Protestants, why?

[pablope]

If all us so called protestants need to learn the “essentials” from the R.Catholic church then when us protestants read comments from an early pope St. Clement who made this startling statement about the Phoenix, a mythical bird used in pagan myth to promote as a symbol the resurrection of Jesus

ewtn.com/library/patristc/anf1-1.htm

One has to question their intent and study further before joining such organization

Peter says that when we are to proclaim the gospel “we have not followed cunningly devised fables” (2Pet. 1:16).

So…where is it in the Bible that it is prohibited to use symbols to teach…to relate something easily understood by one’s audience? Is it prohibited to use visual aids in teaching?

By using the phoenix for a teaching tool…does that make pope Clement less of a Christian than you?

 

[XianThinker]

Fair enough.

So if you could offer what these essentials are, the Bible verses that support this, and…

here’s the important part…

the verses that tell you that it’s an essential.

I have asked this question on the CAFs many, many times of different non-Catholic Christians, and each time I get a list of Bible verses that this poster believes are essential verses…

but no one has ever offered verses which tell us how they know that it’s an essential verse.

So, for example, someone might say, “John 3:16 is an essential doctrine”…but can’t offer a verse that tells them that John 3:16 is essential and not secondary.

If you could do that, I would be impressed!

“Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. (Heb 6:1-2, NIV)”

 

[XianThinker]

Ok.

So I hope you will allow Catholics this same paradigm.

Do you object to our saying, “It doesn’t matter that the Bible doesn’t explicitly list the Assumption of Mary and her Immaculate Conception, or purgatory, because I think it is obvious to anyone who reads the Bible with the desire to learn the truth”?

We believe that it’s obvious

Just like you believe that these “essentials” are obvious. (Except, peculiarly, no Christians here can agree on what these essentials are. Believe me–I’ve asked this and no one offers the same verses. Ever.)

How many verse are about faith in Jesus? How many are about Mary? If something is more important, writers will mention it more often. Why should the Bible be any different?

Do you really think Mary’s sinlessness or her ascension into Heaven is just as clear and obvious as the Bible’s teaching that believing in Jesus is required for salvation?

But what verses deal with salvation? Don’t they essentially ALL deal with our salvation? Is there one verse that we can dismiss as secondary?

And how do you know that this one can be regarded as not as important?

Don’t you think verses that tell us what we need to do to get to Heaven are more important than other verses? Can you honestly say that the verse “Mary was the mother of Jesus (Matt 1:16)” is just as important as “If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Romans 10:9)?” You can get to Heaven without knowing the name of Jesus’ mother but you can’t get saved without faith in Jesus.

I don’t believe that verse says what you think it says, XT.

It doesn’t say that worshipping on a different day is a secondary belief.

Not at all.

The verse says it doesn’t make any difference whether we consider one day more important than another or whether we consider every day equal. What do you think it says?

Do you really think a person’s decision to eat meat or observe a religious festival is just as important as believing in God? If faith is more important than observing observing sacred days, then doesn’t that mean that faith in God is more important and observing sacred days is a less important, secondary belief?

 

[PRmerger]

“Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. (Heb 6:1-2, NIV)”

Amen!

But are you saying that belief in One God is not an essential?



That’s certainly not mentioned by the inspired writer.

 

[PRmerger]

“Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. (Heb 6:1-2, NIV)”

And what about belief in the Incarnation?

That’s not mentioned by the inspired writer either.

You don’t believe that is an essential to salvation?

 

[PRmerger]

“Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. (Heb 6:1-2, NIV)”

And this verse mentions nothing at all about God being the Creator of Heaven and Earth.

Do you not believe this is an essential to salvation?

Can one be saved if he believes that the heavens and the earth appeared by an atheistic evolutionary process?

 

[PRmerger]

How many verse are about faith in Jesus? How many are about Mary? If something is more important, writers will mention it more often. Why should the Bible be any different?

Bible verse for this man-made tradition, please!

 

[XianThinker]

Amen!

But are you saying that belief in One God is not an essential?



That’s certainly not mentioned by the inspired writer.

Belief in one God, the incarnation, and God being the creator are all part of faith in God.

 

[CopticChristian]

How many verse are about faith in Jesus? How many are about Mary?** If something is more important, writers will mention it more often. **Why should the Bible be any different?

Do you really think Mary’s sinlessness or her ascension into Heaven is just as clear and obvious as the Bible’s teaching that believing in Jesus is required for salvation?

Don’t you think verses that tell us what we need to do to get to Heaven are more important than other verses? Can you honestly say that the verse “Mary was the mother of Jesus (Matt 1:16)” is just as important as "If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Romans 10:9)?" You can get to Heaven without knowing the name of Jesus’ mother but you can’t get saved without faith in Jesus.

The verse says it doesn’t make any difference whether we consider one day more important than another or whether we consider every day equal. What do you think it says?

Do you really think a person’s decision to eat meat or observe a religious festival is just as important as believing in God? If faith is more important than observing observing sacred days, then doesn’t that mean that faith in God is more important and observing sacred days is a less important, secondary belief?

Xian,

I hope Merge forgives me for jumping in here. Praise you for pointing out that Romans 10:9 is mentioned only once and as you say if it was important it would have been mentioned elsewhere and it is not. In fact the notion that this has to do with salvation is not relevant to the discussion Paul is having with the Christians in Rome…

9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Paul is quoting Moses to the Judaizing Christians, saying, you didn’t listen then, you are not listening now and you don’t have to enter into the Old Covenant to be Christian. Also notice that why would he be writing a mode of salvation to a Roman Christian community that is already “saved”…

8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world. 9For God, whom I serve in my spirit in the preaching of the gospel of His Son, is my witness as to how unceasingly I make mention of you, 10always in my prayers making request, if perhaps now at last by the will of God I may succeed in coming to you. 11For I long to see you so that I may impart some spiritual gift to you, that you may be established; 12that is, that I may be encouraged together with you while among you, each of us by the other’s faith, both yours and mine.

In the beginning of the letter Paul points out that they have mutual Faith and therefore to interpose well along in the writing the notion that this is how you get “saved” is ludicrours and as you point out it would have been mentioned by Paul elsewhere and he never ever says this again.

Good point.

 

[XianThinker]

Bible verse for this man-made tradition, please!

You don’t need a verse for everything. Some things can be determined based on logic.

Can a person get to Heaven without faith in Jesus? No.
Can a person get to Heaven without believing in the Immaculate Conception of Mary? Yes.

Therefore, faith is more important than beliefs about Mary.

 

[CopticChristian]

You don’t need a verse for everything. Some things can be determined based on logic.

Can a person get to Heaven without faith in Jesus? No.
Can a person get to Heaven without believing in the Immaculate Conception of Mary? Yes.

Therefore, faith is more important than beliefs about Mary.

Xian,

Wow, you are a solid thinker. I am always open for learning. Outline for me how someone should be taught that they can get to heaven. Once you do that is it possible that they may lose that ability to get to heaven. Thank you…

 

[joe370]

XianThinker;9656489]

I disagree. I think the Bible clearly states what is important and what isn’t. Even if it didn’t, it wouldn’t matter because the Bible doesn’t need to list what is important or essential because I think it is obvious to anyone who reads the Bible with the desire to learn the truth.

XianThinker, I ask respectfully:

If the Holy Bible clearly states what is important or essential, and therefore is obvious then why has the practice of scripture alone led to so much ecclesial division?

 

[XianThinker]

Xian,

Wow, you are a solid thinker. I am always open for learning. Outline for me how someone should be taught that they can get to heaven. Once you do that is it possible that they may lose that ability to get to heaven. Thank you…

I agree with the first sermon in the early church taught by Peter in Acts 2. A person must believe in Jesus, repent of his sins, and get baptized. I think a person needs to remain faithful until the end to get to Heaven.

“Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off —for all whom the Lord our God will call.” (Acts 2:38-39)”

“he who stands firm to the end will be saved (Matt 24:13)”

“We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. (Heb 3:14)”

 

[enickman]

You don’t need a verse for everything. Some things can be determined based on logic.

Can a person get to Heaven without faith in Jesus? No.
Can a person get to Heaven without believing in the Immaculate Conception of Mary? Yes.

Therefore, faith is more important than beliefs about Mary.

Actually, yes they can. If they are completely ignorant of Jesus while on earth or grow in a religion that shuts Jesus out, it is still possible for them to reach salvation. After all, God knows the heart of every human being. We aren’t authorized to judge anyone’s fate after death. A problem I had as an atheist was “Christians” telling all of us we were doomed for hell. I made the mistake that the Catholic Church did that as well, but found later it was those communities that call themselves Christian that tarnished the one, true Church. Thank God I found it.

Also, belief in Mary is essential. How can one believe in the Son and discard the Mother? Many don’t realize that the idea of Mary’s unimportance is fairly new (last few hundred years). It holds no weight. I firmly believe that others discard her importance because we bring it to light. If the Church discarded her importance, I feel like those in opposition would bring it to light. I think some “denominations” try their absolute best not to be anything like the true Church, even if their arguments hold no weight whatsoever.

 

[XianThinker]

XianThinker, I ask respectfully:

If the Holy Bible clearly states what is important or essential, and therefore is obvious then why has the practice of scripture alone led to so much ecclesiastical division?

I think it has a lot to do with people believing what they want to believe and not really caring about what the Bible teaches. Many people form their beliefs first based on what they think feels right and then search the scriptures to find verses to fit what they want to believe.

I read the church fathers because I think the people who heard the apostles speak or were taught by those who heard the apostles speak probably understood their teaching better than someone who just read their writings 2,000 years later. Most people I’ve talked to don’t care about the church fathers and would rather form their beliefs based on emotion and what feels right.

Unbelief and being insincere is another reason the Bible can be hard to understand. “The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14)”

 

[enickman]

I agree with the first sermon in the early church taught by Peter in Acts 2. A person must believe in Jesus, repent of his sins, and get baptized. I think a person needs to remain faithful until the end to get to Heaven.

“Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off —for all whom the Lord our God will call.” (Acts 2:38-39)”

“he who stands firm to the end will be saved (Matt 24:13)”

“We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. (Heb 3:14)”

And to stand firm til the end sounds a lot like salvation being a process and not a once in your life time thing. It sounds like it requires some response or work on our part.

How does one stand firm in Christ? I think standing firm in Him would require our obedience to the Church He established. Which Church, if not the Catholic Church, did Christ establish? Please don’t tell me you think He established all forms of Christianity, which have so many disagreements etc. Christ preached being one body, and His Church is that one body. He compared our faith to a body. If one breaks from that body, it will die. Just like if a finger said to the hand, I no longer need you, it breaks and dies. I can’t remember the book or verse for that, if someone could help. So in reference to essential and non essential, it sounds like Jesus said it is all essential.

 

[XianThinker]

Actually, yes they can. If they are completely ignorant of Jesus while on earth or grow in a religion that shuts Jesus out, it is still possible for them to reach salvation. After all, God knows the heart of every human being. We aren’t authorized to judge anyone’s fate after death. A problem I had as an atheist was “Christians” telling all of us we were doomed for hell. I made the mistake that the Catholic Church did that as well, but found later it was those communities that call themselves Christian that tarnished the one, true Church. Thank God I found it.

Also, belief in Mary is essential. How can one believe in the Son and discard the Mother? Many don’t realize that the idea of Mary’s unimportance is fairly new (last few hundred years). It holds no weight. I firmly believe that others discard her importance because we bring it to light. If the Church discarded her importance, I feel like those in opposition would bring it to light. I think some “denominations” try their absolute best not to be anything like the true Church, even if their arguments hold no weight whatsoever.

I also believe God can make exceptions for those who have never heard the gospel or had an opportunity to learn about it. I’m glad you decided to become a Christian. I think the Catholic Church teaches that the exception only applies to “invincible ignorance” so once someone hears the gospel, they are required to evaluate it further and accept it once God reveals that it is the truth.

I’ve read the early church fathers and there is almost nothing about Mary. They discussed whether Jesus’ brothers were his cousins or sons of Joseph from a prior marriage which would support the perpetual virginity of Mary, but so far I haven’t read anything about the Immaculate Conception or the Bodily Assumption. I don’t think the Bodily Assumption became an official catholic teaching until 1950. I’d bet the majority of Catholics who lived and died before 1950 didn’t believe it. None of the church fathers I’ve read so far teach that belief in the Bodily Assumption is required for salvation.

 

[joe370]

XianThinker;9657373]I think it has a lot to do with people believing what they want to believe and not really caring about what the Bible teaches. Many people form their beliefs first based on what they think feels right and then search the scriptures to find verses to fit what they want to believe.

That was the conclusion that I came to as a former non-catholic, leading me to believe that Jesus would have anticipated such behavior and perhaps made certain accommodations to offset said behavior in the event that they actually occured.

I read the church fathers because I think the people who heard the apostles speak or were taught by those who heard the apostles speak probably understood their teaching better than someone who just read their writings 2,000 years later.

And yet, like you mentioned, sola scriptura advocates (like myself long ago) read the ECFs and believe what they want to believe…

Most people I’ve talked to don’t care about the church fathers and would rather form their beliefs based on emotion and what feels right.

My sister.

Unbelief and being insincere is another reason the Bible can be hard to understand. “The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14)”

 

[joe370]

XianThinker;9657431]I also believe God can make exceptions for those who have never heard the gospel or had an opportunity to learn about it

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

 

[joe370]

enickman;9657372]

Also, belief in Mary is essential. How can one believe in the Son and discard the Mother?

Good question.

Many don’t realize that the idea of Mary’s unimportance is fairly new (last few hundred years). It holds no weight.

Even Martin Luther believed in Mary’s perpetual virginity and IC…

I firmly believe that others discard her importance because we bring it to light. If the Church discarded her importance, I feel like those in opposition would bring it to light.

I think some “denominations” try their absolute best not to be anything like the true Church, even if their arguments hold no weight whatsoever.

I said the same thing to my mother (almost verbatim) a couple weeks ago.