Proud of my Baby Girl

[StudentMI]

I’ll agree to that.

It seems that we have no free will in heaven, then.

I wonder if the souls in hell still have free will…

I’ve often wondered that about Heaven. Like, what if people rebel?

 

[Hume]

I’ve often wondered that about Heaven. Like, what if people rebel?

I know, right? I mean, apparently it’s happened before with angels.

Or could the devil change his mind? Would God accept his repentance?

 

[StudentMI]

Apparently not because despite the fact God created the angels in eternity and they rebelled in eternity which implies change, they can’t change now because they’re in eternity? I get confused thinking about it.

 

[Hume]

Apparently not because despite the fact God created the angels in eternity and they rebelled in eternity which implies change, they can’t change now because they’re in eternity? I get confused thinking about it.

Yeah, same. Discrete events in an eternal setting… How do I even?

 

[SPBlitz]

It’d be fixed for good if he performed whatever miracle he does to make us no longer sin when we die and go to heaven.

Being see how this solves the problem. You still end up with your free will being meaningless. Even if you did choose to reject God he’d simply veto it at the last second and force you to choose him. Again, this isn’t free will.

I’ve yet to hear a good argument by which God could simultaneously let us be free to reject him while also ensuring that no one rejects him.

 

[Wesrock]

Well, it’s a wound upon humanity that your god predestined into existence, right? The whole idea of being omniscent and omnipresent across all time simultaneously sorta demands it.

God. Not my God. We’re talking about the Principle of reality, not a patron of a people.

God did will reality into existing knowing humanity would exist in such disunion. But the disunion was not willed for its own sake.

Seems like a loving God would have kept quite a few people out of hell if whatever correction is applied upon death he simply applied after the original sin, no?

The inference that in order to be called loving God must keep people out of Hell is not one I agree with.

It just seems that it also created a lot of evil and eternal suffering in a lot of people that won’t get to participate in the ultimate good of eternal worship. I guess we have to take (Aquinas?) word for it.

And as I noted above, such evils are not willed for their own sake, but are concomitant to some good end being willed.

So then is free-will destroyed in heaven?

No. It is perfected.

 

[Hume]

Being see how this solves the problem. You still end up with your free will being meaningless. Even if you did choose to reject God he’d simply veto it at the last second and force you to choose him. Again, this isn’t free will.

If the ultimate fate in heaven involves the annihilation of free will for the eternities (as it appears), then it really is meaningless. It’s double-meaningless if you believe in a God that is omnipresent at all points in time from the creation of the universe.

I’ve yet to hear a good argument by which God could simultaneously let us be free to reject him while also ensuring that no one rejects him.

It appear that freedom isn’t sacrosanct as, again, it appears we don’t have it when we’re “on the other side”.

But I can be wrong. My wife often tells me I am.

 

[SPBlitz]

f the ultimate fate in heaven involves the annihilation of free will for the eternities (as it appears), then it really is meaningless. It’s double-meaningless if you believe in a God that is omnipresent at all points in time from the creation of the universe.

Not everyone believes that there is no free will in Heaven.

 

[Hume]

God did will reality into existing knowing humanity would exist in such disunion. But the disunion was not willed for its own sake.

Who knows why your deity does anything?

What seems to be true is that the disunion was knowingly destined before he took the breath that breathed creation into existence.

The inference that in order to be called loving God must keep people out of Hell is not one I agree with.

Then we agree to disagree there.

And as I noted above, such evils are not willed for their own sake, but are concomitant to some good end being willed.

And there it is, in truth. The only possible (but not demonstrable) justification for deliberately planning evil and hell - that a good greater in absolute value than the torments of the damned will come from their inevitable screams.

I guess were we depart is that I just don’t buy it, although you’re free to.

No. It is perfected.

Meaning?

 

[Hume]

Hume:

f the ultimate fate in heaven involves the annihilation of free will for the eternities (as it appears), then it really is meaningless. It’s double-meaningless if you believe in a God that is omnipresent at all points in time from the creation of the universe.

Not everyone believes that there is no free will in Heaven.

That’s true.

Christian heaven is certainly something we don’t really know much about.

“Through a glass darkly”, or whatever it is Paul wrote.

 

[Zaccheus]

There seems to be a disharmony in your belief on the topic. At least it looks that way to me.

I have the power to choose to do something that I have no inclination toward doing.
Example: I have no inclination toward letting myself be shot. But if someone I love is about to be shot, I might step between them and the shooter. I choose to do something I would not normally do, for a good and serious reason.

It is possible to choose to do something for which I have no inclination.
Adam and Eve had no inclination to sin. They could have spent their lives on Earth in perfect sinlessness. But they were given a choice, and using their free will, they chose wrongly. They sinned.

Well, it’s a wound upon humanity that your god predestined into existence, right?

God created us with free will. That means God accepted the possibility that some of us would misuse His gift to us. It does not mean God predestined us to misuse His gift.

Being created without free will would have meant we were incapable of choosing to love. That would have been a horrible wound.

 

[Lara]

God’s plan for heaven and hell could never be a “Damnation Generator” because it is actually very simple to get into heaven.

You need only submit your Will to God’s will and say sorry for your sins often enough that there might only be a few venial sins left over when you die.

Only a proud person could think of heaven as unattainable.

 

[StudentMI]

Yeah, same. Discrete events in an eternal setting… How do I even?

Still, at the same time I do believe we are seeing through a glass darkly. I think the Eastern approach of not relying so much on reason but accepting mystery is a good thing.

 

[AlbMagno]

I guess were we depart is that I just don’t buy it

Pretty much all arguments between Christians and Non-theists come down to this, so I just don’t know the utility of these threads at all, other than to re-affirm some points from Philosophy and Theology…

 

[adamhovey1988]

I’m a natural skeptic, including skeptical of atheism and agnosticism. Which is why I am a Christian. One cannot call them self a skeptic and not be skeptical of skepticism.

 

[Hume]

I have the power to choose to do something that I have no inclination toward doing.
Example: I have no inclination toward letting myself be shot. But if someone I love is about to be shot, I might step between them and the shooter. I choose to do something I would not normally do, for a good and serious reason.

So you think, but the outcome of the event was locked since the foundations of the universe. If God knew that the shooter was going to successfully shoot the person you love, then neither you nor all the king’s horses and men could do a thing to stop it.

In the context of an omnipresent creator God, your free will is an illusion. You may feel you made a choice but literally no other outcome was existentially possible.

God created us with free will. That means God accepted the possibility that some of us would misuse His gift to us. It does not mean God predestined us to misuse His gift.

If God is omnipresent then in the moment of creation not only did Genesis 1:1 begin, today began too - at least from the perspective of an omnipresent god.

Still, at the same time I do believe we are seeing through a glass darkly. I think the Eastern approach of not relying so much on reason but accepting mystery is a good thing.

100%.

If Christianity could possibly be true, the truth lies east of Rome. Of that I’m certain.

Absolutely no offense intended to the Catholics here. Just how I feel.

Pretty much all arguments between Christians and Non-theists come down to this, so I just don’t know the utility of these threads at all, other than to re-affirm some points from Philosophy and Theology…

Eh, never a bad idea to get different people to talk to each other. Might be old-hat to us, but maybe not to others.

I’m a natural skeptic, including skeptical of atheism and agnosticism. Which is why I am a Christian. One cannot call them self a skeptic and not be skeptical of skepticism.

The universal default claim is “uncertainty” or “undefined”. Anyone who wishes to move from it must make their case. No one gets a pass, unfortunately.

 

[SPBlitz]

Your daughter did have a very good question - one beyond her years. I’ve thought about it myself a few times. I think the error comes about by viewing Heaven as merely a place - as though all God had to do was create us within the space called Heaven and we would therefore be in Heaven. But Heaven is more than that - it is the beatific vision. It seems that the beatific vision has to be freely chosen. Perhaps the phrase ‘being forced into Heaven’ is an oxymoron.

It’s telling that the only two examples we have of beings that can experience Heaven (angels and humans) both require free will. And even now, when God has provided us a miracle to fix the effects of Original sin (the incarnation, death and resurrection of Jesus) free will is still an essential ingredient. You still have to choose the miracle. That all seems to suggest that God creating beings in Heaven without them at least partially choosing it is intrinsically impossible.

 

[Hume]

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[PatienceAndHumility]

does this ability to choose or stop choosing go away when we die?

That is correct, in the context of the afterlife. There are of course unique exceptions like aborted babies etc. and this is where other teachings apply.

As far as people choosing hell, I’ve honestly never met one. Most I know that have consciously turned away from religious belief do so because they think, rightly or wrongly, that reality must be observable to be knowable and they simply can’t observe any deities.

Yes there are those who choose hell by rejecting Truth and surpressing their conscience. But there are also those who literally declare a choice of hell, knowing truly the consequences- look at the many people who practice witchcraft or even new age philosophy.

 

[Anicette]

catholics don’t believe in predestination