Proud of my Baby Girl

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So he created individuals knowing they’d go to hell of their own free choice but didn’t predestine them? How does that work?
Because the choice itself didn’t come from God - it came from themselves. They were just as able to choose not to rebel.

Also, I know this is a topic of some debate, but I think the problem comes from subconsciously placing God in time - as though God existed for a time before the angels where he knew that it the future they’d rebel, and then went on to create them at some later moment. But God doesnt exist in time like that - there wasn’t a point where he had foreknowledge of the angels choice - he knew their choice because it happened in his unbounded present.
 
But God doesnt exist in time like that - there wasn’t a point where he had foreknowledge of the angels choice - he knew their choice because it happened in his unbounded present.
He’s eternally known their choice and the choice of everyone who’s ever existed. How is that not predestination? He chose to withdraw his grace from some knowing they’d go to hell.
 
He’s eternally known their choice and the choice of everyone who’s ever existed. How is that not predestination? He chose to withdraw his grace from some knowing they’d go to hell.
But he only knows their choice because he sees them making it in his present. Watching someone make a choice is not the same as making them make that choice.
 
I don’t know if I can really engage in a lengthy discussion, but I have a few quick comments.

Insofar as Catholic theology views concupiscence, or inclinations towards sin, I’d like to frame how this is removed when we go to Heaven. It’s not some additional part that is taken away. It’s more of a wound that is healed, or like blindness being restored. Imagine a human being as a painted vase with many cracks running through it. A person being perfected when they go to Heaven is like the vase being perfected and the cracks removed/fixed as if they were never there. But I mean, you don’t remove a crack anymore than you remove a hole, except insofar as you’re referring to how you fill in an empty space.

Insofar as when the body is restored at the resurrection, the body is still changeable, but it is fashioned (and this is just a theological response based on Christian revelation and not something one would deduce if one was just working from the point of observation of nature alone – the resurrection in general is a revelation not something known by natural philosophy) in a way that is fitting to the perfected person, and such that the person’s intellect properly rules the bodily appetites. The person who has the beatific vision has also obtained their highest good, the thing all other possible goods try to approximate, and the person truly finds a rest in their appetites in having obtained it.

The next part is not a response to why the problem of evil is not contradictory with God’s nature. I’ve attempted to lay out a response to that problem in another post on the board, but that’s not what this post is. However, taking for granted that the problem of evil is not in conflict with God’s nature, then why does God allow it? One response may be because it brings about some greater good, but in what way? Such… diversity… allows for many different types of being to be instantiated, which makes the universe more of an image of God than if fewer, finite types were present and other types were not expressed. Similarly, there are certain virtues that could not be developed and expressed in nature without such discrepancies, from what we’d call self-less charity or courage. These are types of goods that would not be present otherwise, and we are really allowed to participate in and develop these things in ourselves through our own agency (and intellect and volition are also types of goodness in God). The diversity and greater variety of goods is therefore better (in terms of manifesting and sharing God’s own being) than a more limited reality.
 
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Love. A love freely chosen, not coerced by displays of limitless beauty, majesty and truth. A love not bribed into being by pouring out shameless amounts of gifts and blessings. I think God just wants to be loved, truly loved. That’s the relationship with us that he wants to have forever. If heaven is automatic, wouldn’t that undermine love?
 
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But for the sake of stimulating discussion, if the part of us that willfully sins is apparently gone when we die and open our eyes in the afterlife, why were we made with that part in the first place? As we appear to lose it, it seems nothing more than an unnecessary “Damnation Generator” with the sole purpose of populating Christian hell.
In a short and simple answer: free will. God wants us to choose to love him, from a free act of our will. He has given us the ability to choose Him or to reject Him. He has given us freedom. He even gave this choice to the angels. What kind of love would love not freely chosen be?
 
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Loving is giving of self freely. Being made direct in heaven does not allow us to “give” freely of ourselves to God.

From the book, “Into Your Hands Father” by Wilfrid Stinissen…
-If we are subject to trials here on earth, if we must struggle to say Yes to God, it is because in eternity God wants to say to us: “You have given me something. It is not only I who give, but rather we give to each other. I give myself in gratitude because you have given me something that you could have refused to give. Now you can no longer give me anything, but at one time you did, and it has an eternal value. I never forget.”
 
He created specific individuals knowing they’d transgress and go to hell and didn’t give them the grace necessary to convert them.
 
But he did give them the grace necessary. They chose to reject it.
 
We were not made with it. Adam and Eve were made with free will but no inclination to sin.
Then they decided they wanted to be their own gods. At which point their wills became disordered, and we inherit that disorder.
There seems to be a disharmony in your belief on the topic. At least it looks that way to me.
Insofar as Catholic theology views concupiscence, or inclinations towards sin, I’d like to frame how this is removed when we go to Heaven. It’s not some additional part that is taken away. It’s more of a wound that is healed, or like blindness being restored.
Well, it’s a wound upon humanity that your god predestined into existence, right? The whole idea of being omniscent and omnipresent across all time simultaneously sorta demands it.
Insofar as when the body is restored at the resurrection, the body is still changeable, but it is fashioned (and this is just a theological response based on Christian revelation and not something one would deduce if one was just working from the point of observation of nature alone – the resurrection in general is a revelation not something known by natural philosophy) in a way that is fitting to the perfected person, and such that the person’s intellect properly rules the bodily appetites.
Seems like a loving God would have kept quite a few people out of hell if whatever correction is applied upon death he simply applied after the original sin, no?
However, taking for granted that the problem of evil is not in conflict with God’s nature, then why does God allow it?
The diversity and greater variety of goods is therefore better (in terms of manifesting and sharing God’s own being) than a more limited reality.
Sure. “So greater good may come”.

It just seems that it also created a lot of evil and eternal suffering in a lot of people that won’t get to participate in the ultimate good of eternal worship. I guess we have to take (Aquinas?) word for it.
Love. A love freely chosen, not coerced by displays of limitless beauty, majesty and truth. A love not bribed into being by pouring out shameless amounts of gifts and blessings. I think God just wants to be loved, truly loved. That’s the relationship with us that he wants to have forever. If heaven is automatic, wouldn’t that undermine love?
I don’t think “because god loves us” would have answered the question sufficiently. In both her mind and mine, a super-loving god wouldn’t let a single soul burn for eternity.

But thanks for your view.
In a short and simple answer: free will.
So then is free-will destroyed in heaven?
 
Dear friend- great question! And sounds like a very bright young girl! I would answer- “God gave us freedom to choose Him. He wants us to choose Him and we spend our lives on earth getting ready to meet Him, forming our souls. In all our actions we can either choose to be with him or not.”

It might seem crazy, but some people end up actually choosing hell. This is the nature of free will and the temptations we face as mankind. The allures of temporal earth are enough for some to forsake an eternity of peace.
I would be interested in your opinion on it friend. Peace
Sure.

On the first part - our ability to choose God.
As the angels rebelled in heaven, does this ability to choose or stop choosing go away when we die? It certainly seems that way to me, but I’d appreciate your thoughts.

As far as people choosing hell, I’ve honestly never met one. Most I know that have consciously turned away from religious belief do so because they think, rightly or wrongly, that reality must be observable to be knowable and they simply can’t observe any deities.

I don’t think anyone surveys Christian hell in the context of belief and then says “Yep. That’s what I want.”

I could be wrong, but I’ve never knowingly met that creature.
 
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There are two things we do well to give back to God — our conscience and our free will. Give your conscience to God, to be shaped and totally conformed to the teachings of the Church, and give your free will to God, to be done with it what He wishes, nothing more, nothing less, nothing else. Makes life a whole lot easier, and makes eternal life in heaven much more likely.

I have to think there are souls in hell who wish they’d never heard of “free will”.
 
Seems like a loving God would have kept quite a few people out of hell if whatever correction is applied upon death he simply applied after the original sin, no?
Sure, he could have done this via miracle. But that would only be good if he was prepared to remove the second act of sin by miracle. And the third. And forth. And so on. But this would make a world where nothing was ever decided by your free will. How can you chose evil if you know your evil actions will be miracled away?
 
I don’t think “because god loves us” would have answered the question sufficiently. In both her mind and mine, a super-loving god wouldn’t let a single soul burn for eternity.
I’m glad to be loved, but that is not quite what I meant. My answer could be re-phrased “So God could be loved back”. To be loved back is perhaps the one thing God cannot do for himself. Can you call it “love” if it is forced, coerced, or if there is only that one option open to you? The Bible talks about the church as the bride of Christ. Would you want to be married to somebody who is forced to marry you? I sure wouldn’t. I don’t think he would either.

I agree that this concept would probably not make a ton of sense to your six-year-old, as bright as she might be. BTW she sounds awesome. You’re blessed.

I hate the concept of hell, and I wish it either were not true, or it would end up empty. But I’m gonna prepare as if it’s real. And it is actually a lot of fun to act in love towards God. I get so much more out of it than I put in.
 
I hope the mother of this child tells her about being created with free will and living with faith, hope and love. 😮
 
Doesn’t the catechism disagree?

‘When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight’
 
Sure, he could have done this via miracle. But that would only be good if he was prepared to remove the second act of sin by miracle. And the third. And forth. And so on.
It’d be fixed for good if he performed whatever miracle he does to make us no longer sin when we die and go to heaven.
Some kinds of grace interfere with free will.
I’ll agree to that.

It seems that we have no free will in heaven, then.

I wonder if the souls in hell still have free will…
I’m glad to be loved, but that is not quite what I meant. My answer could be re-phrased “So God could be loved back”.
Well, fair enough. Although my leanings about predestination and the supposed sovereignty of God makes me wonder how consensual the “loving back” part really is. Thanks for the reply.
BTW she sounds awesome. You’re blessed.
Thanks. Very kind.
I hope the mother of this child tells her about being created with free will and living with faith, hope and love.
She does, as do the Baptists at the local contemporary disco-church.
 
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