Protestants---You must understand the Saints and why their bodies are incorruptible

[Deacon110]

I expected Protestants to beat up on this thread. I do not believe a Protestant is healed by anyone other than a Catholic priest through which Jesus heals. If you are talking about people like Benny Hinn, who is a liar and a deceiver in his million dollar houses and thousand dollar suits, then I pity you. I will NEVER believe you.

I invite you to read my post as it had nothing to do with Roman Catholic priests. Just a group of prayer warriors.

PEACE

 

[1234]

Another thing, you are a UU, so what you know about my faith is nothing…zero, zilch, nada.

Your attitude, Righteous, is out of sync with the tolerant and informed tenor of this thread and the forum in general. Quit yelling.

Mother T. was a public figure and the details of her life are very well-known.

My point that she was not killed. She died of complications of heart disease, “in her bed”, after receiving excellent medical care, better than she sought for the poor she served.

This is a forum on Non-Catholic Religions.

UU is a Non-Catholic Religion. We debate Catholic subjects on this forum because it is a Catholic forum. Mother T. was a Catholic, therefore details regarding her are subject to debate.

 

[1234]

During my internship in internal medicine, we had a patient with severe kidney disease. She was a married woman with two small children. She and her family were devout members of the Dutch Reformed Church. She went into kidney failure and lost her mind. Because she was psychotic, she was not a candidate for dialysis. We sent her home to die. Her doctor called me and was furious with me for doing this. I responded that we had no choice, because in those days, the government did not pay for dialysis, and it was far too expensive the average family, including this family. There was nothing her doctor could do for her.

The woman did not die. She recovered her kidneys and her mind. I saw her a few months later when she came to clinic. Her kidneys were still recovering, but her function was normal . She was no longer in renal failure. She had completely recovered psychologically.

I decided that God must be Dutch Reformed. IF this case had involved Roman Catholics who had prayed to someone on the canonization list, it would have been declared a miracle.

 

[Margarite]

1234,
The Catholic Church is very hesitant about declaring anything a miracle; it takes years and many tests, and plenty of documentation. In addition, the Catholic Church is very careful in attributing any miracle to any particular saint.

After the death of Pope JPII, a convent of nuns in Poland (I think) decided to pray for the cure of a nun who had Parkinson’s disease. They made the choice to pray only to PJPII so that if there were a miracle, the only person who could be “blamed” would be PJPII. They had a number of doctors examine the nun before and after the miracle and they all confirmed that it was a miracle.

Now we Catholics are not saying that the saints do this on their own, by no means are we saying this. We are instead saying that we ask for their intercession.

Think of it this way. When we have a problem in our lives, we don’t just pray by ourselves, no; we go to our friends and family and ask them to also pray.
When a child wants something, usually, they will go to their mother and ask her to ask their father. Not because the father is mean, or because the father does not want to give something to his children, it is because the mother knows just the right way to ask the father so that he will say yes. The mother is interceding for the children and she is saying it in a better way, she is making the petition more acceptable.
This is how we view praying through the saints, we are not asking them to work a miracle; we are instead asking that they ask God for us. We are asking that they put our petition in a more favorable way.
Another example is that of a child who goes out and picks a bunch of flowers. Many of them are too short of too long, some of the flowers are wilted and squished, so the father trims the stems and picks out the bad flowers and then gives it back to the child so that the child can give the flowers to the mother. Now the mother would be happy about receiving the imperfect flowers, but in the perfected flowers, she sees not only the love of her child, but also that of her husband, and that makes her even more joyful.

These are just a few analogies to praying through the intercession of the saints.

Yours Through Our Lady,
Margarite

 

[Righteousone]

Your attitude, Righteous, is out of sync with the tolerant and informed tenor of this thread and the forum in general. Quit yelling.

Mother T. was a public figure and the details of her life are very well-known.

My point that she was not killed. She died of complications of heart disease, “in her bed”, after receiving excellent medical care, better than she sought for the poor she served.

This is a forum on Non-Catholic Religions.

UU is a Non-Catholic Religion. We debate Catholic subjects on this forum because it is a Catholic forum. Mother T. was a Catholic, therefore details regarding her are subject to debate.

I’ll tell you subject to debate. Try debating these facts 1234,
Her charities grew from 12 to thousands serving “the poorest of the poor” in 450 centers around the world.
She established many homes for the dying and unwanted from Calcutta to New York. She comforted the poor and dying for more than 45 years!!
When she won the Nobel Peace Prize, she insisted on a departure from the ceremony and asked that the funds of $6,000 dollars be given to the poor in Calcutta.

Does that sound like someone who is selfish like you say?? Just because you say she is a “Catholic”, so now we’ll just bash her because of that…geez.

 

[1234]

1234,
The Catholic Church is very hesitant about declaring anything a miracle; it takes years and many tests, and plenty of documentation. In addition, the Catholic Church is very careful in attributing any miracle to any particular saint.

After the death of Pope JPII, a convent of nuns in Poland (I think) decided to pray for the cure of a nun who had Parkinson’s disease. They made the choice to pray only to PJPII so that if there were a miracle, the only person who could be “blamed” would be PJPII. They had a number of doctors examine the nun before and after the miracle and they all confirmed that it was a miracle.

How was the diagnosis of Parkinson’s made? Parkinson’s is a neurological disease with a particular set of symptoms. It is a clinical diagnosis. It can come and go, get worse or remit. Thus only the disappearance of the symptoms *over time *can be regarded as an improvement, if the diagnosis was correct in the first place. There is no other sort way to prove Parkinson’s than by a clinical examination by a qualified neurologist.

Frankly, this case sounds like a setup. There was a huge hue and cry at JPII’s death for him to be declared a saint, “subito!” A *Polish *nun with Parkinson’s or some sort of movement disorder decides to pray for a miracle. She gets herself examined by several doctors (did she? were they all neurologists?) , prays, and gets ‘cured’ and examined by several doctors again. Did they agree ahead of time./ Were they in on it? Did they agree the second time? Were they all neurologists?

I regard this allegation of a ‘miracle’ to be extraordinarily flimsy.

Of all the ‘miracles’ attributed to prayer, not one has involved growing back an amputated limb. Document *that *and we’ll talk about it.

If god is all-good and all-wise no one should have to intercede for us with him. The simile with mother intervening for the kids with father is medieval and tribal in origin. You get someone powerful to intercede for you with the chief, for you don’t have the power yourself. Jesus said over and over that god knows what we want and will never disappoint us–how much more valuable than we are than the sparrows? What father would give a stone to a child who asks for bread, etc. So why do we have to ask for things that god should know we need?

 

[1234]

She established many homes for the dying and unwanted from Calcutta to New York.

She never established her home in New York. What she insisted upon violated the public health codes of New York City. She wanted no elevators. She wanted all clothing and dishes to be washed by hand. She wanted an AIDS death hostel. But antiretrovirals were available then, and AIDS patients weren’t dying anymore, the worse for her.

New York refused her.

 

[Righteousone]

She never established her home in New York. What she insisted upon violated the public health codes of New York City. She wanted no elevators. She wanted all clothing and dishes to be washed by hand. She wanted an AIDS death hostel. But antiretrovirals were available then, and AIDS patients weren’t dying anymore, the worse for her.

New York refused her.

You are an anti-Catholic person and you really are making a fool of yourself for defaming her. I don’t make fun of you for your worshipping of the trees and sky do I? She is a saint and is with God. What about your salvation?
This post is the most ridiculous post on these threads…ha…

 

[1234]

(excerpt)
This post is the most ridiculous post on these threads…ha…

If this post is so ridiculous, why do you keep posting?

 

[Righteousone]

If this post is so ridiculous, why do you keep posting?

Because I started the thread with good intentions to tell you about the beautiful saints and I will defend them as my faith. That’s why, but you come on defaming the dead and telling lies about Mother Teresa. I won’t allow it. So stop doing it and have a conversation intellectually and if you have nothing to say but bad things you know nothing about, don’t say them at all.

 

[Margarite]

All right, you can forget about the nun.

1234:

Of all the ‘miracles’ attributed to prayer, not one has involved growing back an amputated limb. Document *that *and we’ll talk about it.

Of course not! God said, “when the blind see, the lame walk…” he did not say the remaking of what is lost. God does not want to take away our free will and making a limb suddenly appear is basically taking away our free will.

If god is all good and all wise, no one should have to intercede for us with him. The simile with mother intervening for the kids with father is medieval and tribal in origin. You get someone powerful to intercede for you with the chief, for you don’t have the power yourself.

I don’t know your station in life, I don’t know the last time you talked with your parents, or the last time you had to ask them for something. But I do know that I ask them for things all the time and I almost always go to my mother and ask her to ask my father. My father is the best person in the world and the worlds greatest father, but I almost always ask my mom to ask him, or I ask her the best way to ask him. Sometimes it is the opposite, sometimes I have to ask my father to intercede with my mother, or I have to ask him the best way to broach a subject. The fact is I need an intercessor. The fact is, my parents make or break anything I want to do. The fact is, that if I want something bad enough, I have to get a couple people working for me.

You say this is tribal, well I don’t agree, but even if it is, who cares, that is the way life works, that is the way most families work.
You did not reply to the fact that when you need something you pray to God for it. When you really need something, you ask others to also pray. What is the difference between those you know and the saints except that the saints are already in heaven, and the saints have already been through this hard life and not only survived, but also thrived? What is the difference? I think that asking someone who is already in heaven vs. someone who may someday go to hell, to pray for you is so much better.

Jesus said over and over that god knows what we want and will never disappoint us–how much more valuable than we are than the sparrows? What father would give a stone to a child who asks for bread, etc. So why do we have to ask for things that god should know we need?

Yes, God knows what we need. But I know that most people, even if they know what you need, they still like to be asked. Why, because it shows them that you are humble enough, and think them equal, so you ask them. Try putting the saints in the place of people you know, except that you are assured that they are in heaven.

 

[1234]

All right, you can forget about the nun.

Of course not! God said, “when the blind see, the lame walk…” he did not say the remaking of what is lost. God does not want to take away our free will and making a limb suddenly appear is basically taking away our free will.

I don’t know your station in life, I don’t know the last time you talked with your parents, or the last time you had to ask them for something. But I do know that I ask them for things all the time and I almost always go to my mother and ask her to ask my father. My father is the best person in the world and the worlds greatest father, but I almost always ask my mom to ask him, or I ask her the best way to ask him. Sometimes it is the opposite, sometimes I have to ask my father to intercede with my mother, or I have to ask him the best way to broach a subject. The fact is I need an intercessor. The fact is, my parents make or break anything I want to do. The fact is, that if I want something bad enough, I have to get a couple people working for me.

You say this is tribal, well I don’t agree, but even if it is, who cares, that is the way life works, that is the way most families work.
You did not reply to the fact that when you need something you pray to God for it. When you really need something, you ask others to also pray. What is the difference between those you know and the saints except that the saints are already in heaven, and the saints have already been through this hard life and not only survived, but also thrived? What is the difference? I think that asking someone who is already in heaven vs. someone who may someday go to hell, to pray for you is so much better.

Yes, God knows what we need. But I know that most people, even if they know what you need, they still like to be asked. Why, because it shows them that you are humble enough, and think them equal, so you ask them. Try putting the saints in the place of people you know, except that you are assured that they are in heaven.

I think that this idea of God is very anthromorphic.

 

[Margarite]

Yes, I have to think of God in terms of what I know about. I cannot even begin to understand him, so I try to understand him using what he gave me. He gave me parents and Christ called God our Father, so God must be similar to most fathers. So I consider how I relate to my father and take that as a model for how I should relate to God. Sure God is different, but I don’t know how different, so I must use what he gave to me. That is the best that I think anyone can do.

 

[1234]

Yeah, I did the picture thing at the link. Pretty cool. Thanks for the info on Lourdes.

I am struck by the fact that the figure in the casket does not at all resemble Bernadette at the time of her death.

I am frankly surprised that they superimposed the two images.

 

[guanophore]

I expected Protestants to beat up on this thread. I do not believe a Protestant is healed by anyone other than a Catholic priest through which Jesus heals. If you are talking about people like Benny Hinn, who is a liar and a deceiver in his million dollar houses and thousand dollar suits, then I pity you. I will NEVER believe you.

This attitude is contrary to the Teaching of the Catholic Church, which recognizes that the HS does use Protestant communities to bring people into relation with Himself.

 

[guanophore]

I am sorry, but a Catholic priest is the only one who can heal.

You really are a sorry case if you believe that!

He is the one with the authority to do this and yes, I have witnessed miracles from priests and yes, my aunt had MS and was a die hard Protestant. Her pastor tried to heal her but couldn’t (I give the guy credit tho…) She went to a priest and got up from her wheelchair and walked.

God has certainly ordained the priests to heal, but God is not bound by the sacraments.

BTW, a priest too only has the power to excorcise any demons from the human body. This is why Protestant pastors ask a priest to help them…This is well documented.

God has certainly empowered the priest to this ministry, but Jesus is not bound by the Sacraments. Jesus can drive demons out of anyone He wants, using anyone He chooses.

Sorry if I think everyone else is a phony.

No, I do not think you are sorry at all. I think you are reveling in your bigotry!

 

[guanophore]

Wrong. God IS the God of Catholics, you just cannot see this…

On the contrary, I think that everyone can see clearly that God is the God of Catholics. However, God is Lord of all, and He desires that ALL be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. God can speak through the mouth of a donkey! The idea that He cannot work through the faith of a Protestant is ludicrous.

 

[guanophore]

I guess I’m reading a Vatican II statement wrong: “It follows that the separated Churches(23) and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation.” I understand that **Extra ecclessiam nullam salus ** had been a long-standing idea in the Church, but that it was later changed.

-Mark

No, it has not changed. What has changed is that the Church recognizes that not all those who are members are visible as Catholics.

 

[Singinbeauty]

On the contrary, I think that everyone can see clearly that God is the God of Catholics. However, God is Lord of all, and He desires that ALL be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. God can speak through the mouth of a donkey! The idea that He cannot work through the faith of a Protestant is ludicrous.

I wouldn’t try with Righteousone… This person’s hatred of protestants is evident in pretty much EVERY post that they write. I have given up on this person softening their heart to God in recognizing their brothers and sisters in Christ.

This thread is disgusting in its bashing of protestants…

 

[Righteousone]

I wouldn’t try with Righteousone… This person’s hatred of protestants is evident in pretty much EVERY post that they write. I have given up on this person softening their heart to God in recognizing their brothers and sisters in Christ.

This thread is disgusting in its bashing of protestants…

Singinbeauty, show me where I bashed Protestants. I only say the truth and you can’t handle it. I do not hate Protestants, you always say this and I am telling you I DO NOT HATE PROTESTANTS, there are a lot of Catholic bashing going on in these threads, you don’t hear me whining about it.
I as a Catholic am not a sister in christ with you. It won’t happen, you have too many contradictory beliefs and that’s that. It is what it is. We are seperated by your beliefs. They do not coincide with Catholic teaching, the church started by Christ. I suppose you’ll find something here to say I treated you bad…I give up.