Protestants, why?

[Nicea325]

Xian Thinker:

That’s not true. Protestants believe the Holy Spirit guides believers into ALL truth. The Holy Spirit is God. Protestants trust God because they believe God knows more than the Pope.

It is very true. Explain how the Holy Spirit teaches thousands different denominations a multitude of truths? The Holy Spirit only teaches ONE Truth,not variations of the truths or half-truths. Second, show me one official Catholic document where the Catholic Church teaches the pope knows more than God? If you cannot back it up,then you are bearing false witness and are living under a lie and profound misunderstanding.

“I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. (John 14:16-17)”

First of all,here is where many Protestants make the error. Many want to apply verses such as the above to themselves. Jesus was speaking to the twelve,not a multitude. Second, if God the Father sent the Holy Spirit to ALL believers,then why the need to found thousands of different denominations? Either God is cruel or wrong or Protestants have it wrong? Both cannot be correct.

“But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. (John 16:13, NIV)”

The 12…not to every Joe and Jane who decided to found their own church and teach something totally different than Steve and Mary’s church down the street.

 

[XianThinker]

How can the Holy Spirit guide tens of thousands of different Christian denominations into thousands of contrary teachings?

He can’t. God is not the author of confusion.

There really aren’t “tens of thousands” of denominations. There are probably less than 100 and these have similar beliefs (faith alone, Bible alone, priesthood of all believers) with the differences being over minor issues (types of music, church structure, end time beliefs, tongues, lifestyle choices, etc.) The claim of “tens of thousands” of denominations is based on counting every non-denominational church as a separate denomination consisting of one church.

Now, thanks to this Protestant paradigm we have the chaos and confusion of each of these tens of thousands of Christian denominations claiming that their interpretation of Scripture is the correct one.

That is not the fruit of the Holy Spirit, but rather the fruit of the Author of Chaos and Confusion.

Anyone can claim whatever they want. Perhaps some of these denominations are not being led by the Holy Spirit? Several people claimed to be the Messiah but we know that Jesus is the Messiah and the other claims were false.

This is bordering on contemptuous, XT. Be careful.

I want to answer your question more fully but I think it would be considered contemptuous to tell you what I was taught and what I believe. I’ll try to give you an idea without being contemptuous. When I questioned the pastor in a church I attended, I was told the pastor has the Holy Spirit so therefore everything he teaches is the truth. Therefore, if I disagreed with him it meant I was wrong and did not have the Holy Spirit. I’ll stop here because I don’t think I’m allowed to say what that says about other churches that teach something different.

 

[Contarini]

Are you saying that if you see a Christian sinning and he doesn’t listen to you then you should bring him in front of the Pope at the Vatican? If I say I’m going to church on Sunday, it’s understood that I’m referring to the local congregation. At the time it was written, there was probably only one church in the area so they probably brought the matter before the pastor or the elders in the church that both of them attended.

You make it sound as if having “only one church in the area” represented a primitive level of ecclesiastical technology which we have now transcended.

But as long as there’s “only one church in the area” then the process described in Matt. 18 works, and the dichotomy you’re trying to make between local and universal church is meaningless.

Once you have multiple competing churches, none of which has any claim to be the true church, and which are not accountable to each other, the church discipline process described here becomes meaningless.

Edwin

 

[XianThinker]

Xian Thinker:

It is very true. Explain how the Holy Spirit teaches thousands different denominations a multitude of truths?

He doesn’t.

The Holy Spirit only teaches ONE Truth,not variations of the truths or half-truths.

I agree.

Second, show me one official Catholic document where the Catholic Church teaches the pope knows more than God? If you cannot back it up,then you are bearing false witness and are living under a lie and profound misunderstanding.

Or it could mean I didn’t explain what I meant very well. What I meant is that Protestants rely on the Holy Spirit (God) to interpret the Bible. Catholics accept the Pope or Catholic Church’s interpretation. Many Protestants I know would consider this to be relying on a man rather than God which sort of implies the Pope either knows more or is more reliable than the Holy Spirit (who is God). To be more clear, I’ll state it this way: Catholics believe the Pope has the same infallible authority as the original apostles and therefore what he teaches comes from God. Protestants believe God gives the Holy Spirit to all believers and guides each individual into the correct interpretation of the Bible.

First of all,here is where many Protestants make the error. Many want to apply verses such as the above to themselves. Jesus was speaking to the twelve,not a multitude. Second, if God the Father sent the Holy Spirit to ALL believers,then why the need to found thousands of different denominations? Either God is cruel or wrong or Protestants have it wrong? Both cannot be correct.

If I remember correctly, all true believers have the Holy Spirit. I think many of the Protestant denominations (the ones that don’t agree with me) are wrong and aren’t being led by the Holy Spirit. But that doesn’t mean that all of them are wrong. See my earlier post.

 

[XianThinker]

You make it sound as if having “only one church in the area” represented a primitive level of ecclesiastical technology which we have now transcended.

But as long as there’s “only one church in the area” then the process described in Matt. 18 works, and the dichotomy you’re trying to make between local and universal church is meaningless.

Once you have multiple competing churches, none of which has any claim to be the true church, and which are not accountable to each other, the church discipline process described here becomes meaningless.

Edwin

If there are multiple churches, then you go to the one that follows the Bible.

 

[andrewstx]

The canon was compiled by the councils of Carthage and Hippo which actually became part of the Orthodox church to be precise.

At the time of Carthage and Hippo there were no seperate Catholic and Orthodox churches, all were in in same OHCAC.

 

[Prosmith]

That’s a non-sequitur, Prosmith.

The point is: you believe that a man is infallible. Multiple men, actually.

These men were infallible: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, David, Moses, Peter, Paul…

Right?

Not according to your church’s definition of infallibility.

 

[Prosmith]

At the time of Carthage and Hippo there were no seperate Catholic and Orthodox churches, all were in in same OHCAC.

exactly.

 

[Woody87]

Does anyone one this thread have a question for a protestant I would love to answer. Came late into the thread and did not see any point in reading 20 pages.

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

 

[pablope]

That’s not true. Protestants believe the Holy Spirit guides believers into ALL truth.

Then can you explain the different beliefs in the Real Presence, Baptism, Confession, Divinity of Christ, etc?

And how did this guidance of the HS result in several thousand different denominations?

And how can the Holy Spirit guide the individual different protestants and the not the CC?

How can the HS guide the protestant denoms differently from the CC?

1 Samuel 15:22-23
22 But Samuel replied:
“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the Lord?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is like the sin of divination,
and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the Lord,
he has rejected you as king.”

From that verse above…should it be the HS guides the Church and we conform ourselves to that Church? And not each individual deciding for himself what the Church should be and make it conform to what they want to believe?

 

[pablope]

He can’t. God is not the author of confusion.

There really aren’t “tens of thousands” of denominations. There are probably less than 100 and these have similar beliefs (faith alone, Bible alone, priesthood of all believers) with the differences being over minor issues (types of music, church structure, end time beliefs, tongues, lifestyle choices, etc.) The claim of “tens of thousands” of denominations is based on counting every non-denominational church as a separate denomination consisting of one church.

 

[pablope]

If there are multiple churches, then you go to the one that follows the Bible.

Well, everyone claims they follow the Bible…so which one of these Bible-believing churches will you go to?

 

[Prosmith]

How many different beliefs can there be?? Either you believe in the Real Presence or not. Baptism is highlighted in Scripture. I’m not sure how you can split those apart so many times.

And how did this guidance of the HS result in several thousand different denominations?

This is really the most over rated statement i have heard Catholics make. Can you name each denomination and define what each believes?

And how can the Holy Spirit guide the individual different protestants and the not the CC?

I can’t speak for the HS. Scripture says that we do not know where he is coming from nor where he is going.

How can the HS guide the protestant denoms differently from the CC?

Many of those differences lie in pride, interpretation and perspective. I think we share much more in common than many people care to know.

 

[Prosmith]

And on another thread someone said there are upwards of 40,000. Another poster said more than 50,000. Which is it?

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
Second, show me one official Catholic document where the Catholic Church teaches the pope knows more than God? If you cannot back it up,then you are bearing false witness and are living under a lie and profound misunderstanding.

Or it could mean I didn’t explain what I meant very well. What I meant is that Protestants rely on the Holy Spirit (God) to interpret the Bible.

And what makes you believe the CC has taught something different? Remember…Protestants arrived centuries later and the CC had the Bible before any Protestant.

Catholics accept the Pope or Catholic Church’s interpretation.

And apparently you are not reading your Bible with an open mind. Jesus promised to guide His Church into all Truth. Never said anything about the Bible-only. Did Jesus found His Church or said everyone will own and read the Bible and interpret it without error. What does the Bible say about it?

Many Protestants I know would consider this to be relying on a man rather than God which sort of implies the Pope either knows more or is more reliable than the Holy Spirit (who is God).

Then it is a classic case of ignorance as to what the CC truly teaches. Many Protestants merely assume what they believe the CC teaches without ever opening an authentic Catholic document.

To be more clear, I’ll state it this way: Catholics believe the Pope has the same infallible authority as the original apostles

Profound misunderstanding…again! The pope is infallible in matters of faith and morals. You confuse impeccability with infallibility. And the Apostles were always infallible?

and therefore what he teaches comes from God. Protestants believe God gives the Holy Spirit to all believers and guides each individual into the correct interpretation of the Bible.

And to whom did God send the Holy Spirit to explain and defend the Trinitarian doctrine? The Bible or His Church? God uses humans as His instruments to proclaim and defend His Truth. God is the (surgeon) and His bishops are His (surgical ) instruments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
First of all,here is where many Protestants make the error. Many want to apply verses such as the above to themselves. Jesus was speaking to the twelve,not a multitude. Second, if God the Father sent the Holy Spirit to ALL believers,then why the need to found thousands of different denominations? Either God is cruel or wrong or Protestants have it wrong? Both cannot be correct.

If I remember correctly, all true believers have the Holy Spirit. I think many of the Protestant denominations (the ones that don’t agree with me) are wrong and aren’t being led by the Holy Spirit. But that doesn’t mean that all of them are wrong. See my earlier post.

Conflicting claim. You said Protestants believe ALL believers are guided by the Holy Spirit. However,but the ones that disagree with you are wrong? What makes you believe your beliefs and interpretations are infallible? So it means either you are wrong and they are correct or your ALL wrong?

 

[Nicea325]

Does it matter? None were founded by Jesus or the twelve.

 

[PRmerger]

Not according to your church’s definition of infallibility.

So, Prosmith, are you of the opinion, then, that Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter and Paul wrote some errors into their inspired texts?

Yes, or no?

That is a fairly straightforward question that requires a pretty simple response.

Yes–they made errors in what they wrote?
Or no, there were no errors.

Which is your belief?

 

[pablope]

How many different beliefs can there be??

I have lost count.

Either you believe in the Real Presence or not.

There are those who do and who don’t…and a variation/s of those who do not. That is the point…within protestants…there those who do and do not.

Baptism is highlighted in Scripture. I’m not sure how you can split those apart so many times.

There are those of the immersion only, different teachings of and about baptism, rebaptism, …the oneness pentecostals…and I have lost count of how the other variations…

This is really the most over rated statement i have heard Catholics make. Can you name each denomination and define what each believes?

We tried several months ago in a thread…and just gave up…each one group…would spawn sub groups (who split from that one group)…and the splitting of the sub group…and so forth.

Many of those differences lie in pride, interpretation and perspective. I think we share much more in common than many people care to know.

Let me paraphrase a response from Karl Keating on the same variation of this question: That is because those who wish only the discuss the essentials are putting aside the other aspects of the original Christianity they do not agree with…the whole of Christianity, prior to the Reformation…had the pope, the bishops, the priests, apostolic succession…Marian beliefs, devotions, praying for the dead, intercession of saints…etc.

 

[pablope]

I said over 20,000…with the ever splitting…can you find a way to nail down the count?

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
And how did this guidance of the HS result in several thousand different denominations?

Prosmith:
This is really the most over rated statement i have heard Catholics make. Can you name each denomination and define what each believes?

Overrated? More like under-rated by Protestants. And can you name each denomination and define what each has in common? If they are all in accord,then again it begs the question:

Why the need to start an entire new church or sect? Where the Apostles opening their own independent church with variations of the Truth?