Prove it!

[Dokimas]

The NT records adults coming to Jesus.

It was not until those adults had kids that they wanted to bring them to the saving blood of Jesus, to which we are joined in baptism.

They all understood that baptism replaced circumcision as the entrance Rite into the new kingdom.

Correct on your first statement.​

If an infant must be baptized, seems you have a low opinion of God’s mercy and grace.​

I disagree with your baptism/circumcision theology. BTW, Jesus had both done to Him. I wonder how that fits your understanding here.

 

[Dokimas]

Yes, to that extent, they have retained the Apostolic faith contained in the Catholic Church.

Or they ratain the correct understanding of the Bible and it has little to do with the CC, no offense meant to the CC.​

BTW, the CC has some wonderful core beliefs. I’ve been to several CC masses. As I’ve observed those around me, I couldn’t help come to the conclusion that I got more out of the mass than most of the Catholics in the church.

 

[Dokimas]

I think you are very uneducated about the history of the Christian faith. Do you know the origin of the title given to our blessed Mother of Theotokos?

how come, if the triune Godhead is so central to our faith, we can;t find the word Trinity in Scripture?

Why don’t we find the hypostatic union?

Where is the list of books that belongs in the NT?

Just because my understanding of the history of the church including where the CC comes in is different than yours, doesn’t make me uneducated.​

If the Bible is correct that there is but One God and God is manifested in the Scriptures to be the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, then the term ‘Trinity’ doesn’t have to be in the Bible. As you call your church CC for short, it’s easier to say Trinity that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.​

Jesus is both God and Man at the same time so just apply my comment about the Trinity to this one. It’s quite simple isn’t it?​

I look at the beginning of my NKJV and I find the books that belong in the NT.

 

[Dokimas]

Hmmm. So, when did the Church go off the rails?

What caused Jesus to become so weak and disinterested in the Church He founded that He chose to go back on His promise, and left them orphaned? What made Him decide not to come to them, after all?

when did the HS become so powerless that He could not any longer lead the Church into all Truth?

As for the CC going of the rails, as you put it, you’ll have to dig out that info for yourself. It’s not my concern.​

As for you other questions they are so silly I’m not inclided to comment more than calling them silly.

 

[PRmerger]

-What extra-Biblical beliefs are you speaking about?

One is the canon of Scripture itself. Since Scripture does not tell us which books/letters are to be included in the Bible, the fact that you accept Genesis through Revelation is extra biblical.

Now, since there are over 40,000 different denominations or Christian beliefs, each claiming to have been inspired by the Holy Spirit and each reading the very same Scriptures (ok, plus or minus 7 books), I would have no idea exactly what you personally believe…

BUT, I’m going to guess that you believe at least one more of these **extra-biblical **tradtions:

-There will be no more Apostles.
-Public revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle.
-The canon of scripture is closed.
-Scripture interprets itself or “Scripture interprets Scripture”.
-Altar calls
-Wednesday evening prayer services.

None of those are ever documented in the Bible. :sad_yes:

What say you, Dokimas? Do you agree you believe in some things in your Christian systemology that are not in the Bible?

 

[guanophore]

So the Holy Spirit either wasn’t actually left by Jesus to lead His followers like Jesus said or the Holy Spirit was unable to do the job if the pope lead’s the church of Jesus of Nazareth. Is this new teaching? I can’t open my mind around anything like this.

Jesus made these promises to His Church, not to individuals. Individuals can benefit from the promises only to the extent that they are in unity with His One Body.

The fact that Jesus put others in authority over the flock does not mean He has abdicated. He works through people. Why would it be difficult for you to imagine that God works through people?​

• One beautiful thing about God’s Holy Bible, we don’t have to trace church leadership back through the centuries, we can go back to the source, Jesus, directly. Remember there is One Mediator between God and us, the Man Jesus.

How does receiving the Bible mean you don’t have to trace the origins of it? How can you be confident that what you have received is valid, if you don’t know where it came from? How do you know it is any more valid than the Book of Mormon?

Jesus is the Source, and we can trace the origin of the Bible back to it’s beginnings. It is a puzzle why someone would not want to do this.

 

[Dokimas]

Right. Better to assume that families have no children!

Well, you don’t start with a belief and then make the Bible say what you want it to. I’ve shared many verses that show baptism was for those who repented. Therefore, because babies can’t repent, the logical conclusion is that families that have all its members get baptized are families that don’t have young children.

 

[PRmerger]

As I’ve observed those around me, I couldn’t help come to the conclusion that I got more out of the mass than most of the Catholics in the church.

Oh, I really would not judge any of the Catholics sitting in the pews beside you, Dokimas. Most of them have no idea whatsoever what’s going on in the Divine Liturgy.

In fact, if we really understood what was happening during the Mass we’d all fall dead on our feet at the magnificence of it all. I think poet Annie Dillard said that we all should be wearing crash helmets at Mass, not pretty little dainty Sunday hats. (She, of course, was speaking of a time when women actually wore pretty little dainty Sunday hats).

 

[PRmerger]

• I’ve shared many verses that show baptism was for those who repented. Therefore, because babies can’t repent, the logical conclusion is that families that have all its members get baptized are families that don’t have young children.

One cannot repent of Original Sin, Dokimas. :whacky:

And, since they have no actual sin, babies have nothing of which they need to repent prior to baptism.

 

[Dokimas]

One is the canon of Scripture itself. Since Scripture does not tell us which books/letters are to be included in the Bible, the fact that you accept Genesis through Revelation is extra biblical.

Now, since there are over 40,000 different denominations or Christian beliefs, each claiming to have been inspired by the Holy Spirit and each reading the very same Scriptures (ok, plus or minus 7 books), I would have no idea exactly what you personally believe…

BUT, I’m going to guess that you believe at least one more of these **extra-biblical **tradtions:

-There will be no more Apostles.
-Public revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle.
-The canon of scripture is closed.
-Scripture interprets itself or “Scripture interprets Scripture”.
-Altar calls
-Wednesday evening prayer services.

None of those are ever documented in the Bible. :sad_yes:

What say you, Dokimas? Do you agree you believe in some things in your Christian systemology that are not in the Bible?

So the Bible is extra-Biblical. Hmmmmmmm.?.?​

I don’t think the pope is an apostle. I’m not sure about any of those who claim to be apostles now-a-days. People are so easily lead astry.​

I think God gives revelation today; it will NEVER contradict what He’s already said in His Word.​

The last time I looked there are no new books in my Bible. I’m sure there are many books written by believers that have been inspired by God but are not new Scripture.​

Peter, Paul, etc preached to the public in public places and many responded. Three thousand on the Day of Pentacost in Acts 2. Quite an altar call, wouldn’t you say? I don’t think they are necessary, however.​

We’re called to pray together. Why not Wednesday? Check this out youtube.com/watch?v=U79YOKje2zU​

The Holy Spirit interprets the Scriptures.

 

[Dokimas]

Oh, I really would not judge any of the Catholics sitting in the pews beside you, Dokimas. Most of them have no idea whatsoever what’s going on in the Divine Liturgy.

In fact, if we really understood what was happening during the Mass we’d all fall dead on our feet at the magnificence of it all. I think poet Annie Dillard said that we all should be wearing crash helmets at Mass, not pretty little dainty Sunday hats. (She, of course, was speaking of a time when women actually wore pretty little dainty Sunday hats).

I did not judge anyone. You, however, made quite a judgmental statement about most of your brothers and sisters.

 

[Dokimas]

One cannot repent of Original Sin, Dokimas. :whacky:

And, since they have no actual sin, babies have nothing of which they need to repent prior to baptism.

Baptize your babies if you want to follow your tradition. I’ll follow the verses I posted earlier on this issue.

 

[PRmerger]

So the Bible is extra-Biblical. Hmmmmmmm.?.?

Can you give me a chapter and verse that tells us to include Genesis in the Bible? If not, then the fact that you believe it is, well, extra-biblical.

Do you have a chapter and verse that tells you that the Gospel of Thomas is not inspired? If not, then the fact that you believe it is not inspired is, …you guessed it[SIGN]…extra-biblical! [/SIGN]-

I don’t think the pope is an apostle. I’m not sure about any of those who claim to be apostles now-a-days.

Do you have a verse to show us that there are to be no more apostles, Dokimas? If not, the fact that you believe it is [SIGN]extra biblical!
-[/SIGN]

Peter, Paul, etc preached to the public in public places and many responded. Three thousand on the Day of Pentacost in Acts 2. Quite an altar call, wouldn’t you say? I don’t think they are necessary, however.

Ok, then the fact that you don’t think they are necessary is [SIGN]extra biblical! [/SIGN]​

We’re called to pray together. Why not Wednesday?

Well, as a Catholic I’d certainly be okay with it. But, if you claim you don’t have any extra biblical traditions, then you ought not participate in a Wednesday night prayer service–'cause [SIGN]it’s not in the bible.[/SIGN]

 

[Deconi]

–
I guess you hope your Sacred Traditions are from God.

I guess you share the same hope, since Sacred Tradition gave you what you are arguing from!

1st century to early 4thcentury … no Bible!

Who says what you have is valid?!!
Answer = The Catholic Church …and she can also examine and verify how ‘deficient’ a copy it is!..if it is.

How?
She compiled it, FROM Sacred Tradition!

 

[PRmerger]

I did not judge anyone. You, however, made quite a judgmental statement about most of your brothers and sisters.

LOL! That’s sounds like a judgment of ME!!

 

[guanophore]

Infants can’t learn doctrine thus can’t be disciples, can they?

They learn about it just as well as Jesus had, when His parents took Him to the temple to be circumcised.

He was made a member of the Covenant based upon the faith of His parents.

The Apostles taught that baptism replaced circumcision as the entrance rite into the Kingdom.

 

[Dokimas]

PRmerger, justify your beliefs any way you want to. Use me to make yourself feel better is you want to; it bothers me not one bit.​

Believe Mary never had more children if you want; that’s truly extra-Biblical because the Bible say Jesus had sibblings no matter how you spin it.

Matthew 1:
24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife,
25 and did not know her** till ** she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.

 

[guanophore]

Baptism saves?

Yes.

• It doesn’t matter what is believed?

The Catholic Church does not baptize anyone without a profession of faith.

-What a person does in life doesn’t matter?

If a person choose to reject God after they were baptized, they will fail to be joined with their inheritance in heaven.​

• I thought the CC teaches salvation by faith and works? At least that’s what some of you have suggested in the thread about grace alone.

no, but I am glad that you misunderstood.

The NT was written by Catholics, for Catholics. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic.

When it says “you are saved by grace, through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast”, it says this because this is the Catholic faith.​

• BTW, I don’t believe salvation is earned; it is given to all who believes correctly about God’s plan of salvation.

It is a good thing this is not true. Otherwise, people would have to have “correct understanding of doctrine” prior to being saved.

That would mean Apollos was not really saved!

 

[Dokimas]

They learn about it just as well as Jesus had, when His parents took Him to the temple to be circumcised.

He was made a member of the Covenant based upon the faith of His parents.

The Apostles taught that baptism replaced circumcision as the entrance rite into the Kingdom.

I don’t mean to be silly here, but it seems to me the only thing Jesus, the 8 day old, learned when He was circumcised was that it hurts.​

BTW, did circumcism do for Jesus what baptism does for your children?​

Please show me a verse that tells you that the apostles taught baptism replaces circumcism as the entrance rite into the Kingdom. Someone already brough up one verse and I pointed out that the circumcism mentioned in context was the circumcism of the heart not of the flesh and only someone can chose to have their heart circumcised.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t mean to be silly here, but it seems to me the only thing Jesus, the 8 day old, learned when He was circumcised was that it hurts.

Ok. But that’s not in the Bible, so now you’ve just professed *another *extra-biblical belief you have.