Proud to be a cafeteria Catholic

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

… Was it Pope Benedict that invented the phase “cafeteria catholic”?

I doubt it, but so-called “doctrinal police” got introduced to the thread so I’m countering “them” with him!

 

[roseofshannon]

Yep, and telling people they can and in some cases, should leave the church isn’t spreading the truth with love and mercy.

Simpleas,
Was Jesus okay with people leaving the Church?

Did He ever call people to accountability for their sins?

What did He say was required of those who wanted to be called His followers?

 

[simpleas]

Simpleas,
Was Jesus okay with people leaving the Church?

Did He ever call people to accountability for their sins?

What did He say was required of those who wanted to be called His followers?

I’m not great at quoting scripture, I don’t recall where Jesus told anyone to go away from him because of what they had done or were doing. One verse comes to mind, when he said “get behind me satan” to peter, yet he handed the keys to peter to build his church.

The last command Jesus left his followers was to love God and neighbour, of course we can inform people of what is deemed right or wrong, but it is for the individual to come to their own conclusion, how ever long it takes them, to exclude people is to try and act as God himself.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

Coming back to why this thread was posted in the “evangelisation” category.

I like lateral thinking these days so I thought about cafeterias!

Whilst some restaurants advertise “everything on the menu” stunts, on the whole it is a place where you “keep coming back”.

How much is it relevant either to us individually or to those around us that a place can be provided where one can “keep coming back” for more unfolding of and instruction in faith?

 

[grannymh]

Here’s another perspective :

huffingtonpost.com/rea-nolan-martin/proud-to-be-a-cafeteria-c_b_4676955.html

I noticed the perspective in these words. “Christ was a cafeteria Jew.” I wonder if Rea knows that in the Catholic Church, it is taught that Christ is the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity. Her remark reminds me of people who downgrade Christ with hidden attacks against His [divine] authority as founder of the Catholic Church, so that the “list” is updated according to their personal preferences.

 

[grannymh]

The last command Jesus left his followers was to love God and neighbour, of course we can inform people of what is deemed right or wrong, but it is for the individual to come to their own conclusion, how ever long it takes them, to exclude people is to try and act as God himself.

I hope my impression is totally wrong. However, it sounds to me that the Catholic Church is no longer needed since “it is for the individual to come to their own conclusion, …”.

It seems to me that the people who are attacking Catholicism from inside the Church have already excluded themselves.

 

[simpleas]

I hope my impression is totally wrong. However, it sounds to me that the Catholic Church is no longer needed since “it is for the individual to come to their own conclusion, …”.

It seems to me that the people who are attacking Catholicism from inside the Church have already excluded themselves.

I think that evangelization is needed within the church as well as outside the church.

I was thinking on the conscience for a few days. Is the church our conscience that keeps us from making the wrong choices, and if so, when do we use our conscience without the aid of the church?
We are individuals, we have different perspectives on many things in our lives, but with God we seem to think that everyone should think the same.

 

[Polycarp1]

Just to satisfy my own curiosity, what would you call them?

Smorgasbord Catholics?

 

[OneSheep]

While I agree that we should not throw out the label “heretic” lightly, we should also not fall into the other extreme of not admitting one as a heretic if he in fact is. Otherwise, we would not know who is a danger to the faith. There are heretics; that’s a fact and they can be identified, and in certain cases, warned against.

I have no problem calling heretics such groups as the National Catholic Reporter, Catholics for a Free Choice, Call to Action, Voice of the Faithful, Catholic Women Priests. We need to know what they are so that we can steer the faithful from them AND identify them for correction, including through penalties if necessary. They don’t have merely “different” ways of thinking. Thomists and Molinists have different ways of thinking. These are dissenters, obstinately denying truths already declared by the Church to be held. They are heretics.

Sure, don’t throw out the term “heretic” lightly. But at the same time, don’t be afraid to use it when it’s actually called for.

You don’t throw out WHAT term lightly?

Just a little conscience formation, for those of you who use the word “heretic” lightly:

“Heretic” is not a lay term. Canon Law specifically lines out what heresy is, and is very specific about who is a “heretic”. Such determinations are not made by laity, and there are a number of things that have to be proven.

Please, do not use the term. Ever. Please.

Where Charity and Love Prevail

Where charity and love prevail, there God is ever found; Brought here together by Christ’s love, by love are we thus bound.

With grateful joy and holy fear His charity we learn; Let us with heart and mind and soul now love him in return.

Forgive we now each other’s faults as we our faults confess; And let us love each other well in Christian holiness.

Let strife among us be unknown, let all contention cease; Be His the glory that we seek, be ours His holy peace.

Let us recall that in our midst dwells God’s begotten Son; As members of His body joined, we are in Him made one.

No race or creed can love exclude, if honored be God’s name; **Our family embraces all whose Father is the same. **

And I would add this: God is everyone’s Father, whether or not a person claims Him as such. So, let us embrace the human race, shall we?

Godspeed.

 

[PRmerger]

You don’t throw out WHAT term lightly?

Just a little conscience formation, for those of you who use the word “heretic” lightly:

“Heretic” is not a lay term. Canon Law specifically lines out what heresy is, and is very specific about who is a “heretic”. Such determinations are not made by laity, and there are a number of things that have to be proven.

Indeed. I never use the term “heretic” unless the Church has used the term.

However, identifying heresy is something I believe I am capable of determining.

 

[mek42]

Ah but saying “people who leave the Church” is relevant because in fact Canon Law speaks differently.

"The Code of Canon Law currently does not recognize that someone can leave the Catholic Church. You might become a non-practicing member, but the Church’s laws consider anyone baptized Catholic to always be Catholic.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12648280&postcount=2

This is interesting to read. I’m lapsed, unconfirmed, but have received infant baptism, reconciliation and communion as a child. I have not renounced the Catholic Church or joined a competing organization, yet when I mentioned that I sought to maintain citizenship in the Church by not formally divesting, was told by another here that what I said meant nothing.

 

[PRmerger]

This is interesting to read. I’m lapsed, unconfirmed, but have received infant baptism, reconciliation and communion as a child. I have not renounced the Catholic Church or joined a competing organization, yet when I mentioned that I sought to maintain citizenship in the Church by not formally divesting, was told by another here that what I said meant nothing.

I suspected that you had taken this poster’s comments out of context, and…sure enough, this is what I found:

PaulfromIowa:

The facts of your marriage have nothing at all to do with whether your daughter can be baptized.

“Citizenship in the Church” means nothing. We are either Christians or not. If you want her to have Catholic religious education, you should consider having her baptized. Talk to a priest about this.

Even if she is unbaptized, I would imagine that she could attend Catholic religious education in the hope that she would later be baptized.

What is meant by your citizenship “means nothing” was in regards to your daughter’s baptism and raising her Catholic.

 

[roseofshannon]

I’m not great at quoting scripture, I don’t recall where Jesus told anyone to go away from him because of what they had done or were doing. One verse comes to mind, when he said “get behind me satan” to peter, yet he handed the keys to peter to build his church.

The last command Jesus left his followers was to love God and neighbour, of course we can inform people of what is deemed right or wrong, but it is for the individual to come to their own conclusion, how ever long it takes them, to exclude people is to try and act as God himself.

Okay, so please believe me when I say that I’m not trying to “hit you over the head” with scripture or be unkind in any way. I would just like to point out that Jesus sometimes wasn’t very “nice” and could be very challenging to people, adamantly demanding that they make a choice.

For instance:

The full passage you refer to is from Matthew 16:22:

From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day. 22Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You.” 23But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.”

Wasn’t it kind of Peter to not want Jesus to suffer? Actually Peter was tempting Jesus to avoid suffering and accepting his cross. Many in the Church who are preaching against some of the difficult teachings on abortion,divorce/remarriage, sexual mores etc., may seem to be kind and merciful because they don’t want to see people have to suffer, but they are acting as enablers to sin which leads to death of the soul.

The very next words of Jesus in that passage:
Then Jesus said to His disciples,

"If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25"For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

Unfortunately he doesn’t say to indulge ourselves and pick up our pillows and follow him. Christianity is a tough road and not for the faint of heart. We have to be ready to give up anything that comes between us and Jesus.

25"For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.

We all (pharisees and fleshly sinners alike) have to ask what we are giving in exchange for our souls? What do we need to give up even if it’s hard?

The Narrow Gate
13"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Not everyone gets in, in fact the number is small, not large.

In Mark 7:21 Jesus says

For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23"All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.

So Jesus was clear about the sins we need to repent from. Many point out that Jesus didn’t condemn the woman being stoned. This is true He showed her love, compassion and mercy. But he did finish by saying:

“Go. From now on sin no more.”

John 8:11

He didn’t say not to worry about it, sin is relative anyway and everyone sins, so go and sin some more if that’s what you’re comfortable with. Or even just take your time and evolve when you feel ready. He warns us in several places that we have a limited time:

And I will say to my soul, “Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years to come; take your ease, eat, drink and be merry.”’ 20"But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your soul is required of you"

Luke 12:20

He’s very firm about it, but it’s the most loving thing because He wants us to spend eternity with Him in Heaven.

Jesus lost many followers when He explained that we must actually “eat His flesh and drink His blood”. They were disgusted and grumbled that this teaching is hard and who can accept it?

As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.

John 6:66

But He didn’t run after them and say, “Guys, don’t leave. You don’t understand. It’s really not as bad as you think.” Instead He just looked at His disciples and asked, “Does this cuase you to stumble?” and asked if they were going to leave too? This is when Peter affirms his faith, saying, “Where else am I to go Lord? Only you have the words of everlasting life.” (Yes Jesus did give Peter the keys but Peter continued to stumble. However he always repented.)

(I will continue this in the next post)

 

[roseofshannon]

(continued from previous post above)

So tolerance of sin or the spread of false teaching is really not a mercy, but calling people to repent is. Jesus is merciful if we repent, but He doesn’t bestow mercy on the unrepentant:

20 Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.[a] For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.

Matt 11:20-24

A few more tough quotes from Jesus:

14"Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. 15"Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.

Matt 10:14

The Cost of Following Jesus
…60But He said to him, “Allow the dead to bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim everywhere the kingdom of God.” 61Another also said, “I will follow You, Lord; but first permit me to say good-bye to those at home.” 62But Jesus said to him, “No one, after putting his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”

Luke 9:61

Jesus; A Cause of Division.
34“Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword.35 For I have come to set a man ‘against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one’s enemies will be those of his household.’
The Conditions of Discipleship.
37“Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever does not take up his cross* and follow after me is not worthy of me.

Matt 10:34

I guess He’s not always Mr. Nice Guy and really wants us to choose Him over EVERYTHING…even our families sometimes. :sad_bye:

Many will think it’s rude to challenge certain beliefs even if it’s said in the kindest possible way because they don’t want to hear it. They don’t want to repent. They have attachments they love more than God and don’t want to give them up. :dts:

Of course we are not called to be the “sin police” npatrol: and should be more concerned with the plank in our own eyes than the splinter in our brother’s. The main thing we must do though is speak the truth when false teachings are being spread.

Mother Theresa: “We have an obligation to speak the truth, but we don’t have to convince anyone.”

Peace

 

[simpleas]

Roseofshannon

Thanks for your posts, must have taken you a while to prepare.

None of what you stated stops anyone from coming to church or most important to Christ which is what I am trying to point out.
Where there is need for repentance a person has a journey to take, one which they and God are working on.

Take for example : Roman 7 :19

…18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.…

I’m sure you know all this.

I never thought of Jesus as a “nice guy” I see him as the divine human with much compassion for his creation.

Thanks again.

 

[roseofshannon]

Simpleas,
Was Jesus okay with people leaving the Church?

Did He ever call people to accountability for their sins?

What did He say was required of those who wanted to be called His followers?

Simpleas, I posted those questions to you in response to your statement:

Yep, and telling people they can and in some cases, should leave the church isn’t spreading the truth with love and mercy.

That is why I posted the scriptures above. Jesus actually did tell people many times that they can and in some cases should leave the Church, that they were really not worthy followers.

You are absolutely right, however, that conversion is a long road and we are all struggling to overcome our sins. The issue is whether or not we even consider them sins and whether or not we are actually struggling to overcome them. Many, many folks in the pews at mass are not. (As I’ve made clear in earlier posts this includes the self-righteous pharisees as well as those attached to sins of the flesh.)

So many folks are in a perpetual state of complacency, satisfied that they are nice people and all nice people go to Heaven. Frequently they are not in a state of grace and yet are still receiving communion which is also a grave sin. They see no reason to struggle as St. Paul did, and often encourage others to feel free to decide for themselves what is a sin and what is not; after all “God wouldn’t want you to suffer.” (Get behind me Satan.) This attitude spreads like a plague among the faithful and tempts them to further complacency.

When it’s suggested that we need to repent and go to confession they often get defensive rather than humble themselves. It is like in Eden when man decided that *he *would eat of the tree and decide for *himself *what is good and what is evil rather than obey God. They are seeking to recreate God in their image rather than become like clay in God’s hands so He can form them in His image.

If this is their belief, it is probably best for all involved if they find a place to worship which fits their belief system and better meets their needs.

Peace

 

[roseofshannon]

Oh, I also just came across this link:

catholic.com/quickquestions/what-are-sins-that-cry-to-heaven-for-vengeance-and-sins-against-the-holy-spirit

Sins against the Holy Spirit are mortal sins that harden a soul by its rejection of the Holy Spirit. Six sins are in this category. They are despair, presumption, envy,obstinacy in sin, final impenitence, and deliberate resistance to the known truth.

I highlighted the ones I think are pertinent to our discussion. (However I struggle with the other two from time to time. By God’s grace I have made some progress–although not as much as I would like ). The important thing is to struggle and improve. There is no standing still, you are either moving towards God or away from Him.

Blessings!

 

[simpleas]

Simpleas, I posted those questions to you in response to your statement:

That is why I posted the scriptures above. Jesus actually did tell people many times that they can and in some cases should leave the Church, that they were really not worthy followers.

You are absolutely right, however, that conversion is a long road and we are all struggling to overcome our sins. The issue is whether or not we even consider them sins and whether or not we are actually struggling to overcome them. Many, many folks in the pews at mass are not. (As I’ve made clear in earlier posts this includes the self-righteous pharisees as well as those attached to sins of the flesh.)

So many folks are in a perpetual state of complacency, satisfied that they are nice people and all nice people go to Heaven. Frequently they are not in a state of grace and yet are still receiving communion which is also a grave sin. They see no reason to struggle as St. Paul did, and often encourage others to feel free to decide for themselves what is a sin and what is not; after all “God wouldn’t want you to suffer.” (Get behind me Satan.) This attitude spreads like a plague among the faithful and tempts them to further complacency.

When it’s suggested that we need to repent and go to confession they often get defensive rather than humble themselves. It is like in Eden when man decided that *he *would eat of the tree and decide for *himself *what is good and what is evil rather than obey God. They are seeking to recreate God in their image rather than become like clay in God’s hands so He can form them in His image.

If this is their belief, it is probably best for all involved if they find a place to worship which fits their belief system and better meets their needs.

Peace

I do understand what you are saying, but I don’t think telling people to go else where is right. I mean, that would be the easy option anyway, and then there would be no struggle against sin, no hearing what they may need to hear in order to be enlightened and want to change for the better.
Maybe I’m wrong, it’s just my opinion.

Thanks.