Proud to be a cafeteria Catholic

[Sy_Noe]

Such a Catholic is objectively a heretic. Heresy is an excommunicable offense. It is very possible that some “cafeteria Catholics” have excommunicated themselves. You are emphasizing that “cafeteria Catholics” remain Catholic. While that may be true, the focus of the issue is the potential loss of salvation by such people.

As I mentioned in my previous post, the term “cafeteria Catholic” is a modern euphemism for “heretic”.

Except the Church teaches even the excommunicated are Catholic. And if people run further away after being labeled heretics, the risk is that places them further from reconciliation at some point and thus as you believe, puts their salvation at risk. I find it hard to believe any good, faithful Catholic would see that to be a good thing.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Such a Catholic is objectively a heretic. Heresy is an excommunicable offense. It is very possible that some “cafeteria Catholics” have excommunicated themselves. You are emphasizing that “cafeteria Catholics” remain Catholic. While that may be true, the focus of the issue is the potential loss of salvation by such people.

As I mentioned in my previous post, the term “cafeteria Catholic” is a modern euphemism for “heretic”.

 

[porthos11]

Ah, but what KIND of Catholic? Certainly not devout or completely observant.

Well, we could call them what they REALLY are: heretics.

But that wouldn’t be very nice in today’s PC world now, would it?

Cafeteria Catholics are not merely the “questioning” ones. One can question and seek understanding all in good faith. No, cafeteria Catholics persist in a obstinate denial of something that the Church has declared something to be held, be it in matters of contraception, gay marriage, ordination of women or whatever. It’s one thing to ask “why?” It’s quite another to say “women should be ordained and I don’t care what the old men in Rome say.”

 

[Sy_Noe]

Bye folks. Consider me one you pushed further away.

 

[grannymh]

Bye folks. Consider me one you pushed further away.

Please go back to post 17.

 

[DaveBj]

Bye folks. Consider me one you pushed further away.

If you allow someone to get between you and the truth, which one of the two of you is closer to the truth?

 

[CradleJourney]

Well, we could call them what they REALLY are: heretics.

But that wouldn’t be very nice in today’s PC world now, would it?

Cafeteria Catholics are not merely the “questioning” ones. One can question and seek understanding all in good faith. No, cafeteria Catholics persist in a obstinate denial of something that the Church has declared something to be held, be it in matters of contraception, gay marriage, ordination of women or whatever. It’s one thing to ask “why?” It’s quite another to say “women should be ordained and I don’t care what the old men in Rome say.”

Curious - at what point, in your opinion, does it become persistent, obstinate denial?

I ask, because it takes a great deal of time, effort and focus to truly comprehend and research each Catholic teaching, to meditate upon it, to seek guidance by the Spirit, to contemplate how it must be incorporated into our lives. I gently suggest that for the average person, they hardly have time to make sure they have matching, clean socks - let alone give dedicated focus to the spiritual. So for the majority, I suspect they don’t even consider the ordination of women for example - until/unless someone asks - and then they fall back to their personal default (based on their upbringing, education or lack thereof, personal experience with priests/laity/female ministers of other denominations/etc.) - and answer with their view. It’s most likely the one that makes utter and complete sense to them at the time - and attacking that view tends to only make them more adamant about it.

So are they in persistent, obstinate denial - or simply have never truly looked at the subject, something our culture (including parish life) does not tend to encourage us to do?

Of course there are extreme militants on every side - but branding someone as one, would seem to create a worse problem than it solves, imho.

BTW - note my user name. What I was adamant about at age 10 was completely opposite what I was adamant about at age 16 - and didn’t conform to Church theology until my twenties … and that was only on ONE issue.

Why don’t I go join/start another Church? Because it’d be wrong. Why don’t I fully accept wholeheartedly every teaching - because I’m a unique human who is not “wired” into black/white thinking - on anything! LOL! (If you ever want, I could do a 3 hour debate on the pros and cons of toilet paper - something most people don’t seem to stop and think about )

I know I am on a journey - one that will probably take me a lifetime. But that’s okay because the Lord drew me out of the muck, put my feet upon rock and is steadying my steps - and has placed a new song in my mouth. (Ps 40)

 

[grannymh]

Thanks again for all posts, I’ll continue here, I won’t respond to posts as I just wanted to read what others thought of the article.

BTW the article is not by me…

But I did find this part of it agreeable

Evangelization calls us, first of all, to a personal relationship with Jesus. The Almighty God, creator of all, took on human flesh and became one of us in the person of Jesus. His teaching was simple: God loves you. What does God expect in return? Love God and love others. It seems so simple.

Thank you for all your good comments in post 35.

It is this quote from the link in post 1 that needs a bit of clarification.
“Evangelization calls us, first of all, to a personal relationship with Jesus. The Almighty God, creator of all, took on human flesh and became one of us in the person of Jesus. His teaching was simple: God loves you. What does God expect in return? Love God and love others. It seems so simple.”

In answer to the question “What does God expect in return?” It is obvious why the answer “Love God and love others” seems so simple. It sidesteps a ton of Catholic doctrines.

Obviously, the link in post 1 does not have room for the complete doctrinal approach to topics such as the need to lovingly seek reconciliation with the Creator following freely chosen serious sin. Unfortunately, some, not all, public writers will, in subtle ways, ignore and deny those teachings because “God loves you.” Post 17 has one explanation for this.

 

[Sy_Noe]

If you allow someone to get between you and the truth, which one of the two of you is closer to the truth?

I’m not sure only because I believe it takes at least some degree of faith to get to the point at which you believe you know the truth.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Thanks again for all posts, I’ll continue here, I won’t respond to posts as I just wanted to read what others thought of the article.

BTW the article is not by me…

But I did find this part of it agreeable

*Evangelization calls us, first of all, to a personal relationship with Jesus. The Almighty God, creator of all, took on human flesh and became one of us in the person of Jesus. His teaching was simple: God loves you. What does God expect in return? Love God and love others. It seems so simple.

There is one God, but there are many of us. And each of us is different, with different desires and needs. We have different tastes and styles. We think differently. We look different and speak different languages. We even speak the same languages differently.

So what happens when you throw out a couple of simple commandments to a world full of unique souls? Love of God and love of others becomes mighty complicated. We squabble over liturgies, worship language, and prayer forms. We believe in the same basic commandments but disagree with how they have been interpreted over the years.

For some, moral teachings are black and white and must be accepted with full and unquestioning obedience. Others struggle with the grayness of life’s many questions and believe that the answers aren’t always clear-cut.*

• See more at: uscatholic.org/articles/201507/proud-be-cafeteria-catholic-30253#sthash.OPCUzNAZ.dpuf

The way I’ve always thought of the church and the people within it was that we all have our own journey to take. I never knew what a cafeteria catholic was as I’d never come across it until I searched for information online. I didn’t think as a Catholic we were in the game of naming or labeling anyone, Catholic or not. I only knew the term lapsed Catholic.

I’m not sure way anyone would actually think that any person should leave the church because they have struggles with some teaching, like a few others said, they are not about to make a stand and shout about difficult life situations, and demand that the church change to suit everyone else’s agenda.

It sort of became clear when I heard this Sundays Gospel, the washing of hands ritual that the jewish people observed before eating. They asked Jesus about it, why didn’t his disciples wash hands before eating, that’s what they had always done. Of course Jesus didn’t say they need not wash their hands anymore, but that many washed hands and paid only lip service to God, didn’t really even think about what they were doing when they washed hands. But perhaps the ones that didn’t wash hands, were doing what God wanted.

I don’t mean this to sound like we need not observe any of the rituals we do, of course if a person wished to become a Catholic they need to learn the faith, what is believed and practice the faith etc. But then that is where the journey starts, even for cradle Catholics who leave the church, because they wanted to go off and live their life how they wanted and not how someone else says they should. Many years later they come back to the church and are welcomed, why do we think we should not welcome everyone within the church then?

I understand there have been some who have left the church and continued to practice the faith in their own way, so they have really made the point that they are taking a stand and trying to change the church.

To me, every person who is at mass is there of there own freewill once they are of the age to understand many things, and they are just as part of the church as I am in my own struggle, happiness, and obedience.

There is only a Catholic IMO.

Simpleas, I join Granny in thanking you for your goodness here. And others who have been charitable with kind words on this thread. Though Catholicism may not be for me and I get turned off more so by some things I see and experience here, I do know not all of what I experience and see going on here on CAF reflects upon or represents the many good and kind Catholics in parishes in the real world. I’ve been there. Peace be with you and with all who walk with our Lord, not immersed in words coated with vinegar but with kindness shining thru from within. As we journey on this road called faith, God bless each of you on yours.

 

[roseofshannon]

I’m not sure way anyone would actually think that any person should leave the church because they have struggles with some teaching, like a few others said, they are not about to make a stand and shout about difficult life situations, and demand that the church change to suit everyone else’s agenda…

I don’t mean this to sound like we need not observe any of the rituals we do, of course if a person wished to become a Catholic they need to learn the faith, what is believed and practice the faith etc. But then that is where the journey starts, even for cradle Catholics who leave the church, because they wanted to go off and live their life how they wanted and not how someone else says they should. Many years later they come back to the church and are welcomed, why do we think we should not welcome everyone within the church then?

I understand there have been some who have left the church and continued to practice the faith in their own way, so they have really made the point that they are taking a stand and trying to change the church…

…There is only a Catholic IMO.

I understand where you are coming from and the feelings that are provoked when labels are thrown around. It’s a very delicate balancing act we are discussing here, and both sides feel labelled and misunderstood.

The ones who have learned their faith well and want the fullness of the teachings to be preserved in the church feel frightened when it seems to be falling away. They are tempted to pride and contempt because they know more and it’s very easy to fall into the sin of looking down on others who are less knowledgeable. They are frustrated that many of the priests are afraid to preach some of the more demanding teachings, many of which came directly from the mouth of Jesus Himself. So they rail about those who are “cafeteria Catholics” and how “those people” are ruining the church and people get offended.

There are a few reasons well meaning, loving Catholics have difficulties with particular precepts of the Church. They may have never been given an adequate explanation for why the Church holds a particularly difficult precept. Jesus said that to whom much is given, much will be expected. This does mean that we may be very surprised who ends up in Heaven, and we cannot judge those who haven’t been adequately taught.

However, sometimes they are too attached to a particular sin they don’t want to give up, or they are afraid of offending someone close to them and it seems the loving thing to do would be to drop the “rules thing” and just love.

But this begs the question of what love is? Truly loving someone is wanting them to spend eternity in Heaven with you. If your child doesn’t want to get his shot at the doctor is it more loving to let them have their way or to insist it’s really in their best interest and then do your best to explain it’s because you don’t want them to die? Of course it’s going to be easier for the child to listen if they are explained to in words they can understand, and this is done with love and not with name calling etc.

I’m not sure way anyone would actually think that any person should leave the church because they have struggles with some teaching, like a few others said, they are not about to make a stand and shout about difficult life situations, and demand that the church change to suit everyone else’s agenda.

No one needs to leave the church because they have struggles with some teachings. You are right that it is a learning process. However, there really are many, many people including some priests and nuns who are standing and shouting and demanding the Church changes to suit their agenda. You will witness this when the Pope comes to the US this fall.

Many years later they come back to the church and are welcomed, why do we think we should not welcome everyone within the church then?

Pope John Paul II explained that those within the Church need to be evangelized now because of so many years of poor catechesis. So yes they are welcome, but it’s difficult because after growing up Catholic all those years they think they know what the Church teaches. Unfortunately they really never learned the fullness of the faith at all. Often they learned only of God’s unfathomable mercy, which is wonderful indeed, but they didn’t learn of God’s justice. That part is uncomfortable to come to terms with and many priests and schools just left it out of sermons or teachings. However, you cannot appreciate God’s mercy if you do not appreciate his justice. Without justice, there is nothing to forgive. Without justice we cannot appreciate what horrors Jesus has saved us from. God is both: All Just and All Merciful

So I think some of these labels have become a kind of short-hand for Catholics who are trying to discuss this current situation. Some are unkind in their intentions, but many are well meaning and not intending to hurt feelings. Of course tact and diplomacy skills can go a long way, and many people are lacking.

Please accept my apology to those of you who have been hurt by this. Please forgive those of us who have not spoken the truth in love. I hope you can forgive and ignore the more uncharitable among us and take this challenge of learning and discovering the *why’s *behind some of the more difficult teachings. All of the Church’s teachings are meant only to lovingly help you and never to harm you.

Peace

 

[porthos11]

Curious - at what point, in your opinion, does it become persistent, obstinate denial?

I ask, because it takes a great deal of time, effort and focus to truly comprehend and research each Catholic teaching, to meditate upon it, to seek guidance by the Spirit, to contemplate how it must be incorporated into our lives. I gently suggest that for the average person, they hardly have time to make sure they have matching, clean socks - let alone give dedicated focus to the spiritual. So for the majority, I suspect they don’t even consider the ordination of women for example - until/unless someone asks - and then they fall back to their personal default (based on their upbringing, education or lack thereof, personal experience with priests/laity/female ministers of other denominations/etc.) - and answer with their view. It’s most likely the one that makes utter and complete sense to them at the time - and attacking that view tends to only make them more adamant about it.

So are they in persistent, obstinate denial - or simply have never truly looked at the subject, something our culture (including parish life) does not tend to encourage us to do?

Of course there are extreme militants on every side - but branding someone as one, would seem to create a worse problem than it solves, imho.

BTW - note my user name. What I was adamant about at age 10 was completely opposite what I was adamant about at age 16 - and didn’t conform to Church theology until my twenties … and that was only on ONE issue.

Why don’t I go join/start another Church? Because it’d be wrong. Why don’t I fully accept wholeheartedly every teaching - because I’m a unique human who is not “wired” into black/white thinking - on anything! LOL! (If you ever want, I could do a 3 hour debate on the pros and cons of toilet paper - something most people don’t seem to stop and think about )

I know I am on a journey - one that will probably take me a lifetime. But that’s okay because the Lord drew me out of the muck, put my feet upon rock and is steadying my steps - and has placed a new song in my mouth. (Ps 40)

It becomes obstinate when he becomes aware that any given teaching has been declared or defined as to be held. Lack of understanding does not excuse one from providing religious assent or the assent of faith. This is now where faith seeking understanding comes in. One can remain questioning, or even skeptical, but never disbelieving once the Church has spoken.

 

[Mike_Dye]

It doesn’t fall on deaf ears that only God knows the degree of warmth, the fire, the burning for Him inside another’s heart.

" For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead" Jas. Ch. 2, vs. 26

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I think that sitting on the fence when it comes to faith gives these cafeteria Catholics a sense of balance - belief that they can be Catholic the way the secular world finds it acceptable. These days objections to the teachings have mostly to do with genital issues.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

I recently included myself in “cafeteria Catholics” because I realise my need to keep coming back and work my way steadily through the menu at many sittings (and subsequently eat “everything on the menu”).

Perhaps heretic is a kindly label (I am finding it genuinely thought provoking) and burning them was itself a heresy or near-heresy? (I realise some were civil insurgents at the same time - and I don’t include St Joan in the latter.)

I was confirmed at age 9 but wth hardly any catechesis. Just as I got interested in the faith it got dumbed down. Our family were also Teilhard victims. Peculiar goings-on often accompanied my periods of return near the Church.

I feel the benefit of all your prayer currently.

 

[simpleas]

Ah, but what KIND of Catholic? Certainly not devout or completely observant.

Can I ask you if you are devout or completely observant everyday of your life? I mean not just towards the church, but in the world around you? (loving neighbour as yourself)

I think you may say no, because you know you are not perfect in every area of your life.

Isn’t that why we go to church, because we sin. We might sometimes think I’ve sinned, but I don’t do xy and z like some other people do, but the fact remains we all sin. Hence why I believe any Catholic is just as welcome to come before God, in whatever state their soul maybe in…That’s how I’ve learnt from my experience of the Bible, Our Church etc.

BTW I’m not attacking you by asking this, I’m curious as to how you view yourself and others?

 

[simpleas]

Curious - at what point, in your opinion, does it become persistent, obstinate denial?

I ask, because it takes a great deal of time, effort and focus to truly comprehend and research each Catholic teaching, to meditate upon it, to seek guidance by the Spirit, to contemplate how it must be incorporated into our lives. I gently suggest that for the average person, they hardly have time to make sure they have matching, clean socks - let alone give dedicated focus to the spiritual. So for the majority, I suspect they don’t even consider the ordination of women for example - until/unless someone asks - and then they fall back to their personal default (based on their upbringing, education or lack thereof, personal experience with priests/laity/female ministers of other denominations/etc.) - and answer with their view. It’s most likely the one that makes utter and complete sense to them at the time - and attacking that view tends to only make them more adamant about it.

So are they in persistent, obstinate denial - or simply have never truly looked at the subject, something our culture (including parish life) does not tend to encourage us to do?

Of course there are extreme militants on every side - but branding someone as one, would seem to create a worse problem than it solves, imho.

BTW - note my user name. What I was adamant about at age 10 was completely opposite what I was adamant about at age 16 - and didn’t conform to Church theology until my twenties … and that was only on ONE issue.

Why don’t I go join/start another Church? Because it’d be wrong. Why don’t I fully accept wholeheartedly every teaching - because I’m a unique human who is not “wired” into black/white thinking - on anything! LOL! (If you ever want, I could do a 3 hour debate on the pros and cons of toilet paper - something most people don’t seem to stop and think about )

I know I am on a journey - one that will probably take me a lifetime. But that’s okay because the Lord drew me out of the muck, put my feet upon rock and is steadying my steps - and has placed a new song in my mouth. (Ps 40)

This is sensible thinking when one ponders about people and our church

 

[simpleas]

Thank you for all your good comments in post 35.

It is this quote from the link in post 1 that needs a bit of clarification.
“Evangelization calls us, first of all, to a personal relationship with Jesus. The Almighty God, creator of all, took on human flesh and became one of us in the person of Jesus. His teaching was simple: God loves you. What does God expect in return? Love God and love others. It seems so simple.”

In answer to the question “What does God expect in return?” It is obvious why the answer “Love God and love others” seems so simple. It sidesteps a ton of Catholic doctrines.

Obviously, the link in post 1 does not have room for the complete doctrinal approach to topics such as the need to lovingly seek reconciliation with the Creator following freely chosen serious sin. Unfortunately, some, not all, public writers will, in subtle ways, ignore and deny those teachings because “God loves you.” Post 17 has one explanation for this.

The love God and others statement came from Jesus himself as we know. You may have a point about the idea that we love God and others without the need to reconcile with God. I don’t know if it’s entirely impossible to love God and neighbour all the time and therefore there would be no need to reconcile and part take in the Eucharist.
So as it may not be obvious to people of other faiths, it is clearly obvious to the child or adult that confession needs to be practiced along side, practicing loving God and neighbour.

So I don’t think it deliberately ignores that Catholic doctrine. You may see it differently.

What has concerned me some is that hardly any homilies cover how important confession is before part taking of communion. Of course at the start of mass we ask for forgiveness of our sins (not that some priests give us 2 seconds to reflect on sin) before we are blessed.

Thanks.

 

[simpleas]

Simpleas, I join Granny in thanking you for your goodness here. And others who have been charitable with kind words on this thread. Though Catholicism may not be for me and I get turned off more so by some things I see and experience here, I do know not all of what I experience and see going on here on CAF reflects upon or represents the many good and kind Catholics in parishes in the real world. I’ve been there. Peace be with you and with all who walk with our Lord, not immersed in words coated with vinegar but with kindness shining thru from within. As we journey on this road called faith, God bless each of you on yours.

Thank you.

I stumbled across the article when I was searching around trying to piece together some information related to another blog which was asking this question :

On our way out? (meaning the church)

Here is alittle piece from the start :

So what has been happening to the Catholic Church in this country and in Western society as a whole? Anecdotally, I encounter a large number of Catholic grandparents who tell me that few of their children, let alone their grandchildren, are regularly practising their religion.

I wondered too why the majority of my early childhood friends never practiced the faith, in fact everyone seemed to disappear from the parish when they turned teens.

I hear alot of reference to the changes v2 brought about. But I don’t know if that was the cause, or something else like vast education in other religion for a start.

Please do not let other people make you feel you do not belong. I nearly fell into that trap.
It’s not great to be told your wrong on nearly everything you think or say and you do feel like giving up.

Blessings to you and yours.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I recently included myself in “cafeteria Catholics” because I realise my need to keep coming back and work my way steadily through the menu at many sittings (and subsequently eat “everything on the menu”).

I feel the benefit of all your prayer currently.

I would not call you a cafeteria Catholic because you seem to be humbly seeking God and are not so proud to think your way is God’s way. This is the attitude we all must have. Cafeteria Catholicism is marked by arrogance and refusal to take the faith seriously. It is just another option for them, a consumer item in a consumerist society.