Proud of my Baby Girl

[Hume]

Was taking my six-year-old daughter to an appointment yesterday.

She’s a thinker and has a particular penchant for religion. And since my wife is religious although I’m not, I honor my wife’s commitment to her religion and attend with her on Sundays, along with the kids.

So back to the car ride,

“Daddy?”
“Yes, Sweet Love?”
"If Jesus and God created us and also want us to go to heaven, why didn’t they just create us already in heaven?
"Sweetie, I have absolutely no idea. It does sound a little confusing. So, * changes subject *.

No point really being made. Just proud of my little blooming skeptic.

But for the sake of stimulating discussion, if the part of us that willfully sins is apparently gone when we die and open our eyes in the afterlife, why were we made with that part in the first place? As we appear to lose it, it seems nothing more than an unnecessary “Damnation Generator” with the sole purpose of populating Christian hell.

Thoughts?

 

[StudentMI]

For my part I’ve never understood how God creates people knowing they’ll go to hell, but somehow that doesn’t predestine them to hell.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

No point really being made. Just proud of my little blooming skeptic.

Heaven is union with God as a result of a free choice to love Him. If God just zapped us into Heaven it would negate our free will.

 

[Hume]

For my part I’ve never understood how God creates people knowing they’ll go to hell, but somehow that doesn’t predestine them to hell.

Seems to be a bit of a mystery to me as well. The struggle against that idea dominated most of my twenties whereas the struggle against The Binding of Isaac dominated my teens.

 

[Hume]

Hume:

No point really being made. Just proud of my little blooming skeptic.

Heaven is union with God as a result of a free choice to love Him. If God just zapped us into Heaven it would negate our free will.

The issue I’m pointing out is that either the ability to sin was not a necessary part of our free will or we get our free will zapped when we go to heaven anyway.

 

[SPBlitz]

Perhaps it’s the difference between being created in time or in eternity. The angels were created in Heaven and in eternity - those that fell were eternally lost. We were created in time, meaning that it’s possible for us to change. We can fall, but also have the potential to change.

 

[StudentMI]

Seems to be a bit of a mystery to me as well. The struggle against that idea dominated most of my twenties whereas the struggle against The Binding of Isaac dominated my teens.

I’ve never been that troubled by the binding of Isaac myself. But the thing about predestination has almost never ceased to interest me.

 

[PatienceAndHumility]

"If Jesus and God created us and also want us to go to heaven, why didn’t they just create us already in heaven?
"Sweetie, I have absolutely no idea. It does sound a little confusing

Dear friend- great question! And sounds like a very bright young girl! I would answer- “God gave us freedom to choose Him. He wants us to choose Him and we spend our lives on earth getting ready to meet Him, forming our souls. In all our actions we can either choose to be with him or not.”

It might seem crazy, but some people end up actually choosing hell. This is the nature of free will and the temptations we face as mankind. The allures of temporal earth are enough for some to forsake an eternity of peace.

 

[Hume]

Perhaps it’s the difference between being created in time or in eternity. The angels were created in Heaven and in eternity - those that fell were eternally lost. We were created in time, meaning that it’s possible for us to change. We can fall, but also have the potential to change.

Do we lose that ability when we go to heaven?

 

[Hume]

Although I disagree with it, that is an interesting view and thank you for providing it.

 

[SPBlitz]

I’m not sure. There’s quite some debate on the subject. I view eternity as all moments being present - so it’s not so much that you lose the ability to change, but any changes you make are eternally present.

 

[PatienceAndHumility]

I would be interested in your opinion on it friend. Peace

 

[Hume]

Hate to cut and run, but I’ve shirked my duty long enough. Brb in several hours.

Guy waiting on me.

Feel free to keep opining!

 

[StudentMI]

I view eternity as all moments being present - so it’s not so much that you lose the ability to change, but any changes you make are eternally present.

I believe it was St Augustine who said that the rebellion of the angels must have been right after they were created because of eternity being timeless. Doesn’t make sense to me.

 

[SPBlitz]

I believe it was St Augustine who said that the rebellion of the angels must have been right after they were created because of eternity being timeless. Doesn’t make sense to me.

I wouldn’t say after - I’d say at the moment of creation. The first moment they existed they either chose Heaven or Hell - and that choice was eternal. It’s hard for us to comprehend since we can’t fathom instantaneous knowledge and choice like that.

 

[Zaccheus]

Was taking my six-year-old daughter to an appointment yesterday.

She’s a thinker and has a particular penchant for religion. And since my wife is religious although I’m not, I honor my wife’s commitment to her religion and attend with her on Sundays, along with the kids.

So back to the car ride,

“Daddy?”
“Yes, Sweet Love?”
"If Jesus and God created us and also want us to go to heaven, why didn’t they just create us already in heaven?
"Sweetie, I have absolutely no idea. It does sound a little confusing. So, * changes subject *.

No point really being made. Just proud of my little blooming skeptic.

But for the sake of stimulating discussion, if the part of us that willfully sins is apparently gone when we die and open our eyes in the afterlife, why were we made with that part in the first place? As we appear to lose it, it seems nothing more than an unnecessary “Damnation Generator” with the sole purpose of populating Christian hell.

Thoughts?

We were not made with it. Adam and Eve were made with free will but no inclination to sin. They could have remained good and faithful to God all their lives, and would have gone to Heaven without ever sinning. Then they decided they wanted to be their own gods. At which point their wills became disordered, and we inherit that disorder.

 

[StudentMI]

I wouldn’t say after - I’d say at the moment of creation. The first moment they existed they either chose Heaven or Hell - and that choice was eternal. It’s hard for us to comprehend since we can’t fathom instantaneous knowledge and choice like that.

Then that raises the question of being predestined to hell.

 

[fhansen]

We’re actually here in this exile from God to work on not being willful sinners to the greatest extent possible, with the help of experience, revelation/knowledge, and grace. And this non-sinful state is actually a prerequisite for entrance into heaven according to Scripture. If we’ve grown towards perfection enough, while not yet fully in this life, then we enter a merciful place known as purgatory to put on the finishing touches of purification, of rectifying the will so to speak.

The reward is heaven; the reward is God, meeting Him 'face to face". At that point the will is so completely captivated and satiated by the full object of all human desire that it could never want for anything else again. Meanwhile God wants our participation in coming to realize or achieve that justice or righteousness. From the catechism:

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."26

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.27

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil , and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

 

[SPBlitz]

hen that raises the question of being predestined to hell.

They weren’t predestined since their choice still came from themselves. God didn’t create them to rebel, just with the free will that allowed them to rebel. The demons first exercise of that free will was to reject Him

 

[StudentMI]

They weren’t predestined since their choice still came from themselves. God didn’t create them to rebel, just with the free will that allowed them to rebel. The demons first exercise of that free will was to reject Him

So he created individuals knowing they’d go to hell of their own free choice but didn’t predestine them? How does that work?