Protestants, why?

[stewstew03]

…yes, they teach infant baptism, but in substance it is little different from the baby dedications of the baptists and yes, they teach a real presence, but it is little different from the presence of Christ where two or more are gathered (and they know that a real bodily presence can’t be established by either scripture or early tradition)…let me know when your version speaks for all Lutherans

It seems you are impugning Lutherans and baptists for practicing “acts of righteousness” before men, in an effort to be seen by them (i.e., in vain).

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 6:1[/BIBLEDRB]

:bible1:

 

[JustaServant]

my wife is Lutheran…yes, they teach infant baptism, but in substance it is little different from the baby dedications of the baptists…

Wow, just wow.
I spent almost two decades among Baptists.
How you could have typed that with a straight face is beyond me.

 

[Porknpie]

I’m guessing Radical meant it as an insult. When you fail on substance, resort to ad hominem…!

Stew -

I like being conservative. I typically open the door for my wife, I don’t carry much debt and buy American whenever I can. Plus, I have an American flag on a pole in the front of my house.

Love my wife + financial prudence + love this country = conservative.

 

[MatthewMark]

You see unity??? haha… i can’t help but laugh, im sorry… i could almost be certain, that before any reformation most Catholics (christians) were true and practising Christians. The PROTESTant reformation and the subsequent reformations and splits only encouraged people to protest against their faith (whatever it would have been) and ultimately cause confusion and down the road to atheism…

the flip side is, that the reformation encouraged people to interpret the bible using their own skills (no matter how limited they were) and leading into the establishment of over 33,000 denominations… which ultimately is the results of the deliberate twisting of God’s commandment. PERIOD. God would want his word to remain eternal… Jesus was the final covenant with the UNIVSERAL world which was to remain unchanged until the end of time.

Anyway, as much as i can say on this topic, i will leave it to your willingness to open your heart to the Holy Spirit… God bless brothers

Well, I’ve already explained why there is unity. Christ is the center of each true Christian church. I don’t believe there are “33,000” true Christian denominations, but what does it matter? There could be 133,000 denominations and they would each be valid if Jesus was at the center of each one. Where you place trust and faith in a religion, I place trust and faith in Jesus Christ. Christ’s direction is infallible whereas religion can be man-directed. This is the inconsistency Luther encountered.

Let me quote this passage from Luther the Reformer (Kittelson):

Luther pointed out that by working with Erasmus’s edition of the Greek New Testament, he had discovered that…the common confessional practice had no basis in the Scriptures. The Latin translation of Jesus’ command at Matthew 4:17 read, “Do penance, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” But the Greek said, “Be penitent…” Therefore, God demanded not outward deeds but a changed heart and mind. “Doing” had literally nothing to do with salvation, particularly with regard to indulgences. “To repent” and “to do penance” were two different things."
From indulgences, Luther moved to a general critique of confession, pennance, and outward workds of any kind. In particular, he focused on the absolution that came from a priest after confession. He concluded that a priest could declare forgiveness in Christ, but had no authority to absolve. “Christ did not intend [by the power of the keys] to put the salvation of people into the hands or at the discretion of an individual.” Instead, everything depended on “believing only in the truth of Christ’s promise.”

All Protestant churches that are truly Christian follow this principle. Likewise, Jesus’ teachings are central to all true Christian churches. There is no deviation in this between “33,000” denominations. Anyone is free to protest against their faith because God offers a free gift of salvation through Christ. You may either accept God’s gift of love or reject it because God has created us all with free will. Just as all people are not the same, so Christian religions are all not the same. They have reached many more people because of this. If there were no alternatives to Catholicism, far more people may have chosen not to accept the gift at all. This is not a critique of the CC. It is simply a recognition that not all people are persuaded to think and act in the same way. Catholicism fits you but it does not fit me. But that doesn’t separate me from God’s love. Praise God!! What a truly amazing God he is!

 

[MatthewMark]

well, MM apparently there is this profoundly terrible disunity that exists between you and I (instigated by none other than Satan himself) and if we met in a dark alley we would (no doubt) be at each other’s throats. It sure is a good thing that these good Catholics bothered to inform me…otherwise I would have been inclined to shake your hand and offer to buy you a coffee.

I appreciate your good humor! Thanks!

 

[MatthewMark]

:bigyikes:

I’m sorry, but the bolded is ridiculous.

EDIT: Let me know when the baptists and independents teach infant baptism, regenerative baptism, the real presence in the Lord’s Supper, that one can choose to reject justification, the value of confession and Holy Absolution.

It is far more than presentation.

Jon

Jon–I was speaking about Protestant churches. The assertion was made that thousands of Protestant denominations have numerously different doctrine. My point is, they all have Christ at the center and the only difference is in the presentation. I wasn’t including the Catholic Church. Hope that clears things up.

 

[MatthewMark]

I do think that the Author of Chaos and Confusion is very very pleased with the chaos and confusion that has arisen courtesy of the Protestant Reformation’s mantra: Church? We don’t need no Church! We just need Me, The Bible and the Holy Spirit!

Thanks to the above paradigm we have millions of Christians who don’t know whether

Baptism saves? Or is it an ordinance? Or a sacrament? Or a symbol?
The day of worship is Sunday? Or is it Saturday?
We are once saved, always saved? Or we can lose our salvation?
Women can be ordained? Or only men can?
Abortion is a sin? Or a sacrament?
Divorce and remarriage is adultery? Or is it permissible?
Worship should involve music? Or is it an abomination?
The Eucharist is merely a symbol? Or is it the Real Presence? Or a commemoration?



So, yes, I think the Author of Chaos and Confusion looks at the reality of Christian confusion and smiles. :sad_yes:

We all will come before the Savior someday. It is up to each one of us to find the truth as God gives us the power to see the truth. Only God can lead us to the truth. If we pray to Him and ask Him to show us the truth, I believe it will be revealed. That’s the answer.

 

[MatthewMark]

Well…which religion is correct and which is not? Are you able to tell? Is there going to be only one that is correct or several who are correct?

 

[Porknpie]

Well, I’ve already explained why there is unity. Christ is the center of each true Christian church. I don’t believe there are “33,000” true Christian denominations, but what does it matter? There could be 133,000 denominations and they would each be valid if Jesus was at the center of each one. Where you place trust and faith in a religion, I place trust and faith in Jesus Christ. Christ’s direction is infallible whereas religion can be man-directed. This is the inconsistency Luther encountered.

Wiki says there are 38,000 Christian denominations. A few more than when Jesus said to Peter, upon this rock, I shall build my church" (singular) and “who ever hears you, hears me”. “You” being singular again. For 1,500 years, the Catholic church alone was the “you” in this sentence (ok, Orthodox recognized too). Was Jesus a poor teacher?

Did he error in not saying “who ever hears from one of the churches, hears me?”

Or worse, did he error in not saying “who ever hears from one of my many churches, hears me if you can figure out which church is teaching without error on faith and morals?”

Or worse yet, did he error in not saying “who ever hears from one of my many churches, hears me as each church will have different teaching on faith and morals?” :banghead:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

 

[RevPhil]

After 62 pages of this, I think the answer to the original question is self-explanatory. 62 pages of bickering has solved nothing!

Why am I not a Roman Catholic? Why am I not a member of one of the Protestant denominations? The answer to both is the same. Because I am a Christian. I choose to belong to the “universal church” that Christ founded, the church of “universal love” for God and for all my fellow human beings, as we are all “children of God”!

I have chosen to follow Christ because I believe in His love and His message of love to the world.

I have been a seeker of truth for my entire life, and what I found was that “truth” is everywhere, because God is everywhere! The Catholics do not hold a universal lock on truth any more than the Protestants, Jews, Moslims, Buddhists, Hindus, or any other religion or philosophical system out there does! The only truth and source of truth is God! No person or religion owns all of the truth, because if they did, they would own God Himself!

Without going into all the gory details, let me just say that once upon a time, I belonged to the Roman Catholic Church. I chose to leave that church, not because of religious truth or untruth, but because of some decisions that were made in the name of the RCC that showed the lack of love and understanding for others by men! Not just one or two things, but many over a period of years! Later, I found the same things in Protestant denominations.

I have traveled the world and I have studied at Catholic universities and seminaries, Protestant bible colleges, universities and seminaries, in Buddhist monasteries, with Hindu gurus, and numerous other schools of thought around the world, both ancient and modern. Have I found the truth? Some in each place, but not all in one place. Why? Again, the only source of all truth is God!

Man was stained by original sin, and will always pay the price of that. Christ brought the message of love for all human kind, and the hope of eternal salvation! He paid the cost of our sin on the cross and paved the way for us to follow!. But, we are still human beings and still stained with sin! Only Christ was perfect, no mere human ever was or will be! Be it the lowest beggar or the Pope himself, we are all stained with sin. Even if we live the life of a saint and were to perform daily miracles bring glory to God, we still would die a physical death, because that is the wage of sin! There is no escaping it! It will happen to all of us and there is no cheating death! It is the price we must pay! But Christ brought us life after death!

In my later years, I chose to be ordained as a non-denominational minister. Why? Because I believe in the love of Christ, and that it is our mission to spread the message of Christs love to the world rather that argue over differences of interpretation! It also enables me to move in various religious circles and areas that would be difficult otherwise! I am welcomed in Catholic churches, Protestant Churches, Jewish Synagogs, Buddhist Temples, by Yogi Masters, and I have even been welcomed in a few mosques in the Middle East! It also helps me to follow my calling for my remaining days in this life. I work with the dying and the families of the deceased. Otherwise, I live my days as a humble little Franciscan brother carrying out my daily prayers and rituals. Oh! Yes! Not all Franciscans are Catholics (even though some of the RCC first order Franciscans will argue that you must be RCC to be a Franciscan). There are professed Franciscans from virtually all Christian faiths and denominations, and most acknowledge the others as their fellow brothers and sisters . They have but one goal…to try to emulate the life of Christ and follow in His footsteps, by following the inspiration of Francis and Claire.

There you have it. Take it for what it’s worth. Truth is everywhere and God is the truth!

Pax et bonum

Rev. (Br) Philip E. Evans
Touch Of Compassion Ministries (TOCM)

 

[PRmerger]

After 62 pages of this, I think the answer to the original question is self-explanatory. 62 pages of bickering has solved nothing!

Firstly, RevPhil, this is a forum to discuss religion.

To view the discussion that has ensued on a forum as “bickering” is akin to going to a Cruciverbalist forum and objecting to “62 pages of discussing letters!”

That’s what we do here on the CAFs. We can spend up to 63 pages of dialogue about religion, exchanging ideas.

But bickering? Not so much. :nope:

Why am I not a Roman Catholic? Why am I not a member of one of the Protestant denominations? The answer to both is the same. Because I am a Christian. I choose to belong to the “universal church” that Christ founded, the church of “universal love” for God and for all my fellow human beings, as we are all “children of God”!

I have chosen to follow Christ because I believe in His love and His message of love to the world.

Sure.

But when someone asks you about this Christ that you follow, the moment you start discussing what you believe about him, you are proclaiming a doctrine.

And, as such, what you proclaim will either be True, if it conforms to the faith given once for all to the saints, or False, if it divorces itself from this One True Faith.

I have been a seeker of truth for my entire life, and what I found was that “truth” is everywhere, because God is everywhere! The Catholics do not hold a universal lock on truth any more than the Protestants, Jews, Moslims, Buddhists, Hindus, or any other religion or philosophical system out there does! The only truth and source of truth is God! No person or religion owns all of the truth, because if they did, they would own God Himself!

And yet here you are on this forum proclaiming that you have The Truth.

Why do you get to do this but the Catholic faith does not?

 

[PRmerger]

I’m not sure what you mean by “kiddie theology.”

I mean that which can be taught at Vacation Bible School.

If your theological discussions with your fellow Christians doesn’t go beyond, “Yes, we agree that God made me!” and “Yes, Jesus died for you and me!”, then you are essentially stuck theologically at the level of VBS.

I’m telling you that Protestant churches disagree on far less than you believe. I’ve attended
Lutheran, Brethren, Baptist, and Independent church services. The only difference I see is with presentation. The core truth of each church is Jesus Christ and his relationship with mankind.

Ok. Then ask them what they believe about these things, and you’re going to get so many permutations of different beliefs that you’re going to be all :whacky:

Ask your Lutheran, Baptist, Independent church brethren what they believe about:

• Abortion
  • Attend weekly services, don’t have to go to Church
  • Baptism (sprinkling? Immersion? Infant? Adult? Sacrament? Ordinance? In Jesus’ name only? Using Trinitarian formula?)
  • Charity or no charity (help one another or let them help themselves?)
  • Church leadership, or no leadership
  • Death/Soul Sleep
  • Did Jesus use wine or grape juice at the Last Supper
  • Divorce
  • Drinking allowed, drinking not allowed
  • Head coverings or no head coverings
  • Health and wealth gospel
  • Hell, or no hell
  • Homosexuality
  • Is God‘s Holy Name Jehovah
  • Judge others, don’t judge others
  • Lord’s day on Saturday or Sunday
  • Music or no music (Singing or no singing)
  • Once saved, always saved
  • Ordination
  • Predestination
  • Rapture
  • Sola scriptura/private interpretation
  • The Eucharist (Communion)
  • Tongues (some believe others are not saved if they don’t speak in tongues)
  • Trinity vs. Unitarianism
  • What’s a sin, what is not a sin
  • When to celebrate the Lord’s Day
  • Women pastors, no women pastors

 

[PRmerger]

Where you see disunity, I see unity. Each and every denomination you name is Christ-centered.

Until they start talking about the Bible. :sad_yes:

 

[PRmerger]

My answer should be obvious, but I would categorize you as being “more Catholic” than the typical cafeteria Catholic. (for the record I view that last term positively)…so if those good folks can find a way to remain within the CC, why aren’t you there?

'zactly, Jon!

Come join us at the Table of the Lord!

Remember, join the Church that Christ established, then conform your views to that Church.

Do not find (stay in) a church that is compatible with your own personal views, for that is the essence of creating a god in your own image.

 

[stewstew03]

I have been a seeker of truth for my entire life, and what I found was that “truth” is everywhere, because God is everywhere! The Catholics do not hold a universal lock on truth any more than the Protestants, Jews, Moslims, Buddhists, Hindus, or any other religion or philosophical system out there does! The only truth and source of truth is God! No person or religion owns all of the truth, because if they did, they would own God Himself!

Who do you say Jesus is?

 

[PRmerger]

There could be 133,000 denominations and they would each be valid if Jesus was at the center of each one.

Do you know that the Westboro Baptist Church claims that Jesus is the center of their mission?

And Jehovah’s Witnesses also claim to be Christ-centered.

As do Mormons.

Are you saying that each of them is a valid representation of the Gospel of Christ?

 

[PRmerger]

We all will come before the Savior someday. It is up to each one of us to find the truth as God gives us the power to see the truth. Only God can lead us to the truth. If we pray to Him and ask Him to show us the truth, I believe it will be revealed. That’s the answer.

And this is very Catholic of you to say!

 

[narrow_path]

Wow, what a seemingly futile effort to get through to many Catholics. Just read every comment in this thread. James White was right when he kept bringing up the idea of “Sola Ecclesia” in his debates to characterize the religious system of the RCC.

The entire context of Matthew 16 is Jesus, not Peter. Follow the context, seek the truth. It is Peter’s confession of faith - “Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God” that is the “rock” Jesus refers to. Read and re-read the entire context as many times as you need to. The “church” is people from every tongue, tribe and nation that have a spiritual relationship with Jesus Christ. It is NOT all those who believe they are part of some heirarchical institutionalized church of which one must partake in the sacremental system in order to just have a shot at heaven. Catholicism really saddens me when it is brought to it’s logical conclusion.

So, Mr. Moderator, my heart is saddened, and I do not have contempt for practicing Catholics. In fact,most of my family is Catholic, and I surely don’t have contempt for them. They are just people like anyone else. It’s the false teachings that make my eye twitch. For example, I agree with Catholics that it is anti-biblical to teach,allow or promote gay marriage in society. However, I don’t hate or have contempt for the Catholic priest down the street from me that teaches this - but I will debunk and repudiate his claims that he makes against the teachings of his own church. The same holds true for other claims that people make inside or outside of the RCC that are sub-biblical.

 

[PRmerger]

Wow, what a seemingly futile effort to get through to many Catholics. Just read every comment in this thread. James White was right when he kept bringing up the idea of “Sola Ecclesia” in his debates to characterize the religious system of the RCC.

There is nothing wrong with Sola Ecclesia, understanding that it is the Body of Christ.

Why would anyone be against that?

 

[PRmerger]

The entire context of Matthew 16 is Jesus, not Peter.

Sure. No Catholic ought to find that problematic.

Follow the context, seek the truth. It is Peter’s confession of faith - “Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God” that is the “rock” Jesus refers to.

Again, this is also very Catholic. Were you under the misapprehension that Catholics proclaim otherwise?

From our Catechism: Because of the faith he confessed Peter will remain the unshakable rock of the Church. His mission will be to keep this faith from every lapse and to strengthen his brothers in it.

It is because of Peter’s confession that he is deemed the Rock of the Church, built on the foundation of Christ.

The “church” is people from every tongue, tribe and nation that have a spiritual relationship with Jesus Christ. It is NOT all those who believe they are part of some heirarchical institutionalized church of which one must partake in the sacremental system in order to just have a shot at heaven

Again, very Catholic! (As long as one understands that one’s “relationship with Jesus Christ” begins with a valid baptism).

It’s the false teachings that make my eye twitch

.

Indeed. As it should.