Prove it!

[rev_kevin]

He is The Vicar of Christ, appointed by Him when He built The Church on Peter and GAVE him the KEYS of the Kingdom. Peter, Linus,…Clement…Cregory…Pius…John Paul 2, Ben16.

That’s the lineage that Christ created.

The Original Poster is the one who posed the question for the thread.

The Pope, therefore, as Vicar of Christ, is the visible head of Christ’s kingdom on earth. the church, of which Christ himself is the visible head. {Answer wisely. by Martin J Scott}

According to the will of Christ, all its members profess the same faith, have the same worshsip and sacraments, and are united under the one and same visible head, the Pope.
{Father Smith instructs Jackson, by John F. Noll and Lester J. Fallow}

The church is often compared to the human body, Christ is always the head.
What part of the body is the Pope?
How does one get the idea of a sub-head into the body?
Why is the Pope called “Pope,” Holy Father," “Vicor of Christ,” “Sovereign Pontiff?”

 

[guanophore]

I was surprised that only one person responded to my post on the subject of that Marian prayer from the Pope and the titles given to Mary that parallel titles given to Christ.

Perhaps I could get some Catholic responses this time to the prayer of this previous Pope:

This is the Mary of Scripture: “The handmaiden of the Lord.” This is the Mary of Scripture: “I have rejoiced in God, my Saviour.” But here is the Mary of** Roman Catholic theology**, from the prayer recited by Pope Pius XII at the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiori in Rome on the opening of the Marian Year:

I think this might be the core of your misunderstanding. First of all, devotion to Mary is not “Roman”. It is found in all the apostolic faiths, including those not in unity with Rome.

Second, this prayer is not “Roman Catholic Theology”. On the contrary, it is love poetry, similar to what might be found in the Song of Songs. If one listens to any love songs and love poetry, it is easy to see that the beloved is elevated, sometimes to a surrealistic state. It is inappropriate to read someones love poetry and equate that to “theology”.

I want to point out that in the opening verses of the Biblical record concerning Mary, and in every verse of Scripture which is applied to her, never once is she ever removed from the category of the “handmaiden of the Lord” who rejoiced in the God of her salvation.

I am sure he was not making any effort to create his poem from the pages of the gospel accounts. Is that where you start, when writing a love poem?

Yet today, after nineteen centuries, I make bold to say that the Roman Catholic Church and its theologians have unhesitatingly applied to her sacred titles alone given in the Bible to God the Father Himself and to Jesus Christ, Our Lord.11

Yes, she has been given many titles over the years, but most of them are not given by the Church, only individuals expresing their private feelings, as the Pope was here. This does not equate to the Teaching of the Church, which was handed down to us from the Apostles. Most of the most outrageous sounding expressions are, like this one, romantic poetry. Theologians don’t generally write them, and they are not intended to teach any theology. Why take offense over another man’s prayers? If he has missed the mark, don’t you think God will correct him?

Thus, Dr. Martin says,

I want to make it clear at the beginning that I put much emphasis upon knowing the doctrine of the Virgin Mary in Catholic theology because if any one doctrine in the Roman Catholic formula of theology would cause us, on Biblical grounds, to withdraw from fellowship with them, this would be the doctrine.

Does he agree with the title Theotokos? This was one of the first titles officially given to her by the Church. As with everything concerning Mary, it was a response to heresy that the Church had to clarify her role with her Son.

 11 Walter Martin, The Roman Catholic Church in History (Livingston, NJ: Christian Research Institute, Inc., 1960), pp. 45-46.

12 Ibid., p. 43.

Addressing the theology of the prayer Dr. Walter R. Martin said:

To the contrary, Christ is the author and finisher of faith. Mary is not the “glory and joy and honor of Christians”…

This just seems like a silly exercise to me. Why would anyone want to dissect another man’s romantic poetry as if it needed theological parsing?

Do people do that with other poetry? Is all poetry of Christain men expected to be a perfect theological treatise? Honestly! What is the point?

Doesnt’ it make more sense to argue with Catholics about what the Church teaches concerning Mary, rather than creating strawmen out of a prayer?

I am glad no one has analyzed my prayers…I fear I would be found very wanting!

Any thoughts Catholic brothers and Sisters…? Is this prayer simply “poetry” about Mary? Would you as a Catholic after reading the prayer feel comfortable praying it? Would you feel right attributing attributes that belong to Christ to Mary…when Jesus is the Mediator between God and Man? Jesus is our Redeemer and High Priest our “go between” we as Hebrews says have access behind the veil through the blood of Jesus…WHY OH WHY…do I need to call on Mary to get to the Father…will not Jesus hear me?

I must say, these types of prayers are way beyond my sentiment and experiences.

 P.S. I know the theology that Mary because she is "closer to Christ" than we are that Jesus will hear her and grant our petitions if it is his will...However, as I have stated we have access to the Father through Jesus, he is the Mediator who goes to the Father in our behalf...why then would I need Mary to be a go between me and Jesus?

You don’t need to, and neither do Catholics. Private devotions of this kind are like the Rosary, not required, and not imposed.

Faith is a living, daring confidence in God’s grace, so sure and certain that a man could stake his life on it a thousand times. --**Martin Luther **

Well, better not dare writing any romantic poetry in your prayers! History might call you an idolater.

 

[guanophore]

There are several on here that have said and imply the the CC is the only true church.  But I do agree with you Jesus Christ is the foundationn of the church!!!!! NOT Peter.  If you preached always what the Holy Ghost layed on your heart to preach, there would be no conflicts.

Yes. Jesus only founded One Church. it is founded upon Peter, along with the other Apostles and Prophets as the foundation, Himself as the cornerstone.

The problem with your idea about preaching as the HS guides is that everyone perceives what they hear differently. Even if each one preaches what they sincerely believe they heard the Spirit say, it still goes thru the filters of their percpetions, which are influenced by their experiences and education (or lack of it). The conflicts result from these differences. That is why Jesus appointed a Teaching Authority,a nd promised to guide them into all truth.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Yes, I am a blithering idiot and just thought I was told that…I don’t even know how I find my ignition to start the car let alone drive. I am so sick to death of this attitude…YES I WAS TAUGHT THAT> FOR 16 years at a Private Girls Catholic Education l!!! and before that my Grandmother, who went to mass and said the rosary EVERY DAY !!! Now knock off the " OR YOU THOUGHT YOU WERE TOLD THAT"…Can you read, or do you only think you can read. Stop the remarks .

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Yeah! And what a Man He is!

He suffered death and was buried! On the third day He rose again! He ascended into Heaven and is seated at the right hand of The Father!..

Fortunately, He left a Vicar to lead His Church until He returns!

What a man!

Does your ‘faith’ have a human link pass your pastor to the time of THAT Man? Save yourself time; you don’t! I’d be surprised if you can even trace back pass this decade!

OPEN YOUR MIND!

I can track it right back to the birth of Christ…My Husband was call by Him to the ministry when he was 11…He begain His ministry at 21…He served God to the fullest until his death. I only have to track it back to calvary.

 

[guanophore]

Not true tha Baptist did not get here until about 1500 or 1600 well after Constantine start the CC

I was about to ask Yankee for some historical evidence to support his imaginitive development of the Baptist tradtition, but realized that was a futile exercise. Instead, i would like to ask you for some evidence that Constantine started the CC.

 

[guanophore]

Let’s use simple sense. According to Jesus,

Many are called, but few are chosen. Even some of those who call him ‘Lord’ will not get to enter heaven. It is harder for the rich to enter heaven than for the camel to enter through the ‘eye of the needle’.

What does the above teach us? It TELLS us that VERY few will be saved…many will try, but few will make it.

NOW…ask yourself is Catholicism not one of the LARGEST religious establishment known to mankind?

If the criteria is the physical church and the Roman Catholics are the ones to be saved…then how can it be ‘few are chosen’???

Your question is based upon several false premises. No one ever said that being a Catholic meant a person was saved. Second, the Catholic Church is not “Roman”, and the size of the Chuch has nothing to do with salvation either. All These statements are false, so is your conclusion.

It would be ‘the majority are chosen’.

Yes, if your premises were false, this would be the correct conclusion. Since the “chosen” have nothing to do with their external affiliation, it is inaccurate.

• The church is not a physical establishment, it is a spiritual church. Don’t expect God to say ‘this church is saved, and everyone in it has everlasting life’, while ‘that church is condemned and everyone in it is doomed’

I do not expect God to say anything of the sort, but the Church is still visible. .

God sent His Son to save us through Spiritual Re-birth and Growth through a personal relationship towards godliness & holiness. Not a cart with fixed structures to feed in those who follow a certain system of sacraments & physical instructions. God Is Spirit.

It appears that you have been misled about the Catholic church. What is a "system of sacraments?

What makes you think Jesus left no “physical instructions”. What do you think came out of the council in Jerusalem?

Jesus said we worship God in Truth & Spirit. Not in sacraments & membership to worldly demarcations.

The two are not mutually exclusive. What brings you here to CAF?

 

[guanophore]

I just was not thinking,I was about 300 years late, I just do know what I was thinking about,Sorry
I was reading about the Church History and some peak moments and out of the blue I said Canstantine,can you forgive me or does 300 years help my at all…LOL…thats the first time I have been wrong is 43 years,smile

I am relieved to hear that, Bill. I also made a mistake once. I think it was in 1968…

,

 

[guanophore]

Show some catholicity and include all the people of the world in your conclusions.

Catholicity describes those who embrace the Teachings of Jesus in the Church founded upon His Apostles. THough it is available to the whole world, it does not include the whole world. You are the most immediate example of this.

 

[guanophore]

Can’t be done! Baptists have a rich and ancient history. They adhere to the apostolic teachings. They are true Biblical Christians. They existed in many small groups long before Constantine legalized Christianity.

This is true on several levels. They do like to look back into history, and read themselves into the history of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

They also stand in a linieage of heresies that have gone back a long time in history. Irenaeus wrote against some of these in the 2nd century.

But in truth, “biblical Christianity” is an invention of the Reformation. Jesus founded His Church upon the Aposltes and Prophets, not upon a book. He did not give the book authority, but the people, who then wrote, preserved promulgated and canonized the NT.

The idea that Christianity can be extrapolated from the book, apart from the Sacred Tradition that produced it, is part of what results in the great plethora of denominations today, the Baptists being one of the most vociferously anti-Catholic.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Yes. Jesus only founded One Church. it is founded upon Peter, along with the other Apostles and Prophets as the foundation, Himself as the cornerstone.

The problem with your idea about preaching as the HS guides is that everyone perceives what they hear differently. Even if each one preaches what they sincerely believe they heard the Spirit say, it still goes thru the filters of their percpetions, which are influenced by their experiences and education (or lack of it). The conflicts result from these differences. That is why Jesus appointed a Teaching Authority,a nd promised to guide them into all truth.

Ok Say that is so …what happened during the dark ages…was that an oops by God or and oops by the Popes…Many where killed under the guise of Christianity, and both claming to be Christians…The popes lived evil lives, and everyone still listened to their teachings…Now I know that many ministers have done horrible things as well, but they never claimed to be infallible when it comes to church matters. So in there lies the rub. Decissions where made during these periods by the Popes and the Church listened to a debachorious man. The power was his. Now do you believe that Christ condoned all of the things that he was teaching and doing.

 

[Bill_Pick]

guanophore:
I think I beat you by two years…Just kidding

 

[Mosacked]

Your question is based upon several false premises. No one ever said that being a Catholic meant a person was saved. Second, the Catholic Church is not “Roman”, and the size of the Chuch has nothing to do with salvation either. All These statements are false, so is your conclusion.

Yes, if your premises were false, this would be the correct conclusion. Since the “chosen” have nothing to do with their external affiliation, it is inaccurate.

I do not expect God to say anything of the sort, but the Church is still visible. .

It appears that you have been misled about the Catholic church. What is a "system of sacraments?

What makes you think Jesus left no “physical instructions”. What do you think came out of the council in Jerusalem?

The two are not mutually exclusive. What brings you here to CAF?

Firstly, being catholic means you can be saved by going through specific sacraments & procedures that has been systematically laid out. If that does not = being saved, why do you even want to be a catholic?

Secondly, calling it Roman Catholics does not mean I do not refer to the Catholics, just like I call American Indians when referring to the Indians in America.

Thirdly, since you admit that the chosen has nothing to do with external affiliation, why even bother being a catholic? You could well be a protestant.

Fourthly, no one EXPECTS what God is to say. Just like I didn’t expect you to spout such rubbish and be proud of it. What is man to EXPECT from the creator? NOTHING!

What do I think? You really wouldn’t want to know.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Yes, I am a blithering idiot and just thought I was told that…I don’t even know how I find my ignition to start the car let alone drive. I am so sick to death of this attitude…YES I WAS TAUGHT THAT> FOR 16 years at a Private Girls Catholic Education l!!! and before that my Grandmother, who went to mass and said the rosary EVERY DAY !!! Now knock off the " OR YOU THOUGHT YOU WERE TOLD THAT"…Can you read, or do you only think you can read. Stop the remarks .

And are you useing “Christs” name in vain?

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Yes DEBAUCHERY is a real word look it up. I was going to give you the meaning but you need the practice…I will type this slowly, as I cannot speak slowly to you…Yes I do know that the Pope can be and is a sinner…I never said he could not be I said ( I was taught by priests and nuns, that the POPE in INFALLIBLE ONLY where church matters are concerned…But in that he is infallible, which is not true because only the word of God is infallible.

 

[Deconi]

And are you useing “Christs” name in vain?

Originally Posted by Leslie Polley
Yes, I am a blithering idiot and just thought I was told that…I don’t even know how I find my ignition to start the car let alone drive. I am so sick to death of this attitude…YES I WAS TAUGHT THAT> FOR 16 years at a Private Girls Catholic Education l!!!

??!?!?! Is going to school for 16year indicative of something?!

 

[Deconi]

Yes DEBAUCHERY is a real word look it up. I was going to give you the meaning but you need the practice…I will type this slowly, as I cannot speak slowly to you…Yes I do know that the Pope can be and is a sinner…I never said he could not be I said ( I was taught by priests and nuns, that the POPE in INFALLIBLE ONLY where church matters are concerned…But in that he is infallible, which is not true because only the word of God is infallible.

The Bible is INERRANT…Not INFALLIBLE!

That is why there is so many versions of it, including the version you have chosen to follow, which is deficient!

The Living Word of God is Christ and He is most certainly Infallible. Infallible when He built His church on Peter, gave him the Keys to the Kingdom and PROMISED him His guidance to all truths.

 

[reteeks21]

Yes DEBAUCHERY is a real word look it up. I was going to give you the meaning but you need the practice…I will type this slowly, as I cannot speak slowly to you…Yes I do know that the Pope can be and is a sinner…I never said he could not be I said ( I was taught by priests and nuns, that the POPE in INFALLIBLE ONLY where church matters are concerned…But in that he is infallible, which is not true because only the word of God is infallible.

Were the teachings of the Apostles and Paul that we find in the New Testament infallible?

 

[PRmerger]

Leslie_Polley:

You are truly a moron…It sstates in LARGE PRINT…All have sinned EXCEPT>>>EXCEPT EXCEPT JESUS…This absolutally proves my point YOU DO NOT READ or your comprehension is null…EXCEPT JESUS>>>GOD>>>THE HOLY SPIRIT>>>>>EXCEPT THEM !!!

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Yes. Jesus only founded One Church. it is founded upon Peter, along with the other Apostles and Prophets as the foundation, Himself as the cornerstone.

The problem with your idea about preaching as the HS guides is that everyone perceives what they hear differently. Even if each one preaches what they sincerely believe they heard the Spirit say, it still goes thru the filters of their percpetions, which are influenced by their experiences and education (or lack of it). The conflicts result from these differences. That is why Jesus appointed a Teaching Authority,a nd promised to guide them into all truth.

I can only judge by what I have heard personally…In the Catholic church the Priest reads a scripture, spends about oh, 7-10 minutes on that and then goes back to the mass, or singing, or whatever…Yes I have been to Catholic masses…everyday for the first 18 years of my life. Every day but Sasturdays. My husband would spend hours preparing his sermon in prayer and study every week for 32 years. He had a main text, and then the sermon that really explained what the text would mean. He would speak for at least 45 minutes, so that things where thouroghly understood. If he gave his opinion he let everyone know that it was his opinion, and Not from the Bible. Until the Lord comes again, and I pray that will be soon to take His people home, there are going to be disagreemants. There is only one thing I can say, I have heard many priests preach, as have you, I also have heard a wonderful man preach, and truly devote his life to the ministry, and you have not heard him…You cannot make a judgement here.