Prove it!

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Ok I see what you are trying to say. Now lets start from Matthew 16:13-20 This is when Peter says Jesus is the Messiah. This can also be found in Mark 8:27-30 and Luke 9:18-20.
V.13-17>The disciples answered Jesus’ question with the common view, that Jesus was one of the great prophets come back to life. Peter confessed Jesus as divine and as the promised and long-awaited Messiah.
V.18>The rock on which Jesus would build his church has been identified as
  1. Jesus himself {his work of salvation by dying for us on the cross}
  2. Peter {the first great leader in the church at Jeerusalem}
  3. The confession of faith that Peter gave and that all subsequent true beleivers would give. It seems most likely that the rock refers to Peter as the leader of the church {for his function, not necessarily his character.
    Later Peter reminds Christians that they are the church built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ as the corner stone All believers are joined into his church by faith in Jesus Christ as Savior, the same faith that Peter expressed.
    A church is a group of people. Jesus lives in us and showes himself to a watching world through us.
    V.19>The meaning of this verse has been a subject of debate for centuries. Some say the keys represent the authority to carry out church discipline, legislation, and administration
    {Matthew 18:15-18} while others say the keys give the authority to announce the forgiveness of sins {John 20:23}. Still others say the keys may abe the opportunity to bring people to the Kingdom of Heaven by presenting them with the message of salvation found in God’s word {Acts 15:7-9} The religious leaders thought they held the keys of the Kingdom, and they tried to shut some people out. To all who believe in Christ and obeys his words, the Kingdom doors are swung wide open.
    V.20>Jesus warned the disciples not to publicize Peter’s confession because they did not your fully understand the kind of Messiah he had come to be. They needed to come to a full understanding of Jesus and their mission as disciples before they could proclaim it to others in a way that would not cause a revellion. They woild have a difficult time understanding what Jesus came to do until his earthly mission was complete.
siah 22:15-25 to get the full picture. Shebna, a high court steward or offical, was just as materialistic as the rest of the people in Jerusalem {22:13} He may have been in the group favoring an alliance with foreigners, thus ignoring Isaiah’s advice. The Lord revealed that Shebna would lose his position and be replaced by Eliakim {@@:20} Eliakim would be the “tent stake” driven firmly in place {22:23} Unfortunately Eliakim too would fall {22:25}
rev Lets see if these will help you from Scripture Cathloic

Peter is the Rock on which the Church is Built
Mark 3:16; John 1:42 – Jesus renames Simon “Kepha” in Aramaic which literally means “rock.” This was an extraordinary thing for Jesus to do, because “rock” was not even a name in Jesus’ time. Jesus did this, not to give Simon a strange name, but to identify his new status among the apostles. When God changes a person’s name, He changes their status.

Gen. 17:5; 32:28; 2 Kings 23:34; Acts 9:4; 13:9 - for example, in these verses, we see that God changes the following people’s names and, as a result, they become special agents of God: Abram to Abraham; Jacob to Israel, Eliakim to Jehoiakim, Saul to Paul.

2 Sam. 22:2-3, 32, 47; 23:3; Psalm 18:2,31,46; 19:4; 28:1; 42:9; 62:2,6,7; 89:26; 94:22; 144:1-2 - in these verses, God is also called “rock.” Hence, from these verses, non-Catholics often argue that God, and not Peter, is the rock that Jesus is referring to in Matt. 16:18. This argument not only ignores the plain meaning of the applicable texts, but also assumes words used in Scripture can only have one meaning. This, of course, is not true. For example:

1 Cor. 3:11 - Jesus is called the only foundation of the Church, and yet in Eph. 2:20, the apostles are called the foundation of the Church. Similarly, in 1 Peter 2:25, Jesus is called the Shepherd of the flock, but in Acts 20:28, the apostles are called the shepherds of the flock. These verses show that there are multiple metaphors for the Church, and that words used by the inspired writers of Scripture can have various meanings. Catholics agree that God is the rock of the Church, but this does not mean He cannot confer this distinction upon Peter as well, to facilitate the unity He desires for the Church.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus said in Aramaic, you are “Kepha” and on this “Kepha” I will build my Church. In Aramaic, “kepha” means a massive stone, and “evna” means little pebble. Some non-Catholics argue that, because the Greek word for rock is “petra”, that “Petros” actually means “a small rock”, and therefore Jesus was attempting to diminish Peter right after blessing him by calling him a small rock. Not only is this nonsensical in the context of Jesus’ blessing of Peter, Jesus was speaking Aramaic and used “Kepha,” not “evna.” Using Petros to translate Kepha was done simply to reflect the masculine noun of Peter.

Moreover, if the translator wanted to identify Peter as the “small rock,” he would have used “lithos” which means a little pebble in Greek. Also, Petros and petra were synonyms at the time the Gospel was written, so any attempt to distinguish the two words is inconsequential. Thus, Jesus called Peter the massive rock, not the little pebble, on which He would build the Church. (You don’t even need Matt. 16:18 to prove Peter is the rock because Jesus renamed Simon “rock” in Mark 3:16 and John 1:42!).
 
rev Lets see if these will help you from Scripture Cathloic

Peter is the Rock on which the Church is Built
Mark 3:16; John 1:42 – Jesus renames Simon “Kepha” in Aramaic which literally means “rock.” This was an extraordinary thing for Jesus to do, because “rock” was not even a name in Jesus’ time. Jesus did this, not to give Simon a strange name, but to identify his new status among the apostles. When God changes a person’s name, He changes their status.

Gen. 17:5; 32:28; 2 Kings 23:34; Acts 9:4; 13:9 - for example, in these verses, we see that God changes the following people’s names and, as a result, they become special agents of God: Abram to Abraham; Jacob to Israel, Eliakim to Jehoiakim, Saul to Paul.

2 Sam. 22:2-3, 32, 47; 23:3; Psalm 18:2,31,46; 19:4; 28:1; 42:9; 62:2,6,7; 89:26; 94:22; 144:1-2 - in these verses, God is also called “rock.” Hence, from these verses, non-Catholics often argue that God, and not Peter, is the rock that Jesus is referring to in Matt. 16:18. This argument not only ignores the plain meaning of the applicable texts, but also assumes words used in Scripture can only have one meaning. This, of course, is not true. For example:

1 Cor. 3:11 - Jesus is called the only foundation of the Church, and yet in Eph. 2:20, the apostles are called the foundation of the Church. Similarly, in 1 Peter 2:25, Jesus is called the Shepherd of the flock, but in Acts 20:28, the apostles are called the shepherds of the flock. These verses show that there are multiple metaphors for the Church, and that words used by the inspired writers of Scripture can have various meanings. Catholics agree that God is the rock of the Church, but this does not mean He cannot confer this distinction upon Peter as well, to facilitate the unity He desires for the Church.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus said in Aramaic, you are “Kepha” and on this “Kepha” I will build my Church. In Aramaic, “kepha” means a massive stone, and “evna” means little pebble. Some non-Catholics argue that, because the Greek word for rock is “petra”, that “Petros” actually means “a small rock”, and therefore Jesus was attempting to diminish Peter right after blessing him by calling him a small rock. Not only is this nonsensical in the context of Jesus’ blessing of Peter, Jesus was speaking Aramaic and used “Kepha,” not “evna.” Using Petros to translate Kepha was done simply to reflect the masculine noun of Peter.

Moreover, if the translator wanted to identify Peter as the “small rock,” he would have used “lithos” which means a little pebble in Greek. Also, Petros and petra were synonyms at the time the Gospel was written, so any attempt to distinguish the two words is inconsequential. Thus, Jesus called Peter the massive rock, not the little pebble, on which He would build the Church. (You don’t even need Matt. 16:18 to prove Peter is the rock because Jesus renamed Simon “rock” in Mark 3:16 and John 1:42!).
Thanks Bill I’ll research this. I do see what you are saying.
 
What is the quickest, easiest way to prove to a Baptist that the Catholic church is the true church Jesus Christ founded, and is still the true church?
I personally believe that this is an impossible task when the one we want to convince is not looking or searching for the truth or at least some answers to perhaps a question or two…

I believe a close study of history can at least shed some light on issues that they or others may have never thought of or questioned.
 
I personally believe that this is an impossible task when the one we want to convince is not looking or searching for the truth or at least some answers to perhaps a question or two…

I believe a close study of history can at least shed some light on issues that they or others may have never thought of or questioned.

There are many on this board that fits your description above; maybe all of us to one degree or another.​

Which slant on history do you suggest we look at?
 

There are many on this board that fits your description above; maybe all of us to one degree or another.​

Which slant on history do you suggest we look at?
I would suggest that we start with one question and then lets agree to have a conversation about it.

Without knowing your religious beliefs I will leave it to you to ask me a question if you feel up to it.
 
I would suggest that we start with one question and then lets agree to have a conversation about it.

Without knowing your religious beliefs I will leave it to you to ask me a question if you feel up to it.

For the sake of classification, I am a non-Catholic Christian.​

You mentioned a study of history. I asked which slant on history are you speaking about? We’d be nieve if we thought the history we like to read (because it promotes what we think is true) isn’t slanted. History from a non-Catholic perspective is slanted as is history from a Catholic perspective. That’s one reason I think we should ‘wrestle’ with the Bible and it alone (of course using commentaries, for a point of reference, as needed).
 

For the sake of classification, I am a non-Catholic Christian.​

You mentioned a study of history. I asked which slant on history are you speaking about? We’d be nieve if we thought the history we like to read (because it promotes what we think is true) isn’t slanted. History from a non-Catholic perspective is slanted as is history from a Catholic perspective. That’s one reason I think we should ‘wrestle’ with the Bible and it alone (of course using commentaries, for a point of reference, as needed).
Okay

By sticking to the bible alone application - what is your view of baptism?
  1. What takes place?
  2. Do you allow infants to be baptized?
 
Okay

By sticking to the bible alone application - what is your view of baptism?
  1. What takes place?
  2. Do you allow infants to be baptized?

My view of baptism is that believers are the ones that should be baptised. Infants aren’t believers so they should not be baptised. You may point me to the passages where a family got baptized like in Acts 16. You’d have to prove there were infants in that story for the point to be valid. I think the Bible teaches infant dedication. As a Baby, Jesus was dedicated to the Lord by His parents.​

I think the Bible isn’t 100% clear on whether immersion is always and only the way. There are people who can’t be immersed because of a hole in their throat.​

Now for my question: Which slanted history version (of course not including the Bible because I’m sure we’d agree it is accurate)?
 
What is the quickest, easiest way to prove to a Baptist that the Catholic church is the true church Jesus Christ founded, and is still the true church?
I have a question for you. where in the Bible does it say that the Catholic church is the " true" church. I have seen NO specific church named. Only that the only way you can get to heaven is to “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For one believes with the heart and so is justified and one confessed with the mouth and so is saved. For the scripture says, No one who believes in Him will be put to sham. For there is no distinction between Hebrew and Greek. The same Lord is Lord of all enriching all who call upon Him. For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” "Romans 10:9-12 (Catholic Bible)
Nowhere does it say that we are saved by a church, but only through Jesus Christ, by His birth, crusifixion, and resurection. He is the way, the truth and the life. A church cannot save you.
 
You are welcome my good man,and I hope all is well with you and your
Things are pretty good except my car is falling apart. First the transmission is going out, then the turnsignals won’t work, and now the water pump went out. But other than that God is being good to me. Family doing fine thanks for asking. I never asked are you married and have a family?
 
Things are pretty good except my car is falling apart. First the transmission is going out, then the turnsignals won’t work, and now the water pump went out. But other than that God is being good to me. Family doing fine thanks for asking. I never asked are you married and have a family?
Well yes I do have a family I have 10 grad kids and 2 step grand kid 4 years old. The 10 are from 3 to 13 so I have a very nice family.
God has been good to me also. When I get up in the AM and things are not going just right I just say to my self well Jesus love me and that make my day
 
Well yes I do have a family I have 10 grad kids and 2 step grand kid 4 years old. The 10 are from 3 to 13 so I have a very nice family.
God has been good to me also. When I get up in the AM and things are not going just right I just say to my self well Jesus love me and that make my day
I have 5 children 3 girls ages 31,26,30 and 2 boys ages 14, 9. I have 7 grandchildren 4 of which are my step grandchildren ages ranging from 9 months to 13 years old. I love to be around them both children and grandchildren they give me great joy to my life.
 
I think the big family reunions we had were the best times in my life! My mother carefully planned a special one before she died which helped to knit the clan together. If only all the tribes of the earth would do this!

O ye friends of God! Be kind to all peoples and nations, have love for all of them, exert yourselves to purify the hearts as much as you can, and bestow abundant effort in rejoicing the souls. Be ye a sprinkling of rain to every meadow and a water of life to every tree. Be ye as fragrant musk to every nostril and a soul-refreshing breeze to every invalid. Be ye salutary water to every thirsty one, a wise guide to every one led astray, an affectionate father or mother to every orphan, and, in the utmost joy and fragrance, a son or daughter to every one bent with age.
~'Abdu’l-Bahá
 
I think the big family reunions we had were the best times in my life! My mother carefully planned a special one before she died which helped to knit the clan together. If only all the tribes of the earth would do this!

O ye friends of God! Be kind to all peoples and nations, have love for all of them, exert yourselves to purify the hearts as much as you can, and bestow abundant effort in rejoicing the souls. Be ye a sprinkling of rain to every meadow and a water of life to every tree. Be ye as fragrant musk to every nostril and a soul-refreshing breeze to every invalid. Be ye salutary water to every thirsty one, a wise guide to every one led astray, an affectionate father or mother to every orphan, and, in the utmost joy and fragrance, a son or daughter to every one bent with age.
~'Abdu’l-Bahá
Sorry to here that about your mother. You are right if only all the tribes of the earth would do that this world would be a much better place. God Bless
 
Things are pretty good except my car is falling apart. First the transmission is going out, then the turnsignals won’t work, and now the water pump went out. But other than that God is being good to me. Family doing fine thanks for asking. I never asked are you married and have a family?
Actually God is “being good to you” in everything he allows to you go through, including your car falling apart. God allows us to suffer so that we have an opportunity to conform ourselves even more to Christ, and suffering gives us a greater opportunity to prove our love and faithfulness to Him.
 
Actually God is “being good to you” in everything he allows to you go through, including your car falling apart. God allows us to suffer so that we have an opportunity to conform ourselves even more to Christ, and suffering gives us a greater opportunity to prove our love and faithfulness to Him.
I agree with you but how much can one person take. In 2001 the doctor said I have parkensons. Then after loosing everything, car, house, savings etc…we became homeless for about 9 months, this is tough with a family and being sick without any meds. I went into a mild depression. Then things started looking up, got disability, 2 years later got insurance, got a place to live, got a car, then we lost the car during hurricane Ike when a 2 story brick wall fell on it and totaled it. Only had liability insurance so we got nothing for it. Our church bought us the car that is now falling apart after having it for exactly one year, but I thank God for them getting us the car to have for that one year, so now we’re back to square one with a car, but a friend of our who was facing homelessness with her son came an lived with us for a while and her daughter has a car she is willing to sell us. So yes God is being good and I with my family have endured plenty but I never lost my faith in God and I keep telling myself that God will see us through and things will get better when he sees fit. But at the same time I wonder how much more can one take to prove his love for him. This ain’t all there is plenty more that has happened to us and still is happening but like I said I never lost faith.
 
Thanks Bill I’ll research this. I do see what you are saying.
Hi Rinnie…I am glad to see you got some scripture, however, when Jesus refered to Peter as the rock it was in minor, or non capital R. The only time in the Bible that the Rock is refered to in capital letters in whten it refers to Jesus. Your friend is right. there are many peoples names that Jesus, or God changed. The other name changes have nothing to do with this however.

They began refering to Jesus as the Rock, for instance in Deuteronomy 32:4…Speaking back in the old Testament about…“He is the Rock (Jesus), His work is perfect: for all his ways are judgements: a God of thruth and without inequity, just and right is he.” Also in Deuterono,y 32:15…" But Jeshurun waxed fat and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation. Peter cannot and could not offer salvation. Peter is NEVER mentioned in the same sentence with salvation. Peter was a good man and a martyr for the faith, as where almost all the apostles martyred. There is NO salvation outside of Christ Jesus.

another example. 2 Samuel 23: 3…" The God of Israel said, the Rock (God,Jesus) of Israel spoke tome. He that ruleth over men must be just ruling in the fear of God."

Another…1 Corinthians 10:4…“And did all drink the same spiritual drink; for they drand of that spiritual Rock, the followed them; and the Rock was Christ.”

Peter was the teacher of the Jews. If God, or Jesus had meant at that point that Peter was to be the head of the church, it would have been for the Jews, because Paul, who was Saul, was the one called for the Gentiles. We are the Gentiles…The Catholic church is not Jewish. At no time did Jesus take anything away from Peter, but he was not elevated above Jesus, or on and equal playing court! That is why Jesus came to shed His blood for us, establish his church. I know one thing for sure, no one is going to ask if you where a Catholic, Baptist, Luthren, Penticostal, etc., but you will have had to be born again. Jesus did not say you chould be born again, He said you Must be born again. John 3: 2-13… There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; The same came to Jesus by night and said unto him, Rabbi; we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him,Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus said to him, how can a man bae born when he is old, can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb and be born? Jesus answered. Verily verily I say into the, Except a man be born of water AND of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kindom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flexh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit…" finish reading John 3: I stoped at verse 8. I said all of that to simply say, it is not a church that saves you or condems you to hell. It what we do with the Word of God.

I am not putting anything down, however I am not a novice to the Catholic church…I was raised in it, loved it. I left for one reason, well 2 reasons. They kept changing the rules, and as far as I could tell the word NEVER changes as I said before, and sin is sin, oh yeas and if you leave the church you go to hell…not…God cannot look on sin, that is why when Jesus took on our sins when He was on the cross God turned His head away. Can you imagin how that made Jesus feel…He knew he would do it, but He still did it for us. There is no greater love ever shown us than that. Now because of that, and that only, we can now get into heaven…Christ is the Head of the church. I rerally enjoy talking with you. Do you ever get in the Bible yourself and check things out. Don’t ever just take someones word for things, including mine…Check it out yourself. It is not a book you will not understand. I promise the more you read it the more it comes alive. Its a great read!!!..God bless, keep in touch
 
Thanks Bill I’ll research this. I do see what you are saying.
Sorry I thought this was from Rinnie. You can keep in touch too. One of my best friends was a Jesuit. Super person, and my Husband was a pastor for years.
 
I have a question for you. where in the Bible does it say that the Catholic church is the " true" church. I have seen NO specific church named. Only that the only way you can get to heaven is to “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For one believes with the heart and so is justified and one confessed with the mouth and so is saved. For the scripture says, No one who believes in Him will be put to sham. For there is no distinction between Hebrew and Greek. The same Lord is Lord of all enriching all who call upon Him. For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” "Romans 10:9-12 (Catholic Bible)
Nowhere does it say that we are saved by a church, but only through Jesus Christ, by His birth, crusifixion, and resurection. He is the way, the truth and the life. A church cannot save you.
Aside from the biblical evidence already put forth in this and various other threads, I give you this:

Matthew 7
21 Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord,” shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?”
23 And then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.”

The Catholic Church can show you that she has persevered in doing the will of our Father in heaven. Just look at the bible to see one of the fruits of our Church.

Show me the fruits of the your Church in doing the will of God.

Dominus vobiscum,

FSC

P.S. I apologize if this response is more… aggressive… than it needs to be. I tend to be quite a bit too “in your face” when I talk about some things (religion and politics to be precise), and I pray often that God allow me to live more in a “Caritas in Veritate” style than the way I have been. So please don’t take offense as none is intended.
 
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