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Sy_Noe
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Again, many leave the faith. I am one who did. But exactly again how could I leave the Church officially and not be stuck with a Catholic ID? According to the Church of course. If I so chose to do so of course.
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DaveBj
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Unless you’re among people who knew you as a Catholic, you can hang any label on yourself that you want. Nobody need ever know that you were baptized/confirmed/whatever as a Catholic
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Sy_Noe
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Actually it made a lot of sense. And I think partially because of your own experience and journey. I think you touched on something very important. That is does a person really believe? Does one believe what the Church teaches about Herself? Does one have faith in even the ECFs or in how the Church interprets their writings and how She interprets Scripture for that matter? Then even if one believes all that… Does one believe the human authorities have never strayed and that Christ never needs to reform His Church and transfer or add to the guidance? Does one believe that human understanding of God and of Scripture is set in stone, black and white, in a box, and can not evolve? As finite that every human is compared to an infinite God. It is because I am human that I like more gray, But I know others are more comfortable with black and white.
You came to believe the Church is indeed teaching the truth. But what of those who don’t share that faith and belief? Honestly I know my journey has been torture at times in my life because I’ve not had the necessary faith to be Catholic but at the same time have felt trapped by my birth if that makes any sense.
I simply don’t see how Catholics can be so sure they know the truth without the faith, the belief that they know.
But anyway yes I like Pope Francis’s message too. It’s not that the Pope is changing doctrine or teaching. But his tone it seems to me is different than previous Popes. I may have to go back to John 23 to find another. Benedict’s tone to me was more of a smaller, purer Church. Francis’s tone as you said is that he seems to want everyone with sins, warts and all. Francis seems to me to live by the old adage, “You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.” And I love that about him and also how he talks about the whole package and doesn’t limit his discussion to 1 or 2 issues. Which is what I saw in the Church for yrs. I’m just not sure enough of the faithful in the pews and lay internet forums are there with him yet. And I have no idea of course about the next Pope.
Well anyway, now I hope I haven’t rambled too much.
But thank you and peace and blessings.
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grannymh
Guest
First. I am working with a particular statement, from link in post 1. This statement is repeated in post 35. I put the proper words in bold.
"Evangelization calls us, first of all, to a personal relationship with Jesus. The Almighty God, creator of all, took on human flesh and became one of us in the person of Jesus. His teaching was simple: God loves you. What does God expect in return? Love God and love others. It seems so simple."
**Second. **Here is an interesting comment from an Ignatian Reflections e-mail.
Many of us who lived through a certain era were exposed, as children, to a form of religious education that put so much stress on loving God and neighbor that other central truth claims of the Catholic faith were either ignored entirely or given inadequate presentation. As a result, we were often bewildered and even confounded when we encountered complex arguments against Catholic dogma.
**Third. **Here is my comment. I put the area of doctrines which are being sidestepped in bold. From post 47.
“Obviously, the link in post 1 does not have room for the complete doctrinal approach to topics such as the need to lovingly seek reconciliation with the Creator following freely chosen serious sin. Unfortunately, some, not all, public writers will, in subtle ways, ignore and deny those teachings because “God loves you.” Post 17 has one explanation for this.”
**Finally. **In answer to the question: "Which doctrines are being side stepped with the statement “Love God and others”?
Primarily, the doctrines involve Mortal Sin.
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition
CCC Glossary, page 889, Mortal Sin
CCC Index, page 849, “mortal sins,” and “sacramental forgiveness of sins” Both are under the main classification of Sin(s) which begins on page 848.
Links to the Catechism
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
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Vic_Taltrees_UK
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We gotta consume what God has for us not the world.
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simpleas
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And part of the statement that I included in post 35 had this :
*There is one God, but there are many of us. And each of us is different, with different desires and needs. We have different tastes and styles. We think differently. We look different and speak different languages. We even speak the same languages differently.
So what happens when you throw out a couple of simple commandments to a world full of unique souls? Love of God and love of others becomes mighty complicated. We squabble over liturgies, worship language, and prayer forms. We believe in the same basic commandments but disagree with how they have been interpreted over the years.
For some, moral teachings are black and white and must be accepted with full and unquestioning obedience. Others struggle with the grayness of life’s many questions and believe that the answers aren’t always clear-cut.*
Which I’d hoped would open up the discussion.
So you were speaking of reconciliation being side-stepped, that is what I thought you meant.
I do agree with the statement from Ignatian Reflections that you provided.
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simpleas
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I would be inclined to think that we all have been a “cafeteria Catholic” at one time or another during our faith journey.
Taking away the word proud, as I don’t believe anyone who comes to Church and has difficulties with some of the teachings are in fact proud to think that way. We’ve all had doubts, possibly picked some things that seemed acceptable and others not so. I think most all people are genuine on their journey, or else why bother to remain in the church.
Yes I hear of some who want to change the church from the inside, I doubt that would happen.
So what does this new evangelization consist of? A new approach to how the catechism is taught, building on where it went wrong in the last 30-40 years? Is it too late for the church to catch up with the changes in thinking?
Taking away the word proud, as I don’t believe anyone who comes to Church and has difficulties with some of the teachings are in fact proud to think that way. We’ve all had doubts, possibly picked some things that seemed acceptable and others not so. I think most all people are genuine on their journey, or else why bother to remain in the church.
Yes I hear of some who want to change the church from the inside, I doubt that would happen.
So what does this new evangelization consist of? A new approach to how the catechism is taught, building on where it went wrong in the last 30-40 years? Is it too late for the church to catch up with the changes in thinking?
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grannymh
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Obviously, that is correct
That has existed since Pentecost. Perhaps it is time to examine why the Catholic Church is still in existence.
That has existed since Pentecost and will continue into the future. Perhaps it is time to understand the mission of the Holy Spirit as expressed in chapter 14, Gospel of John, and in the protocol of the Catholic Church when it comes to needing clear-cut teachings. CCC 66
Discussion is opened.
Not really. Not exactly. Reconciliation between ???
One needs to read the precise wording in post 83 which answers the question: "Which doctrines are being side stepped with the statement “Love God and others”?
This wording --“Primarily, the doctrines involve Mortal Sin” --is found at the bottom of post 83. There is a difference between Mortal Sin and reconciliation between ???
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grannymh
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“Changes” in the Catholic Church have already been hinted and/or assumed in the media, material on some sites, and other internet venues such as a public message board.
The answer to the valid question “So what does this new evangelization consist of?”
presents a probable way that Catholic teachings can be altered or denied from the inside.
I do need to point out that implying that the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition “where it went wrong”" was used in some form on CAF posts when I first landed on CAF. Fortunately, these direct attacks on the Catechism have ceased – as far as I know. Back then, there was this popular question – Should Catholics leave their brains at the Church door?
The current question “Is it too late for the church to catch up with the changes in thinking?” which is a valid question, should have readers doing some serious thinking about the value of Divine Revelation.
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simpleas
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I found this :
*So how do we fulfill this call? Recently, New York Archbishop Timothy Cardinal Dolan uttered a profound, yet simple statement: “The New Evangelization will be fulfilled with a yes and not a no.” In other words, this is our opportunity to tell the world all of the true, good and beautiful things the Catholic Church is for and not just what we are against. It’s an opportunity to propose (not impose) a new and living way to do life based on the love and truth revealed in Christ.
Every person is created with unique gifts, talents and temperaments – all of which can be used to reach others who have yet to hear or understand the good news of God’s plan of salvation in Jesus Christ. Whether you are an extrovert and like to engage others in faith conversation or are more reserved and prefer to let your life do the talking, as Catholics, we’re all called to this work, not just priests and religious.
When John Paul II uses the term “a new evangelization” he does not mean a new message. Evangelization cannot be new in its content since its very theme is always the one gospel given in Jesus Christ. But he does provide some detail about how to go about fulfilling the new evangelization in The Church in America:
The new evangelization calls for a clearly conceived, serious and well organized effort to evangelize culture in such a way that the Gospel is proclaimed in the language and in the culture of its hearers (pg. 70)… It is more necessary than ever for all the faithful to move from a faith of habit, sustained perhaps by social context alone, to a faith which is conscious and personally lived (pg. 72).*
In order to share Christ with others in their own ‘language and culture’ we need to know where people are today in their worldview. Often in Catholic circles we can presume that the world outside the Church has some understanding of our traditions or our Faith. But this couldn’t be further from the truth, which is why Christ and the Church are calling us to use ‘new methods, ardor and expression’ in our effort to bring the riches of Christ and His gospel to them.
focus.org/news-for-you/september/what-is-the-new-evangelization.html?referrer=https://www.google.co.uk/
Most comments I’ve come across regarding the catechism are not a direct attack on the catechism itself, more on how it was taught. So in regards to how the catechism is taught maybe it needs to be improved in some area’s of the world.
Thanks.
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Sy_Noe
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Ah but saying “people who leave the Church” is relevant because in fact Canon Law speaks differently.
"The Code of Canon Law currently does not recognize that someone can leave the Catholic Church. You might become a non-practicing member, but the Church’s laws consider anyone baptized Catholic to always be Catholic.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12648280&postcount=2
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mh2007
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There is so much food for the soul in this Church. It can be difficult to fully understand much of the dogma. Advantages are with those who are raised in the Church from birth - naturally they assimilate a great deal. Attending parochial school, Catholic high school, and then a Catholic university imparts many aspects of Church teachings and precepts that others must assimilate on their own, through study and reading.
I believe Jesus calls each of us to a greater relationship with Him, to glorify God. To some extent each of us must live out our calling and faith. But how we go about it will vary from person to person. It’s just not the same for everyone. The rituals are standard, but human interpretation and the human psyche will vary from person to person.
I believe Jesus calls each of us to a greater relationship with Him, to glorify God. To some extent each of us must live out our calling and faith. But how we go about it will vary from person to person. It’s just not the same for everyone. The rituals are standard, but human interpretation and the human psyche will vary from person to person.
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Dorothy
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I feel the need to mention that, at times, some who have attended all Catholic schools throughout college have not absorbed the good they could have, if they would have put Christ first in their lives. We should all prefer to have St. before our name, rather than many letters after our name. (I am definitely not knocking a good solid Catholic education and direction used to glorify God.)
We should always desire to be closer to the Lord through prayer, sacraments, and continuous renewal in Him.
Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut to the discussion!
Peace,
Dorothy
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PRmerger
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If your god doesn’t disagree with you on some level of doctrine or morality, then you are worshipping an idealized version of yourself–paraphrasing Pastor Tim KellerA very interesting article.
*Today, the accusation of being a “cafeteria Catholic” is flung around with the same zealousness as the term “heretic” was at one time. Passionate traditionalists troll online discussion boards and blogs seeking to attack women and men who do not give their full assent to each and every teaching of the Catholic Church.
These self-appointed gatekeepers of orthodoxy believe it is for the glory of God and the good of the church that all questioners be denounced and told if they don’t like it they can—and should—leave.
I have no desire to be part of the smaller, purer church envisioned by these doctrinal police. The church must keep its doors open for all of us who are on an imperfect, bumpy, and often messy journey toward holiness.*
uscatholic.org/articles/201507/proud-be-cafeteria-catholic-30253
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roseofshannon
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Scott Hahn described the two sides to the faith in this way:A very interesting article.
*Today, the accusation of being a “cafeteria Catholic” is flung around with the same zealousness as the term “heretic” was at one time. Passionate traditionalists troll online discussion boards and blogs seeking to attack women and men who do not give their full assent to each and every teaching of the Catholic Church.
These self-appointed gatekeepers of orthodoxy believe it is for the glory of God and the good of the church that all questioners be denounced and told if they don’t like it they can—and should—leave.
I have no desire to be part of the smaller, purer church envisioned by these doctrinal police. The church must keep its doors open for all of us who are on an imperfect, bumpy, and often messy journey toward holiness.*
uscatholic.org/articles/201507/proud-be-cafeteria-catholic-30253
The faith is spirit and truth like the flesh and the bone.
Some of you are like the bone. You have the truth. You are well formed and strong; but you are hard, and cold and spiritless.
Some of you are like the flesh. You have the warmth of the spirit and the love and the joy; but you are shapeless, lacking in formation, you easily conform to the world.
You need to be both: the flesh and the bone. The spirit and the truth. You need to be formed in the truth to protect you from error, and filled with the spirit so you can spread the truth with love and mercy.
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simpleas
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Yep, and telling people they can and in some cases, should leave the church isn’t spreading the truth with love and mercy.
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Vic_Taltrees_UK
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Who are referred to in the phrase “smaller, purer church envisioned by these doctrinal police”?
Are there really going to be such people?
To the best of my limited understanding, seen from off in the margins of course, Pope Benedict was merely forecasting with straightforward regret that there was probably going to be an even faster rate of drop-outs than hitherto.
Are there really going to be such people?
To the best of my limited understanding, seen from off in the margins of course, Pope Benedict was merely forecasting with straightforward regret that there was probably going to be an even faster rate of drop-outs than hitherto.
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PRmerger
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:sad_yes:
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simpleas
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I think some people on the internet, I personally have never come across anyone face to face who would tell people to leave the church, it must be much easier when one hides behind a screen.
I doubt there would ever been a smaller purer church, people can imagine that’s how it would be, but they would be fooling themselves.
Was it Pope Benedict that invented the phase “cafeteria catholic”?
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simpleas
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Here’s another perspective :
huffingtonpost.com/rea-nolan-martin/proud-to-be-a-cafeteria-c_b_4676955.html
huffingtonpost.com/rea-nolan-martin/proud-to-be-a-cafeteria-c_b_4676955.html
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