Protestants, why?

[XianThinker]

And to stand firm til the end sounds a lot like salvation being a process and not a once in your life time thing. It sounds like it requires some response or work on our part.

How does one stand firm in Christ? I think standing firm in Him would require our obedience to the Church He established. Which Church, if not the Catholic Church, did Christ establish? Please don’t tell me you think He established all forms of Christianity, which have so many disagreements etc. Christ preached being one body, and His Church is that one body. He compared our faith to a body. If one breaks from that body, it will die. Just like if a finger said to the hand, I no longer need you, it breaks and dies. I can’t remember the book or verse for that, if someone could help. So in reference to essential and non essential, it sounds like Jesus said it is all essential.

I think one needs to maintain their faith or confidence until their death. I think obedience is part of faith.

What Church did Jesus establish? I’m still studying but I agree that Christians are one body and share the same faith. "the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although scattered throughout the whole world, yet, as if occupying but one house, carefully preserves it… the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 1, Ch. 10, AD 180)” The question I have to answer is whether the Catholic Churches mentioned by Irenaeus changed their beliefs. I was taught that Constantine and others changed the church structure and some beliefs such as giving the Pope authority over other churches, teaching new doctrines, and kicking those who disagreed out of the church. Many Protestants I know agree that Christ established the Catholic Church but not later beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church. I think the point of the Reformation was to get rid of alleged later additions to the faith and return to the faith taught by Jesus.

 

[enickman]

I also believe God can make exceptions for those who have never heard the gospel or had an opportunity to learn about it. I’m glad you decided to become a Christian. I think the Catholic Church teaches that the exception only applies to “invincible ignorance” so once someone hears the gospel, they are required to evaluate it further and accept it once God reveals that it is the truth.

I’ve read the early church fathers and there is almost nothing about Mary. They discussed whether Jesus’ brothers were his cousins or sons of Joseph from a prior marriage which would support the perpetual virginity of Mary, but so far I haven’t read anything about the Immaculate Conception or the Bodily Assumption. I don’t think the Bodily Assumption became an official catholic teaching until 1950. I’d bet the majority of Catholics who lived and died before 1950 didn’t believe it. None of the church fathers I’ve read so far teach that belief in the Bodily Assumption is required for salvation.

1950 is when it was declared dogmatic, not when it was starting to be taught.

As far as your reading of the Church fathers, her is a list of times they’ve mentioned her. There are more.

Justin Martyr
[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course that was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied, “Be it done unto me according to your word” (Luke 1:38) (Dialogue with Trypho 100 [A.D. 155]).

Irenaeus
Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, “Behold, 0 Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.” Eve . . . who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband — for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children . . . having become disobedient [sin], was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient [no sin], was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).

Origen

This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one (Homily 1 [A.D. 244]).

Hippolytus

He [Jesus] was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle [Mary] was exempt from defilement and corruption (Orat. In Illud, Dominus pascit me, in Gallandi, Bibl. Patrum, II, 496 ante [A.D. 235]).
Ephraim the Syrian

You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is neither blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these? (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A. D. 361]).

Ambrose of Milan

Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin (Commentary on Psalm 118:22-30 [A.D. 387]).

Gregory Nazianzen

He was conceived by the virgin, who had been first purified by the Spirit in soul and body; for, as it was fitting that childbearing should receive its share of honor, so it was necessary that virginity should receive even greater honor (Sermon 38 [d. A.D. 390]).

Augustine

We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honor to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin (Nature and Grace 36:42 [A.D. 415]).

Theodotus of Ancrya

A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns (Homily 6:11[ante A.D. 446]).

Proclus of Constantinople

As He formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain (Homily 1[ante A.D. 446]).

Jacob of Sarug

[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary[ante A.D. 521].

Romanos the Melodist

Then the tribes of Israel heard that Anna had conceived the immaculate one. So everyone took part in the rejoicing. Joachim gave a banquet, and great was the merriment in the garden. He invited the priests and Levites to prayer; then he called Mary into the center of the crowd, that she might be magnified (On the Birth of Mary 1 [d. ca A.D. 560]).

 

[joe370]

The question I have to answer is whether the Catholic Churches mentioned by Irenaeus changed their beliefs. I was taught that Constantine and others changed the church structure and some beliefs such as giving the Pope authority over other churches, teaching new doctrines, and kicking those who disagreed out of the church. Many Protestants I know agree that Christ established the Catholic Church but not later beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church. I think the point of the Reformation was to get rid of alleged later additions to the faith and return to the faith taught by Jesus.

Let’s assume the answer to your question is yes for the moment, and the 4th century CC mentioned by Irenaeus changed the beliefs handed down to Irenaues from the apostles.

That means, either Jesus failed to guide His church, thereby failing to preserve doctrinal truth, or, Jesus adopted another group of people (new church) in the 4th century and continued to guide that 4th century church into all truth. Of course, other than heretical movements, I cannot identify any new churches traversing the centuries alongside the catholic church, from the 4th century AD to the great east - west schism, other than certain non-Chalcedonian sects that broke away in the 5th century.

It seems more tenable and scriptural to believe that Jesus preserved (continues to preserve) doctrinal truth within the one church He founded circa AD 33.

Your thoughts friend?

 

[XianThinker]

Let’s assume the answer to your question is yes for the moment, and the 4th century CC mentioned by Irenaeus changed the beliefs handed down to Irenaues from the apostles.

That means, either Jesus failed to guide His church, thereby failing to preserve doctrinal truth, or, Jesus adopted another group of people (new church) in the 4th century and continued to guide that 4th century church into all truth. Of course, other than heretical movements, I cannot identify any new churches traversing the centuries alongside the catholic church, from the 4th century AD to the great east - west schism, other than certain non-Chalcedonian sects that broke away in the 5th century.

It seems more tenable and scriptural to believe that Jesus preserved (continues to preserve) doctrinal truth within the one church He founded circa AD 33.

Your thoughts friend?

What I’m wondering is maybe some churches changes their beliefs and are now the Roman Catholic Church but other churches remained faithful and continued teaching the apostolic faith. I haven’t studied the Orthodox churches yet, but the little bit I read seems to indicate their churches started with the apostles. That would mean some churches left the true faith to follow Rome while the other Catholic Churches remained faithful and are now called Orthodox. There are also Protestant churches that claim Jesus established their denomination but their numbers dwindled from Constantine until the Reformation and are now growing again.

 

[XianThinker]

1950 is when it was declared dogmatic, not when it was starting to be taught.

As far as your reading of the Church fathers, her is a list of times they’ve mentioned her. There are more.

Justin Martyr
[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course that was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied, “Be it done unto me according to your word” (Luke 1:38) (Dialogue with Trypho 100 [A.D. 155]).

Irenaeus
Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, “Behold, 0 Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.” Eve . . . who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband — for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children . . . having become disobedient [sin], was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient [no sin], was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).

Origen

This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one (Homily 1 [A.D. 244]).

Hippolytus

He [Jesus] was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle [Mary] was exempt from defilement and corruption (Orat. In Illud, Dominus pascit me, in Gallandi, Bibl. Patrum, II, 496 ante [A.D. 235]).
Ephraim the Syrian

I prefer to limit myself to ECFs writing before Constantine to be safe from interference from the Roman Empire.

Justin Martyr - “Eve, a virgin and undefiled” I’m not sure that undefiled means she never sinned. When I read it I thought it meant she hasn’t slept with a man.

Irenaeus - “being obedient [no sin]” - couldn’t obedience refer simply to her remaining a virgin and agreeing to give birth to Jesus?

Origen - “immaculate of the immaculate” - I’m not sure if this means she was sinless, but if so, how do I know this wasn’t just Origen’s opinion instead of a tradition taught by the apostles? I’d say it’s probably just his opinion because Origen writes in the preface of Origen de Principiis " The particular points clearly delivered in the teaching of the apostles are as follows…" and then lists many beliefs taught by the apostles but nothing about the Immaculate Conception of Mary. I know Origen was very creative in his interpretation of scripture and admitted his beliefs were just his opinion.

Hippolytus - “exempt from defilement and corruption” Okay, that seems clear, but how do I know this wasn’t his private interpretation of scripture? I’d like to see evidence this belief was taught by the apostles and preached in the church.

 

[Publisher]

Let’s assume the answer to your question is yes for the moment, and the 4th century CC mentioned by Irenaeus changed the beliefs handed down to Irenaues from the apostles.

That means, either Jesus failed to guide His church, thereby failing to preserve doctrinal truth, or, Jesus adopted another group of people (new church) in the 4th century and continued to guide that 4th century church into all truth. Of course, other than heretical movements, I cannot identify any new churches traversing the centuries alongside the catholic church, from the 4th century AD to the great east - west schism, other than certain non-Chalcedonian sects that broke away in the 5th century.

It seems more tenable and scriptural to believe that Jesus preserved (continues to preserve) doctrinal truth within the one church He founded circa AD 33.

Your thoughts friend?

Which one did he found…the “Orthodox”, or the “Catholic”…the differences are significant IMO…at least as significant between Protestant groups…but Catholics seem embrace a “two-lung” belief.

 

[houseofsaul]

What do you think of the movement within the Catholic Church for the ordination of women?

The movement can continue and the Church will continue to deny it. Praise God!

 

[PRmerger]

Belief in one God, the incarnation, and God being the creator are all part of faith in God.

Your list of essentials “that you can know from the Bible” are actually not found in the Bible, but rather in your own determination of what’s “part of faith in God.”

Otherwise, Catholics could surely say that belief in the Assumption of Mary is part of faith in God. As is belief in the Trinity. And in purgatory.

Again, we are left with, not what the Bible says, but what a fallible man (XT) says.

 

[PRmerger]

Xian,

I hope Merge forgives me for jumping in here.

Of course PRmerger is happy to have you “jumping in”. :tiphat:

Praise you for pointing out that Romans 10:9 is mentioned only once and as you say if it was important it would have been mentioned elsewhere and it is not.

Heh. I didn’t notice that until you pointed this out.

What say you, XT? That concept in Romans 10:9 is only mentioned once in Scripture. Are we to assume, then, that it’s of lesser importance than another concept?

Did you know how many times St. Paul mentions that Jesus was born of a virgin?

Answer: NEVER.

Do you think, then, that this is a secondary concept since St. Paul did not deem it important enough to write about in the sacred text?

 

[PRmerger]

Which one did he found…the “Orthodox”, or the “Catholic”…the differences are significant IMO…at least as significant between Protestant groups…but Catholics seem embrace a “two-lung” belief.

Could you list the “significant” differences between the doctrines of the Orthodox and the CC, Publisher?

 

[PRmerger]

Justin Martyr - “Eve, a virgin and undefiled” I’m not sure that undefiled means she never sinned. When I read it I thought it meant she hasn’t slept with a man.

I hope you’re not proposing that a woman is defiled because she has had relations with her husband!

Is that what your church teaches?

For that’s certainly not what the CC proclaims. We proclaim that sex is holy. No one is defiled by engaging in the One Flesh Union with her spouse.

We are defiled by sin, not by relations with a man, XT.

 

[houseofsaul]

It is merely a demonstration that the mere fact of the Top Twelve being men can be explained by reasons other than it being divinely required for them to be so: men were more effective as preachers, and as missionaries, because of the way in which the society operated. Since the phenomenon of the all-male Top Twelve could be caused by reasons other than a gender-specific fiat alone, we cannot logically claim that the all-male Top Twelve is proof of such a fiat.

1 Timothy 2:11-13

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

1 Timothy 3:1-3

3 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

1 Timothy 3:11-13

11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Titus 1:5-7

5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

This is why a woman cannot be a priest, reverend, etc.

As to not start another debate:

bishop ˈbɪʃəp]
n

1. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) (in the Roman Catholic, Anglican, and Greek Orthodox Churches) a clergyman having spiritual and administrative powers over a diocese or province of the Church See also suffragan Related adjective episcopal
2. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) (in some Protestant Churches) a spiritual overseer of a local church or a number of churches

 

[PRmerger]

You don’t need a verse for everything. Some things can be determined based on logic.

Fair enough.

And does not logic dictate the existence of purgatory?

If one dies with even a smudge o’ dirt on his soul, do you think that it’s logical to believe that there’s a “mud room” before the throne of heaven for which the atoning blood of Christ cleans you up?

Sounds logical to me.

Now, are you going to deny Catholics the right to this logical conclusion?

 

[joe370]

What I’m wondering is maybe some churches changes their beliefs and are now the Roman Catholic Church but other churches remained faithful and continued teaching the apostolic faith. I haven’t studied the Orthodox churches yet, but the little bit I read seems to indicate their churches started with the apostles. That would mean some churches left the true faith to follow Rome while the other Catholic Churches remained faithful and are now called Orthodox. There are also Protestant churches that claim Jesus established their denomination but their numbers dwindled from Constantine until the Reformation and are now growing again.

So you are leaning toward the eastern orthodox churches? Well, like the catholic church, they can certainly trace their lineage back to the apostolic age. As far as certain protestant churches validly claiming that Jesus established their denomination, I would have to strongly disagree with them, unless they can provide proof. I certainly could not as a former non-catholic.

 

[joe370]

Which one did he found…the “Orthodox”, or the “Catholic”…the differences are significant IMO…at least as significant between Protestant groups…but Catholics seem embrace a “two-lung” belief.

With the hopes of reunification. That would be so awesome.

 

[stewstew03]

Does anyone one this thread have a question for a protestant I would love to answer. Came late into the thread and did not see any point in reading 20 pages.

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

Why do we need to make accommodations for your laziness…?

 

[pablope]

You don’t need a verse for everything. Some things can be determined based on logic.

Can a person get to Heaven without faith in Jesus? No.
Can a person get to Heaven without believing in the Immaculate Conception of Mary? Yes.

Therefore, faith is more important than beliefs about Mary.

Hi, Xian…just a question for you to consider and ponder, as from you response above, it looks like you are deciding what is needed for salvation and what is not. So let me ask:

Who determines what is necessary for salvation? The Church or a Church or the individual?

 

[stewstew03]

Could you list the “significant” differences between the doctrines of the Orthodox and the CC, Publisher?

 

[joe370]

Does anyone one this thread have a question for a protestant I would love to answer. Came late into the thread and did not see any point in reading 20 pages.

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

I guess I would ask why protestants hold to the practice of scripture alone considering the fact that that practice is found nowhere in sacred scripture? I searched and searched as a former protestant, to no avail. 2 Timothy 3 simply tells us that all (not only) scripture is inspired…and of course it is.

 

[Porknpie]

What do you think of the movement within the Catholic Church for the ordination of women?

The movement can continue and the Church will continue to deny it. Praise God!

There already is an active post on this subject under apologetics / sacred scripture.