holy Spirit must precede and assist, moving the heart and turning it to God, opening the eyes of the mind and giving “joy and ease to everyone in assenting to the truth and believing it.” To bring about an ever deeper understanding of revelation the same Holy Spirit constantly brings faith to completion by His gifts.**DEI VERBUM
We both don’t do or could do anything on our own to effect God’s attention or grace. This is a gift but we must accept it, this is the cooperation of which we speak.
  1. The Son, therefore, came, sent by the Father. It was in Him, before the foundation of the world, that the Father chose us and predestined us to become adopted sons, for in Him it pleased the Father to re-establish all things. To carry out the will of the Father, Christ inaugurated the Kingdom of heaven on earth and revealed to us the mystery of that kingdom. By His obedience He brought about redemption. LUMEN GENTIUM
This obedience is the cooperation shown by Jesus that we Catholics attempt through the grace that God gives us by our desire. Our desire to do good things in humility warrants (or not) God’s grace in our attempt to perform an action based on God’s will. It is a gift, we don’t deserve it, but our cooperation with it when given is meritorious. We do not presume we are in God’s Grace but strive everyday to be. This makes “once saved always saved” seem simplistic and wrong. Our obedience to the Father is what Jesus showed us to do, all the way to the Cross.
  1. Christ, the one Mediator, established and continually sustains here on earth His holy Church, the community of faith, hope and charity, as an entity with visible delineation through which He communicated truth and grace to all. LUMEN GENTIUM
One mediator, any other accusation is just wrong.
This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic,… **many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity.**LUMEN GENTIUM
This disunity is a scandal that effects the world. The humility and obedience shown by Christ is an example to us that we show to the Church, the same Church that wrote the above quotes.
  1. The restoration of unity among all Christians is one of the principal concerns of the Second Vatican Council. Christ the Lord founded one Church and one Church only. However, many Christian communions present themselves to men as the true inheritors of Jesus Christ; all indeed profess to be followers of the Lord but differ in mind and go their different ways, as if Christ Himself were divided. Such division openly contradicts the will of Christ, scandalizes the world, and damages the holy cause of preaching the Gospel to every creature.UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO
To fellow Catholics:
[E]very effort to avoid expressions, judgments and actions which do not represent the condition of our separated brethren with truth and fairness and so make mutual relations with them more difficult…
Charity is a prerequisite.
The intellectual nature of the human person is perfected by wisdom and needs to be, for wisdom gently attracts the mind of man to a quest and a love for what is true and good. Steeped in wisdom. man passes through visible realities to those which are unseen…It is, finally,** through the gift of the Holy Spirit that man comes by faith to the contemplation and appreciation of the divine plan.**GAUDIUM ET SPES
This truth is from God and we can seek it and accept it because we were made for the Good. the Good of God. We are attracted to what is good but it is God that makes our action meritorious. The attacks on Catholicism is unwarranted as is the attack on protestants themselves.
 
It is not a lack of undertanidng of the Bible that seperates us. it is you insistence that we ignore all who wne tbefore us and accept, without question, you personal interpretation of a handleful of scriptuere verses. you have based your entire theology on a small number of New Testament Scripture verses, taken out of context and twisted to fit you personal beleifs.
It is interesting how different Protestant denominations have their own individual templates they place over Scripture blocking out what they do not want to address and highlighting what they do. What is even more interesting is that individuals from these varied denominations will gladly give you their infallible interpretation of said highlighted Scripture verses and expect you to take them at their word all the while claiming that no one is infallible. :whacky:

Go figure !
 
Yes-they said what they meant. And what they meant is their is no salvation outside the Church. What they did not say is that one had to physically a member of the Church to obtain salvation. As others have show you ripped these quotes out of context(I suspect because you cut n pasted them from one of the mutlitude of anti-catholic sites that have them) and, as with scripture, expect eveyone to accept your personal interpretion without question.

It is especially sad to see one who was once a Catholic dismiss Church Doctrines with such shallow, superfical reasoning. You really do not know a lot about what the Church you rejected teaches, do you?
We both have to agree that Jesus is the one that saves and that, like Mary being the form of the Church, leads us to Jesus. We disagree on the how of salvation, not the fact that we need Jesus for salvation. The Church as the “Body of Christ”, outside of which we cannot be saved, is not at odds with the “many means of sanctification” outside of its visible structure. It is Jesus that saves.
 
That does not change their statements however… Whomever they were directed at, they did proclaim their teachings.
Why is it that church fathers are being quoted into today’s experience and pope’s are not?
They said it and they meant it:

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels,** unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, **and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”

By the way… I also quoted the following:
  • Pope Leo XII (1823-1829), Encyclical Ubi Primum
  • Pope Gregory XVI (1831-1846), Encyclical Summo Jugiter
  • Pope Pius IX (1846-1878), Encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore, 8
  • Pope Leo XIII (1878-1903), Encyclical Annum Ingressi Sumus
  • Pope Leo XIII (1878-1903), Encyclical Sapientiae Christianae
  • Pope Pius X (1903-1914), Encyclical Jucunda Sane
  • Pope Benedict XV (1914-1922), Encyclical Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum
  • Pope Pius XI (1922-1939), Encyclical Mortalium Animos
  • Pope Pius XII (1939-1958), Allocution to the Gregorian University (17 October 1953)
Janet, understand it, ponder it. Get it!

** Unless before death they are joined with her.** You read only that which suits you.

They are addressing, the Catholic Christians who desert the faith, as you did and live to deny Her. Carlan

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Janet, understand it, ponder it. Get it!

** Unless before death they are joined with her.** You read only that which suits you.

They are addressing, the Catholic Christians who desert the faith, as you did and live to deny Her. Carlan
as an Anti Catholic you can twist and turn speak out of context all you want, spew all the falseness until the end of time and it is not going to change or break Christ’ s, Church.

For you also, I pray for a 'Saul of Tarsus ’ experience. Carlan
I can give you some links to my sources (at papalencyclicals.net), so you can read it for yourself…
If you are looking for a collection (which I did not use as I just found it) look at traditionalcatholic.net … they have a collection on this Link.
catholicapologetics.info is another page that is great for that. Here is the Link.
None of the pages I used were claiming to be against the RCC, nor did they look like it in any form or fashion. I am not using anti-catholic material as I know that this might be tainted… I use catholic material…
 
I can give you some links to my sources (at papalencyclicals.net), so you can read it for yourself…
If you are looking for a collection (which I did not use as I just found it) look at traditionalcatholic.net … they have a collection on this Link.
catholicapologetics.info is another page that is great for that. Here is the Link.
None of the pages I used were claiming to be against the RCC, nor did they look like it in any form or fashion. I am not using anti-catholic material as I know that this might be tainted… I use catholic material…
What stricks me as un excusable is when confronting Catholics with their own contradictions they still maintain their stand. Whether it be as in this case that their teaching has changed over time or as I have in the past posting pictures of obvious idol worship.
 
Actually, you have said absolutely nothing in regards to my questions to you regarding Incarnational theology and its relationship to the Church.

Inquisition? Where did that come from? You brought the topic up, not me.
Do you agree with this?
“Incarnational theology” appears to be a relatively recent term used primarily among organizations involved in social ministry. “Incarnational theology” is the emphasis on faith in action. Like many theological terms it can be understood correctly and incorrectly. The correct understanding is to look at the incarnation of Christ (God becoming man to save us) and to then imitate the mission of Christ, namely expressing concern for lives and souls (Mark 8:36; 1 Peter 2:21). It is the laudable translating of Christian faith into works (James 2:14ff). Incorrectly, and most commonly understood, is the hyper-emphasis on the social and charitable work of Christ without acknowledging the soul-salvation work of Christ. It is often characterized by a de-emphasis of Bible study to the veneration of acts of charity. One liberal Lutheran pastor once defended “incarnational theology” in this way: “incarnational theology that is truly that, is being done in the trenches, not in scholarly books.” One would hope that Kenneth Haugk, an ordained clergyman of the Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod, would not espouse the erroneous view of “incarnational theology.” His use of the term, however, combined with criticisms expressed about the Stephen Ministries emphasis on social work to the compromise of Gospel outreach, is cause for concern.

If not define your terms.
 
What stricks me as un excusable is when confronting Catholics with their own contradictions they still maintain their stand. Whether it be as in this case that their teaching has changed over time or as I have in the past posting pictures of obvious idol worship.
You still have not answered my questions. Got answers?
 
It is interesting how different Protestant denominations have their own individual templates they place over Scripture blocking out what they do not want to address and highlighting what they do. What is even more interesting is that individuals from these varied denominations will gladly give you their infallible interpretation of said highlighted Scripture verses and expect you to take them at their word all the while claiming that no one is infallible.

Go figure !
We should point out that the teaching of the Church is the infallible nature of the Church and not the people. It is the office of the pope that is the continuation of the “Chair of Moses” Jesus even assented to and not the Pharisees occupying it. Pointing out the wonder of the teaching is more helpful than highlighting the fallibility of the opposition. We have arrogant and sinful people in the Church but that is not what we assent to, but the teaching.
 
What stricks me as un excusable is when confronting Catholics with their own contradictions they still maintain their stand. Whether it be as in this case that their teaching has changed over time or as I have in the past posting pictures of obvious idol worship.
Some traditionalists go too far in “outside the Church”. I have highlighted some teachings that state that Jesus is the salvation of mankind and the Church leads us to the infallible belief in Him in today’s world. The teaching doesn’t change, people do and the Church presents to those people the teaching of Christ. Jesus as the incarnate God uses matter to show us God and we do the same in the use of images to convey Jesus in visible form. Scripture is not the only form God uses to teach us.
 
That is all you can come up with? I know you would never accept that from me…
Call me a bad Anti-Catholic and declare I speak out of context… wow…
An Apologist I am not, but I will defend my faith as best I can. When I do attempt to defend it is from the fallen away people who turn from the truth and do as you do. Carlan

BTW Janet it was you who used the word bad not I.
 
An Apologist I am not, but I will defend my faith as best I can. When I do attempt to defend it is from the fallen away people who turn from the truth and do as you do. Carlan

BTW Janet it was you who used the word bad not I.
Do you deny that the Catholic Church has changed her teaching on this over time?
 
You still have not answered my questions. Got answers?
Inquisition was brought up in that you attempt to ask all the questions and always twist what is said to arrive at your predetermined opinion.
 
Do you agree with this?
“Incarnational theology” appears to be a relatively recent term used primarily among organizations involved in social ministry. “Incarnational theology” is the emphasis on faith in action. Like many theological terms it can be understood correctly and incorrectly. The correct understanding is to look at the incarnation of Christ (God becoming man to save us) and to then imitate the mission of Christ, namely expressing concern for lives and souls (Mark 8:36; 1 Peter 2:21). It is the laudable translating of Christian faith into works (James 2:14ff). Incorrectly, and most commonly understood, is the hyper-emphasis on the social and charitable work of Christ without acknowledging the soul-salvation work of Christ. It is often characterized by a de-emphasis of Bible study to the veneration of acts of charity. One liberal Lutheran pastor once defended “incarnational theology” in this way: “incarnational theology that is truly that, is being done in the trenches, not in scholarly books.” One would hope that Kenneth Haugk, an ordained clergyman of the Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod, would not espouse the erroneous view of “incarnational theology.” His use of the term, however, combined with criticisms expressed about the Stephen Ministries emphasis on social work to the compromise of Gospel outreach, is cause for concern.

If not define your terms.
From the Vatican website:
Christian living therefore embraces elements both incarnational and eschatological; and our prime concern as Pastors is to ensure that there is a balance between them, that the Churches over which we preside in Christ’s name are neither too worldly nor too unworldly, that they are** “in the world but not of it”**(cf. Jn 17: 11, 15-16). Crucial here is the question of the relationship between the Church and the world, which was a fundamental theme of the Second Vatican Council and remains central to the life of the Church at the dawn of the new millennium, not least in your own country.
The answer we give to this question will determine the course we set in addressing a range of other pressing issues.
  1. As shepherds, we must lead the flock of Christ along a path which avoids the temptation either to eliminate or to exaggerate the boundaries between the Church and the world, between the Christian message and the prevalent culture of our age. Neither elimination nor exaggeration is what the Gospel intends; neither is faithful to the Council’s teaching; neither can be the way into the future which God has in mind for the Church. We need another way, and the teaching of Pope Paul VI can help us to find it. Ecclesiam suam has often been regarded as “the Encyclical of dialogue” and with good reason, because it spells out in detail what Pope Paul described as the “attitude” which the Church should adopt at this period in the history of the world (cf. ch. III), an attitude which involves both a style and a method of relating to modern society. Circumstances have certainly changed in the years since Ecclesiam suam was written, yet its teaching on the Church’s dialogue with the world remains at least as pertinent now as it was in 1964. In speaking of dialogue, Paul VI used the phrase colloquium salutis. This dialogue (colloquium) has its foundation in what St John has written, “God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life” (Jn 3:16). The Church has a priceless gift for the men and women of every time and place, which she cannot fail to offer, even when her offer is misunderstood or refused.
“What you did for the least of your brethren, you did for Me”. This is the basis for “works”, not to attempt to achieve salvation by our own efforts. “Faith without works is dead”. I am sure we agree that we cannot achieve salvation on our own but where we part is in the cooperation aspect. Jesus said that His “yoke is light, His burden easy”. A “yoke” is made for two oxen, this seems to mean that Jesus is helping us and we cooperate with Him in doing works of mercy. Anything less seems like an excuse to not attempt “works”.
 
From the Vatican website:

“What you did for the least of your brethren, you did for Me”. This is the basis for “works”, not to attempt to achieve salvation by our own efforts. “Faith without works is dead”. I am sure we agree that we cannot achieve salvation on our own but where we part is in the cooperation aspect. Jesus said that His “yoke is light, His burden easy”. A “yoke” is made for two oxen, this seems to mean that Jesus is helping us and we cooperate with Him in doing works of mercy. Anything less seems like an excuse to not attempt “works”.
If by faith we have died to self and are alive in Christ we then will live as Christ would live doing good works.
 
Define your terms!

Got answers?
No problem!

Incarnational theology and the Church.

Church - assembly, meeting, convocation. The Kingdom of God on earth governed by apostolic authority.

Jesus Christ, as is strinkingly evident on every page of the Gospel, represented Himself to the world as the founder of the kingdom of God, which in its earthly phase is ordained to gather together all men (cf. the parables of the kingdom): the people.

As rulers of the kingdom He appointed the Apostles (cf. Luke 6:13; Matthew 18:15-18; John 20:21; Matthew 28:18-19 etc.): the clergy in the people.

As head of the Apostles He constituted St. Peter (cf. Matthew 16:18-19; John 21:17): the primacy of the clergy.

With these elements our Lord instituted a real society, hierarchically constituted (with subjects and superiors), visible to the eyes of all, but with a non-political and religious end (cf. Matthew 4:3-10; 5:3-12; 6:33; 16:26,27, etc.), assigning it the functions of applying, through the centuries, the fruits of the Redemption.

From this we clearly understand that the Church is the prolongation of the Incarnate Word, His Mystical Body (Romans 12:4-16; 1 Corinthians 12:12-27; Ephesians 4:4), which actualizes in each individual as in all humanity the work of the Redemption, through the offering of the sacrifice of the Mass and the exercise of the triple ecclesiastical power - teaching, ministry, jurisdiction.

As its founder is a Person subsisting both in the human and in the divine nature, so the Church is at the same time a human and divine society; the human element visible, perceptible to the senses, consists of the multitude of men and women socially organized; the spiritual, invisible, divine element is furnished by the supernatural gifts which put the human aggregate under the influence of Christ and of the Holy Spirit, Soul and unitive Principle of the whole organism. The Church is therefore, the union of man with Christ in a social form, the social synthesis of the human and the divine.

If the Church is the union of humanity with Christ in a social, hierarchically organized form, it has to be necessarily one, since Christ is one and the human race is race; it has to be holy, because contact with Christ is sanctifying; it must be catholic, i.e., universal, since the union of humanity in Christ embraces (in tendency) all the individuals of the human species; it must be apostolic, because, since it is a union in hierarchical form, it is necessarily based on Peter and the Apostles and their successors, who constitute the hierarchy.

One, holy, catholic, apostolic: These are the four properties of the Spouse of Christ: its individual characteristics which become also marks of identification; when considered in historical reality they appear to the eyes of all as distinctive signs of the true institution of Jesus Christ.

Being human-divine, visible and invisible, the Church operates in a way corresponding to its nature: through a teaching body which transmits the divine thought in the clothing of human words; through a ministry which, by means of sensible rites, the sacraments, infuses supernatural life; through government which makes known the laws of the spirit in a form perceptible to the experience of the senses.

Since the Church is the prolongation of Christ in time and space, there is a very striking analogy between the Christological and the ecclesiological errors. Just as some erred with respect to Christ by denying His divinity (Jews, Gentiles, rationalists), His humanity (Docetae), or others by separating the two natures (Nestorians), or by absorbing one nature in the other (Monophtsites); so also with respect to the Church, some deny her divinity or divine mission in the world (Jews, pagans, rationalists), her humanity or visibility (Wyclife, Huss, Protestants), her social, external perfection hinged on the Roman Pontiff (Eastern Schismatics, Gallicans, Febronians, etc.); others separate her from the civil society (liberals).
 
Are you so proud as to actually state that yeah, what Polycarp taught and believed is all well and good for him, but not for me…Do you realize that he learned EVERYTHING from John the Apostle who learned from Jesus, himself? How can you not believe that everything Polycarp says is the truth?

Pray for humility…we all need it…Do not harden your heart. Ask for faith, please.

Scripture can be compared, so to speak with the Constitution of any country…It has been written. Who interprets it? Anybody and everybody for themselves? No, you have governing bodies in every country and legal systems which carry out the law…

Of course, Scripture can’t be equated with any body’s Constitution for it is Sacred and Holy and inspired by the Holy Spirit…it is the Word of God which we all must adhere to.
Friend,

It is a weighty thing to take responsibility for one’s spiritual life…it is truly humbling.

I do not believe the things said about Polycarp are completely factual, as some scholars can best attest to…his story is one of pious legend. I leave Polycarp’s spiritual life to Polycarp. I take responsibility for mine. I’m sure Friend Polycarp had an abiding faith which he lived out before the world. His life as recorded by others who embellished his history to give him credibility is also the subject of some scholarly works…but I leave that to them…you of course will believe as you see fit concerning the man…if “his testimony” speaks to your condition I think that is a wonderful thing. While I enjoy reading the legends and myths of those early Christians, I do not take them as fact. I will not be judged by what others believe…nor what I did or did not believe said about them, even though said by good people who beleived the legends and myths.

I do not ascribe to “sola scriptura”…scripture points to the Source of our Being…it is not the Source itself. While I look to scripture for inspiration and understanding…I also look to the Eternal Word who dwells in our presence and is among us to teach us Himself.

I would rather be judged for keeping my own counsel, than one day provide that Great Judge the excuse…“But I beleived what I read about XYZ because I was told to…” If I meet judgement at the Hands of the One who knows me best and loves me most, I will accept that…as all things which stem from the Father’s Hands is right and good. I accept the Mercy and Grace which He freely gives…with Job I echo…“Though He slay me, still will I trust Him…” I am not fearful to stand before Him…He will do what is right and just and good.
 
Do you agree with this?
“Incarnational theology” appears to be a relatively recent term used primarily among organizations involved in social ministry. “Incarnational theology” is the emphasis on faith in action. Like many theological terms it can be understood correctly and incorrectly. The correct understanding is to look at the incarnation of Christ (God becoming man to save us) and to then imitate the mission of Christ, namely expressing concern for lives and souls (Mark 8:36; 1 Peter 2:21). It is the laudable translating of Christian faith into works (James 2:14ff). Incorrectly, and most commonly understood, is the hyper-emphasis on the social and charitable work of Christ without acknowledging the soul-salvation work of Christ. It is often characterized by a de-emphasis of Bible study to the veneration of acts of charity. One liberal Lutheran pastor once defended “incarnational theology” in this way: “incarnational theology that is truly that, is being done in the trenches, not in scholarly books.” One would hope that Kenneth Haugk, an ordained clergyman of the Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod, would not espouse the erroneous view of “incarnational theology.” His use of the term, however, combined with criticisms expressed about the Stephen Ministries emphasis on social work to the compromise of Gospel outreach, is cause for concern.

If not define your terms.
:rolleyes:
 
What stricks me as un excusable is when confronting Catholics with their own contradictions they still maintain their stand. Whether it be as in this case that their teaching has changed over time or as I have in the past posting pictures of obvious idol worship.
As has been explained there is no contradiction-just your refusal to read the replies to the posts. Again when one tries to understand catholic Doctine by pulling out of context quotes from anti-catholic websites they are sure to fail.
 
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