Prove it!

[FidesSpesCarita]

This entire thread has made me chuckle (when it hasnt made me grind my teeth) because all the arguments have been hashed out already in the past. The Church fathers already dealt with all this. Christ has already told us his will, through sacred tradition and the bible. The CC teaches the same thing it taught Universally from the Pentecost until today. The finer points have been fleshed out to allow for greater understanding, but nothing has changed.

Matthew 21:2-3 sum it up. We are all sinners, but the TEACHINGS are held by the Holy Spirit and are therefore infallible.

To say that I know better than those who “sit on moses seat” (out of context, but only to make a point) is the ultimate pinnacle (poor grammar, but again, to make a point) of pride. I do not know better the qwill of God than the Holy Spirit which Christ has promised toi his Apostles and his Church. I WILL NOT assume that. I will humbly and faithfully follow what I am taught, all the while striving to understand it and always comparing it to those things which I know to be true. Where my understanding diverges from what the Magisterium of the CC teaches, it is I who am wrong, not the Church guided by the Holy Spirit!!! How can God be wrong when he guides people?

Oh well… I know this post will be seen as lacking in Christian Charity, but correcting those with misconceptions is a spiritual act of mercy, so I just hope that I can keep a good attitude, do my best to be polite(always difficult for me), and keep living in the light of Gods One, Holy, Catholic (and I do mean universal), and Apostolic Church.

With love,

FSC

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Indeed, and once one realizes as the eunich did when Phillip, asked if he understood what he was reading, proceeded to explain scripture to him.

I may be mistaken here, I think there is a misunderstanding in the debate itself :Of infallability and inerrancy.

Example: Bible cannot be infallible, it is a static item as all books are. Therefore the bible is inerrant not infallible, as many think.

So an entity had to be established by Jesus, sending His Holy Spirit to guide the principles that Jesus set down; and that is the CC. If this were not true then the Holy Spirit is teaching, a whole lot of different communities diffrent things. This is simply unacceptable as far as truth is concerned.

2+2=4 this is truth in Math. Religion certainly is more important so must also be consise would’nt it ?

My 2cents worth.
Peace and God Bless
onenow1

X2 Thanks for summarizing a very good point.

 

[Dokimas]

So an entity had to be established by Jesus, sending His Holy Spirit to guide the principles that Jesus set down; and that is the CC. If this were not true then the Holy Spirit is teaching, a whole lot of different communities diffrent things. This is simply unacceptable as far as truth is concerned.

My 2cents worth.
Peace and God Bless
onenow1

Here’s an example of why I have a problem with your understanding of the church Jesus founded: When I was growing up the CC (according to you then by extension Jesus) said it was a sin to eat meat on Friday. Sometime after the 60s (I guess; I’m not sure not being catholic myself) the CC (then I guess Jesus by extension) said it was no longer a sin to eat meat on Friday. Passages like Romans 14 tell me that eating meat is not a sin ever unless it causes a weaker member to stumble. I have a problem with an authority that says they speak infallibly for Jesus and change their mind about a sin issue.​

 

[Dokimas]

2+2=4 this is truth in Math. Religion certainly is more important so must also be consise would’nt it ?

My 2cents worth.
Peace and God Bless
onenow1

I love math and I appreciate consiseness. I don’t accept consiseness when called infallible or inerrant at the expence of Bible accuracy.

 

[PRmerger]

Here’s an example of why I have a problem with your understanding of the church Jesus founded: When I was growing up the CC (according to you then by extension Jesus) said it was a sin to eat meat on Friday. Sometime after the 60s (I guess; I’m not sure not being catholic myself) the CC (then I guess Jesus by extension) said it was no longer a sin to eat meat on Friday. Passages like Romans 14 tell me that eating meat is not a sin ever unless it causes a weaker member to stumble. I have a problem with an authority that says they speak infallibly for Jesus and change their mind about a sin issue.​

You are misunderstanding Discipline and Doctrine/Dogma, Dokimas (hey! I love alliteration! )

Discipline is not infallible.

Just like with your children: you may have allowed your 16 yr old daughter to drive when she turned 16, but then the next child you say…“No, you’re not ready yet even if you are 16.”

As the person who holds authority, you can change that discipline. However, the precept does not change: you will be allowed to drive when we feel you are ready.

 

[PRmerger]

Passages like Romans 14 tell me that eating meat is not a sin ever unless it causes a weaker member to stumble.

The CC has never said it is the eating of meat that’s a sin. Eating meat is morally neutral–neither objectively good nor bad.

It was the act of disobedience that’s considered sinful

I have a problem with an authority that says they speak infallibly for Jesus and change their mind about a sin issue.​

Again, just so I know we’re on the same page: the CC was never speaking infallibly when it imposed the discipline of not eating meat on Fridays.

 

[onenow1]

Here’s an example of why I have a problem with your understanding of the church Jesus founded: When I was growing up the CC (according to you then by extension Jesus) said it was a sin to eat meat on Friday. Sometime after the 60s (I guess; I’m not sure not being catholic myself) the CC (then I guess Jesus by extension) said it was no longer a sin to eat meat on Friday. Passages like Romans 14 tell me that eating meat is not a sin ever unless it causes a weaker member to stumble. I have a problem with an authority that says they speak infallibly for Jesus and change their mind about a sin issue.​

Not eating meat was a discipline not doctrine. The reason for change should be clear; For example in the 1950’s it would have been a sacrifice to not eat meat, today food in any form is abondant so it would’nt be much of a discipline in learning sacrifice. Nowadays. maybe fish for some,.

Peace onenow1

 

[tweetymom]

Here’s an example of why I have a problem with your understanding of the church Jesus founded: When I was growing up the CC (according to you then by extension Jesus) said it was a sin to eat meat on Friday. Sometime after the 60s (I guess; I’m not sure not being catholic myself) the CC (then I guess Jesus by extension) said it was no longer a sin to eat meat on Friday. Passages like Romans 14 tell me that eating meat is not a sin ever unless it causes a weaker member to stumble. I have a problem with an authority that says they speak infallibly for Jesus and change their mind about a sin issue.​

Exactly and if everything was and is ordained by Jesus how can these things change?

 

[StevenFrancis]

What is the quickest, easiest way to prove to a Baptist that the Catholic church is the true church Jesus Christ founded, and is still the true church?

To pray for them to the Holy Spirit. If they are uninspired toward the truth, they can not believe it. Only the Holy Spirit inspires. If they are completely resolute in their way, you can pass on the scriptures from John, and letters of St. Paul; you can give them a catechism, but they will not hear, or read them through Catholic eyes without the assistance of the Spirt. Besides laying out the information, pray that they are deemed invincibly ignorant until the Spirit provides them inspiration, and don’t ever lose hope. Be glad in your heart that you proclamed the truth as you are asked to do by the Lord, and know that Lord will work on them also, in his time.

Blessings,

Steven

 

[Dokimas]

The CC has never said it is the eating of meat that’s a sin. Eating meat is morally neutral–neither objectively good nor bad.

It was the act of disobedience that’s considered sinful

Again, just so I know we’re on the same page: the CC was never speaking infallibly when it imposed the discipline of not eating meat on Fridays.

I agree it’s not really a meat issue but telling someone they must not eat it or they’ll be sinning.​

I hope you apply your logic equally to the man who spilled his seed disobediently. It was a disobedience issue, not a birth control issue.​

If the CC was not speaking infallibly about a sin issue that wasn’t a sin, how do I know when they’re really speaking for God? That’s my original point.

 

[Dokimas]

Exactly and if everything was and is ordained by Jesus how can these things change?

Fair question, IMO.

 

[Dokimas]

Not eating meat was a discipline not doctrine. The reason for change should be clear; For example in the 1950’s it would have been a sacrifice to not eat meat, today food in any form is abondant so it would’nt be much of a discipline in learning sacrifice. Nowadays. maybe fish for some,.

Peace onenow1

Who is any church to tell a believer how to be disciplined in a way not spoken in the Bible? The Bible tells us we should fast, it tells us we should pray. I can’t remember a verse that tells us we’re sinning if we don’t fast or pray.

 

[Dokimas]

You are misunderstanding Discipline and Doctrine/Dogma, Dokimas (hey! I love alliteration! )

Discipline is not infallible.

Just like with your children: you may have allowed your 16 yr old daughter to drive when she turned 16, but then the next child you say…“No, you’re not ready yet even if you are 16.”

As the person who holds authority, you can change that discipline. However, the precept does not change: you will be allowed to drive when we feel you are ready.

Wait a minute … Jesus died for sins; are you telling us Jesus died for the sins of a catholic person in the 1950s for the sin of eating meat on Friday? I hope you’re not saying that!!! If you’re not saying that , good, but then I’m back to my original problem with any church making up rules not in the Bible. Actually the meat issue is spoken of in the Bible opposite than the CC in the 1950s.

 

[Des]

It is not a deceptive posting I am a Catholic but do not agree with all the CC teaches. And you are very disrespectful!!!

Catholics must consent to the Dogmas of the Church. You don’t. Stop pretending like you are a Catholic when your heart is clearly protestant.

Even Catholics who struggle with the Dogmas make an attempt to come to terms with them or just believe without understanding. You on the other hand have decided to follow made made doctrines, stating them as fact.

And if one is to read any 10 posts of yours, it’s easy to know exactly who’s side you’re on when all you do is bicker with Catholics and get an “Amen” from protestants.

 

[Dokimas]

All this conversation because I’ve been told I need the CC as my authority so I can know properly and have issues settled. Are you understanding yet why I feel I can’t place myself under such an authority?

 

[Dokimas]

Catholics must consent to the Dogmas of the Church. You don’t. Stop pretending like you are a Catholic when your heart is clearly protestant.

And if one is to read any 10 posts of yours, it’s easy to know exactly who’s side you’re on when all you do is bicker with Catholics and get an “Amen” from protestants.

Des, why don’t you mind your own business.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Who is any church to tell a believer how to be disciplined in a way not spoken in the Bible? The Bible tells us we should fast, it tells us we should pray. I can’t remember a verse that tells us we’re sinning if we don’t fast or pray.

How is it not a sin to disobey the Word of God? Is that not what sin is, disobedience to the will of God?

The Church set up fast days, IMO, as a way that all Christians could be together in their fasting. They did the same with Prayer in the LOTH. The second example is not a mandatory, as some of the fast days are, but they are both ways that EVERY member can come together and do something for Christ out of love for Christ.

To use your mantra, “Context, context, context”…

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Des, why don’t you mind your own business.

She is correct. And she is minding her business. We must all correct those members of our family who are in error. It is the only just and moral thing to do. We want all of our brothers and sisters 9biological or not) to enter the kingdom of Heaven.

Sorry, but its the truth.

 

[Dokimas]

How is it not a sin to disobey the Word of God? Is that not what sin is, disobedience to the will of God?

The Church set up fast days, IMO, as a way that all Christians could be together in their fasting. They did the same with Prayer in the LOTH. The second example is not a mandatory, as some of the fast days are, but they are both ways that EVERY member can come together and do something for Christ out of love for Christ.

To use your mantra, “Context, context, context”…

If the setting up of fast days by the church is Biblical, why’d it stop? Is it sinning or causing its people to sin?​

Sure disobeying the Bible is sin if the specific thing is for all of us to follow.

 

[Dokimas]

She is correct. And she is minding her business. We must all correct those members of our family who are in error. It is the only just and moral thing to do. We want all of our brothers and sisters 9biological or not) to enter the kingdom of Heaven.

Sorry, but its the truth.

Des is saying she is not in your family, is she not?