Prove it!

[guanophore]

-I guess you hope your Sacred Traditions are from God.

Not really. Jesus has testified to them by Himself, His own Name. Therefore I have confident assurance. If that is the kind of “hope” then, yes.

 

[guanophore]

Correct on your first statement.​

If an infant must be baptized, seems you have a low opinion of God’s mercy and grace.​

I disagree with your baptism/circumcision theology. BTW, Jesus had both done to Him. I wonder how that fits your understanding here.

Baptism is grist for another thread. It is one of my favorite topics, tho, so I am happy to pursue it.

Jesus said that those who believe and are baptized will be saved. He did not say He would not, or could not, save the unbaptized. We follow His commandments because we love Him, and we trust in His very great and precious promises.

Our opinion of God’s grace is that it is so free, those who have faith on behalf of another who cannot can facilitate His saving grace coming to them, just as the Centurian did for his servant.

 

[guanophore]

–
BTW, the CC has some wonderful core beliefs. I’ve been to several CC masses. As I’ve observed those around me, I couldn’t help come to the conclusion that I got more out of the mass than most of the Catholics in the church.

This is a sad truth. If Catholics knew what they had, they would never leave it. I know I would not have.

 

[Dokimas]

Ok. But that’s not in the Bible, so now you’ve just professed *another *extra-biblical belief you have.

I’ll bet you amuse yourself. You surely amuse me, so we might have something in common.

 

[Dokimas]

Baptism is grist for another thread. It is one of my favorite topics, tho, so I am happy to pursue it.

Jesus said that those who believe and are baptized will be saved. He did not say He would not, or could not, save the unbaptized. We follow His commandments because we love Him, and we trust in His very great and precious promises.

Our opinion of God’s grace is that it is so free, those who have faith on behalf of another who cannot can facilitate His saving grace coming to them, just as the Centurian did for his servant.

Were does it say that Jesus said to baptize infants? Be careful PR is watching and she/he might tell you your belief is extra-Biblical.

 

[Dokimas]

Not really. Jesus has testified to them by Himself, His own Name. Therefore I have confident assurance. If that is the kind of “hope” then, yes.

I Mary’s perpetual virginity a sacred tradition? If so, where did Jesus testify to this?

 

[Dokimas]

Did Jesus die for everyone?​

Does one have to be baptized to go to Heaven?​

 

[PRmerger]

Were does it say that Jesus said to baptize infants? Be careful PR is watching and she/he might tell you your belief is extra-Biblical.

I note the sarcasm here, Dokimas. But do you not note the irony in this as well?

You are stating someone “might tell you your belief is extra-Biblical” *as if it’s an accusation! *

Don’t you find the irony in that–as it’s your entire paradigm of objecting to the CC, yet you really, really, really don’t like it when someone uses it on you.

One other word besides sarcasm and irony that also comes to mind with this post is…hypocrisy.

 

[Dokimas]

Guanophore: The Catholic Church does not baptize anyone without a profession of faith.

Can babies profess faith?

 

[PRmerger]

Did Jesus die for everyone?

Yes!​

Does one have to be baptized to go to Heaven?​

No!

Examples:

• the Good Thief, St. Dismas (according to Catholic tradition)
• the Holy Innocents who were murdered by Herod (the Catholic Church honors them with their very own feast day, yet they were never baptized.)

 

[Dokimas]

I note the sarcasm here, Dokimas. But do you not note the irony in this as well?
QUOTE]​

What I note is the humor. I amuse myself sometimes.

 

[PRmerger]

PRmerger;6052528:

I note the sarcasm here, Dokimas. But do you not note the irony in this as well?
QUOTE]​

What I note is the humor. I amuse myself sometimes.

Yet I also sense a lot of frustration. I believe that you are seeing the Truth, and it’s getting under your skin a bit.

You realize that you have no cause to object to extra Biblical beliefs, for you hold many of your own.

You also realize that you have no Scripture verse to support your “core beliefs” paradigm.

 

[Dokimas]

I note the sarcasm here, Dokimas. But do you not note the irony in this as well?

You are stating someone “might tell you your belief is extra-Biblical” *as if it’s an accusation! *

Don’t you find the irony in that–as it’s your entire paradigm of objecting to the CC, yet you really, really, really don’t like it when someone uses it on you.

One other word besides sarcasm and irony that also comes to mind with this post is…hypocrisy.

I really, really, really don’t care and find it humorous. I have stated I could be wrong about what I believe. Can the CC be wrong? Because I know and have stated I could be wrong there is no hypocrisy. Can you say the same for you, in the light that you think as long as you believe what the CC teaches, you can’t be wrong?

 

[PRmerger]

I have stated I could be wrong about what I believe.

No, Dokimas. Not *could be wrong. * Will be wrong. That’s what fallible means.

Unless, of course, you claim infalliblity, which I am certain you do not!

But the definition of fallible–which you are–is that [SIGN]you are going to be wrong. [/SIGN]

And the hypocrisy lies in your holding extra biblical beliefs yourself (quite a few it seems!), yet making accusations about the CC holding them, as if it’s wrong for us to do it, yet quite justifiable for you to hold your traditions.

 

[Dokimas]

Dokimas;6052557:

Yet I also sense a lot of frustration. I believe that you are seeing the Truth, and it’s getting under your skin a bit.

You realize that you have no cause to object to extra Biblical beliefs, for you hold many of your own.

You also realize that you have no Scripture verse to support your “core beliefs” paradigm.

As I’ve stated before, I am secure (not in a salvation sense) in what I believe. Your attempt ot shake beliefs aren’t working and you psychoanalysis of me is incorrect.​

My pray is that the Truth changes me into the image of God’s Dear Son more and more and more each day.​

Core Beliefs:

Acts 4:12The Catholic Church does not baptize anyone without a profession of faith.​

Romans 10:
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
12 ¶ For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”​

Acts 16:31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”​

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.​

Acts 8:36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”

(Notice a prerequisite for the eunuch to be baptized.)​

Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:​

Joh 3:15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.​

Need I go on? I could show you what the epistles tell us about Jesus so well know the correct Jesus to call on for salvation.

 

[Dokimas]

No, Dokimas. Not *could be wrong. * Will be wrong. That’s what fallible means.

Unless, of course, you claim infalliblity, which I am certain you do not!

But the definition of fallible–which you are–is that [SIGN]you are going to be wrong. [/SIGN]

And the hypocrisy lies in your holding extra biblical beliefs yourself (quite a few it seems!), yet making accusations about the CC holding them, as if it’s wrong for us to do it, yet quite justifiable for you to hold your traditions.

Here’s where you’re wrong: I have no problem with the CC holding ‘extra-Biblical’ beliefs as long as they (the beliefs) don’t contradict the Bible and as long as the CC member know that the extra-Biblical beliefs could be incorrect. If you can’t admit this then it is you that may be hypocritical.

 

[PRmerger]

Core Beliefs:

Acts 4:12The Catholic Church does not baptize anyone without a profession of faith.​

Romans 10:
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
12 ¶ For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”​

Acts 16:31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”​

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.​

Acts 8:36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”

(Notice a prerequisite for the eunuch to be baptized.)​

Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:​

Joh 3:15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.​

Need I go on? I could show you what the epistles tell us about Jesus so well know the correct Jesus to call on for salvation.

Again, thanks for your list of what’s an essential or core belief.

But, what I asked for was Scripture verses that tell you: “this is a core belief.”

What would you say to someone who claims that Malachi 1:11 is a core belief? Since there’s no verse that tells us if it is or not, we can only rely on your extra-biblical tradition that says it’s not.

 

[Dokimas]

Again, thanks for your list of what’s an essential or core belief.

But, what I asked for was Scripture verses that tell you: “this is a core belief.”

What would you say to someone who claims that Malachi 1:11 is a core belief? Since there’s no verse that tells us if it is or not, we can only rely on your extra-biblical tradition that says it’s not.

Let me play your game: So you don’t like those verses quoted that speak to the issue of what it takes to be saved.​

BTW, you’re welcome.

 

[PRmerger]

Let me play your game: So you don’t like those verses quoted that speak to the issue of what it takes to be saved.​

BTW, you’re welcome.

I didn’t say that. I love each and every one of those verses. I just don’t know where it says that they’re core beliefs.

And, did you notice your core beliefs didn’t mention–not even once–LOVE?

That is simply mind-boggling that a Christian would not include love in his core beliefs.

I just am saying that you’re using something extra-biblical to determine what’s a core belief. [SIGN1]For the bible does not state at all–NOT EVEN ONCE!–what is a core belief.[/SIGN1]

 

[Dokimas]

PRmerger: Ever loyal to the Magisterium…ever questioning

If you’re loyal the the teaching of the magisterium what is it you’re questioning?