Prove Transubtantiation and I will convert

[Ronald_E]

Peary, I have to clarify something on the brain development and the Real Presence. I meant to say if the child does not observe the Jesus’ presence in the parent or authority who receives communion then the Real Presence becomes meaningless and the hard wiring of the brain develops with a sense that Jesus is not in Communion. I have worked 30 years in the field of human development and attachment theory and the evidence is extremely clear how important our early attachments are in forming our sense of self and others and where we fit in.
From my perspective in my life Jesus was always in me even when I left Catholicism for 40 years because I did receive Him in Communion and He was always directing me towards a being a better person.
It is very clear to me that He directed me to help others. The underlying value system that He formed in me through the Eucharist in my childhood was a constant source of influence. How I approach others in discussion of our Catholic faith may either reflect Jesus in me or may reflect He is not present depending on my disposition.
Grace entered my life at age 58 and changed the hard-wiring that did not believe in the Real Presence. Now my mind is new and I do consciously see the truth of Communion.
Now I can accept the beautiful expression of the Church Fathers as I see them express their belief in Communion.
Now I can truly appreciate the effort of those in this forum who passionately search for and bring their writings to us.
God Bless You

 

[Steadfast]

ZOMG!!!

We’ve done this already.

Church fathers:

Real Presence?

Yes, absolutely, always and everywhere.

Transubstantiation? Understanding that it means a complete exchange between the terrestrial and divine elements such that the bread and wine cease to exist except in appearance, only the Body and Blood remaining?

No. Nowhere, until Cyril vaguely hints at the idea and no one appears to have much taken it up again until the middle ages.

Your grade:

For demonstrating the ability to cut and paste the same stuff that has already been cut and pasted in this very thread:

A+++++++

For actually answering the OP:

F

You fail. You get nothing. You lose.

Good DAY, SIR!

 

[Ronald_E]

I am going to propose this to the discussion. When Jesus breathed on His apostles before He ascended into Heaven He told them that whatever they bound on earth would also be bound in Heaven and so on. Now, when He breathed on them He actually changed them permanently and gave them the power to create through the power of His Word the rituals and the sacraments that we now receive in the Catholic faith. The Word made Flesh then is transferred to the Apostles who then use this to bring us the Eucharist and the other sacraments beginning with Jesus breathing on them. When they establish the priesthood the Word then confers on the new priest the power that Jesus gave the Apostles.
If at any point a priest breaks away from the Catholic church and then the line is broken, the Eucharist becomes a symbol in the new religion that is established because the Word only applies to those who are ordained and connected to the origin of the sacrament.
The power that Jesus gives His apostles to bring Him into the Eucharist is in His breath and His Word. What they establish in the Church is then validated through Jesus’ promise to them. God cannot lie. “This is my body and blood…”

 

[peary]

Peary, I have to clarify something on the brain development and the Real Presence. I meant to say if the child does not observe the Jesus’ presence in the parent or authority who receives communion then the Real Presence becomes meaningless and the hard wiring of the brain develops with a sense that Jesus is not in Communion. I have worked 30 years in the field of human development and attachment theory and the evidence is extremely clear how important our early attachments are in forming our sense of self and others and where we fit in.
From my perspective in my life Jesus was always in me even when I left Catholicism for 40 years because I did receive Him in Communion and He was always directing me towards a being a better person.
It is very clear to me that He directed me to help others. The underlying value system that He formed in me through the Eucharist in my childhood was a constant source of influence. How I approach others in discussion of our Catholic faith may either reflect Jesus in me or may reflect He is not present depending on my disposition.
Grace entered my life at age 58 and changed the hard-wiring that did not believe in the Real Presence. Now my mind is new and I do consciously see the truth of Communion.
Now I can accept the beautiful expression of the Church Fathers as I see them express their belief in Communion.
Now I can truly appreciate the effort of those in this forum who passionately search for and bring their writings to us.
God Bless You

You bring to the forum an interesting perspective. Thanks.

 

[Ronald_E]

Dear Steadfast,
We gain Jesus when we receive the Eucharist. I only lost when I did not believe until the age of 58. There is only gain and no loss in Communion.

 

[O.S.Luke]

Actually, it’s ‘yours’, it certainly isn’t ‘mine’, and it definitely isn’t what Christ intended, nor is it in keeping with the one doctrine of the Church for the past two-thousand years.

I can see that further discussion is pointless. I have not disparaged your faith. Thank you for disparaging mine.

Pax vobiscum,
O+

 

[O.S.Luke]

But Methodism supports abortion, no? I do know that the United Methodist position in favor of abortion has been so strong that two of its institutions helped organize and affiliate with the Religious Coalition for Abortion Rights. For many years RCAR used office space in the United Methodist Building which is located across the street from the U.S. Supreme Court. In both 1996 and 1997 the United Methodist Church publicly supported Bill Clinton’s veto of the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act (H.R. 1833). While the 1996 United Methodist Church’s Book of Discipline still maintains a strong pro-abortion position, it now includes wording recognizing the “sanctity of unborn human life.” It further states, “We cannot affirm abortion as an acceptable means of birth control and we unconditionally reject it as a means of gender selection.” It’s like they are attempting to cover both ends of the same pipe, if you ask me.

No. There are factions within Methodism that do… just as there are Catholics that support the ordination of women. And the UMC did NOT publically support the Clinton veto - if you know so much about the Discipline, then you should know that only the General Conference, not even a UMC agency or division chair, can officially speak for the UMC. An unofficial faction within the UMC did support the Clinton veto. And the 1996 Discipline is no longer official; the 2004 Discipline is, tho.

I don’t want to be Catholic, Peary. But it seems like you want to be Catholic AND an expert in Methodism. And we have strayed from the OP, I believe.

If you want to win the argument, that is fine - here’s my notice that “you win” so you can save face with your Catholic friends. I don’t want to play anymore - you’re a bully, and a dishonest and disingenuous one at that.

 

[Harpazo]

We view the church catholic differently. And we don’t view the Eucharist as a “United Methodist” sacrament; we view it as a sacrament, period. It is the Lord’s Table, not ours. The invitation is given, as I have reprinted earlier: Christ our Lord invites to his table:

1. all who love him,
2. who earnestly repent of their sin, and
3. seek to live in peace with one another.

Since homosexuality, abortion on demand, polygamy, etc are sins, if one hasn’t repented of them, then they cannot answer the invitation in the affirmative, and are not taking confession and receiving pardon faithfully.

O+

As I said on the surface that sounds good, but you didn’t answer my question. What of those whose denominations teach something different from Wesley’s view on Christianity and don’t believe in the real presence as you all see it? Shouldn’t they be taught and be in union with your belief? After all communion means “union with.”

Again it sounds good, but it was not what Apostolic Christianity taught. Because a complete heretic in your sense would be allowed to receive your Eucharist as long as he did the formula described in the Methodist ritual, according to his beliefs.

Al-Masih Qam!

Andrew

 

[AlegreFe]

An unbelieving world needs definition.

An unbelieving world needs faith.

An unbelieving world needs both. For some, the definition might just start to open their eyes. Once their eyes are open it is only because of faith, a faith given as a gift from God.

For those cradle Catholics who believed since before they can remember it is only because of the gift of faith and therefore we do not need an explanation such as “transubstantiation.” But there are people out there who want an explanation because they are “doubting Thomases.”

Mickey, you are only human. Don’t tell me that you do not need any kind of explanation for anything at all. I am sure you asked questions as a child and then more as an adult. I’m not talking about the Eucharist here. I’m talking about things of the earth and such, or things about how we came to be, “where do babies come from?” and questions such as those.

God created science so that people who do not believe or have doubts could start to believe. He created science so that we can have some kind of explanation for many things in this universe.

Jesus let Thomas touch His wounds. Jesus did not tell Thomas, “oh well, too bad. You do not believe so therefore I will not serve your request of touching my wounds.” No, Jesus would not do that. Jesus clearly allowed Thomas to do as he requested, to touch His wounds so that he can believe. Now we all now that once Thomas did touch the wounds of Jesus he was given the gift of Faith by God. But it took for Thomas to touch the wounds of Christ in order for God to give him the gift of faith.

The Trinity is clear and evident in Scripture. Transubstantiation is not.

The Trinity is not clear but it is evident in Scripture. By “not clear” we mean the word “Trinity” is not spelled out in Scripture. The same goes for “transubstantiation.” It is not very clear but it is VERY EVIDENT in Sacred Scripture. You just can’t “see” it because of your “flesh” and your pride.

If that word helps you to believe and explain the great Mystery of the Eucharist, then by all means, use it.

That word does not “help” us to believe for we already believe. It does help to “explain” however, for those who do not already believe.

For those with any doubt for the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist please click on the second link in my signature.

 

[peary]

I can see that further discussion is pointless. I have not disparaged your faith. Thank you for disparaging mine.

Pax vobiscum,
O+

Our Faith is the same: in Jesus Christ. What you misunderstand is how important the Eucharist is in the Church (Catholic). I will discuss this again with my mother-in-law (who also teaches one of the Bible study groups at her church) and will talk with her pastor. At the root of our disagreement is the very nature of the Church and priesthood. I guess on those two points we will not agree. No disparagement was meant.

 

[justinthemartyr]

this would be like proving that Jesus walked on water. I don’t see you having a problem with that, even though you cannot prove it absolutely.

 

[Steadfast]

Dear Steadfast,
We gain Jesus when we receive the Eucharist. I only lost when I did not believe until the age of 58. There is only gain and no loss in Communion.

I agree completely.

 

[thirdn6]

this would be like proving that Jesus walked on water. I don’t see you having a problem with that, even though you cannot prove it absolutely.

same as proving Jesus’ appearance to His disciples in the closed room after the resurrection.

Did anyone among His disciple dared asked Him, “Hey, Lord, how in the world you get in here???”

Not even the doubting Thomas who was with them the second time around. He was probably astounded and kept it to himself until the Lord asked him to come forth and touch His hands and His sides. And then he believed. And he humbled himself, saying, “My Lord and my God!”

Blessed are those who didn’t see… and yet believed…

Holy Eucharist is for the faithful members of His body- the One, Holy, Apostolic, and Catholic Church.

“Transubstantiation” is the theologians explanation to unbelievers of what we always and already believed since the time of the ECFs. This is about FAITH.

Keep your faith, my friends, and stay in the Light. Don’t let it be shaken by few doubting Thomases. Don’t get carried away…

But pray… that the Lord increase our faith… and open our hearts and minds to the teachings of the Church.

---

Be angry, and sin not… Give not place to the devil.
Ephesians 4:26-27 +

 

[Ronald_E]

I just returned from Mass and the reading today centered on Christ’s appearance to the apostles after His Resurrection. He appeared to them on the first day of the week, which is today, Sunday.
He breathed on them and said “Receive the Holy Spirit…” They were immediately changed. Each time He appeared to them it was the first day of the week.
Human beings were created on the sixth day; the same as the animals. Humans and mammals have the same instinctive brain structure called the limbic brain. This is the basis from which we form our human bonds, seek pleasure, procreate, protect and attack. These are extremely powerful feelings that motivate human beings to form alliances just as animals do to defend or attack in order to survive. All of our human institutions are formed to ensure that our particular environment is safe and defended against those who might harm us. This is living in the “flesh”.
Jesus now tells us to live in the spirit after His Resurrection and to move from the day we were created with the animals in the flesh to the day He created in the Spirit and to be a new creation.
This new creation looks the same but is internally different from the appearance of the flesh.
This new creation of the spirit is a Communion of love which is to unite His Church and all of us to Him with The Father. Paul’s,Peter’s and John’s letters constantly speak of being a new creation. The Bread of Life which unites us is the Eucharist if it is experienced from the perspective of the Spirit. If it is not received from that spiritual perspective then we continue to live in the flesh and are subject to the old man’s {mind’s) history of experience. This would lead to conflict and separation.
In receiving Communion I am moved from the flesh to the union with God in the Spirit. I am in Him and He is in me through His Word and not my word.
These are just thoughts after Communion this morning.
God Bless all of you today as we start our week with the Lord’s Day and hope to continue this day throughout the week.

 

[AlegreFe]

same as proving Jesus’ appearance to His disciples in the closed room after the resurrection.

Did anyone among His disciple dared asked Him, “Hey, Lord, how in the world you get in here???”

Not even the doubting Thomas who was with them the second time around. He was probably astounded and kept it to himself until the Lord asked him to come forth and touch His hands and His sides. And then he believed. And he humbled himself, saying, “My Lord and my God!”

Blessed are those who didn’t see… and yet believed…

Holy Eucharist is for the faithful members of His body- the One, Holy, Apostolic, and Catholic Church.

“Transubstantiation” is the theologians explanation to unbelievers of what we always and already believed since the time of the ECFs. This is about FAITH.

Keep your faith, my friends, and stay in the Light. Don’t let it be shaken by few doubting Thomases. Don’t get carried away…

But pray… that the Lord increase our faith… and open our hearts and minds to the teachings of the Church.

---

Be angry, and sin not… Give not place to the devil.
Ephesians 4:26-27 +

Amen. Amen. Amen.

 

[AlegreFe]

I just returned from Mass and the reading today centered on Christ’s appearance to the apostles after His Resurrection. He appeared to them on the first day of the week, which is today, Sunday.
He breathed on them and said “Receive the Holy Spirit…” They were immediately changed. Each time He appeared to them it was the first day of the week.
Human beings were created on the sixth day; the same as the animals. Humans and mammals have the same instinctive brain structure called the limbic brain. This is the basis from which we form our human bonds, seek pleasure, procreate, protect and attack. These are extremely powerful feelings that motivate human beings to form alliances just as animals do to defend or attack in order to survive. All of our human institutions are formed to ensure that our particular environment is safe and defended against those who might harm us. This is living in the “flesh”.
Jesus now tells us to live in the spirit after His Resurrection and to move from the day we were created with the animals in the flesh to the day He created in the Spirit and to be a new creation.
This new creation looks the same but is internally different from the appearance of the flesh.
This new creation of the spirit is a Communion of love which is to unite His Church and all of us to Him with The Father. Paul’s,Peter’s and John’s letters constantly speak of being a new creation. The Bread of Life which unites us is the Eucharist if it is experienced from the perspective of the Spirit. If it is not received from that spiritual perspective then we continue to live in the flesh and are subject to the old man’s {mind’s) history of experience. This would lead to conflict and separation.
In receiving Communion I am moved from the flesh to the union with God in the Spirit. I am in Him and He is in me through His Word and not my word.
These are just thoughts after Communion this morning.
God Bless all of you today as we start our week with the Lord’s Day and hope to continue this day throughout the week.

Here is my take on your “thoughts” … they weren’t just thoughts.
I think it was the Holy Spirit. :angel1: Thank you so much for your "in"Holy "in"Spirit insight.

Did your Parish have the Divine Mercy Holy Hour today? plenary indulgence

 

[Mickey]

Finally your true colors are revealed:

Is that an insult? Steadfast is correct. The intense triumphalism I sometimes see here is disconcerting.

 

[Mickey]

An unbelieving world needs both.

Mysteries cannot be defined–hence the word “Mystery”.

Don’t tell me that you do not need any kind of explanation for anything at all.

This is regarding the Eucharist. I feel that the Thomistic philosophical definition using the word “transubstantiation” is pointless and confusing.

I am sure you asked questions as a child and then more as an adult. I’m not talking about the Eucharist here.

This thread is about the Eucharist.

I’m talking about things of the earth and such.

Render to Caesar what is Caesar’s.

God created science so that people who do not believe or have doubts could start to believe.

The Sacred Scripture and the writings of the Early Church Fathers are wonderful teaching tools. And neither one talks about the philosophy of Transubstantiation.

He created science so that we can have some kind of explanation for many things in this universe.

Sometimes science offers a viable explanation and sometimes it offers a hypothesis, but science has nothing to do with The Holy Eucharist.

The Trinity is not clear but it is evident in Scripture. By “not clear” we mean the word “Trinity” is not spelled out in Scripture. The same goes for “transubstantiation.”

We are not talking about the actual “word” here. The meaning of the The Trinity is clear and evidient in Sacred Scripture. The Holy Eucharist is clear and evident in Sacred Scripture. The science and philosophy behind the word “transubstantiation” is nowhere to be found in Sacred Scripture or Sacred Tradition until post-schism Rome brought it forth.

It is not very clear but it is VERY EVIDENT in Sacred Scripture. You just can’t “see” it because of your “flesh” and your pride.

Please do not insult me. It is hurtful. I do not need to see it. I believe it–through faith in my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Yes, I have flesh. Yes, I have sinful pride which I struggle against everyday. I am the most wretched of sinners.

That word does not “help” us to believe for we already believe. It does help to “explain” however, for those who do not already believe.

Again, if it helps you–God bless. Most Catholics I know, have never heard of the word “transubstantiation” and when you introduce them to the concept they become confused.

 

[Mickey]

“Transubstantiation” is the theologians explanation to unbelievers

If the word “transubstantiation” confuses most cradle Catholics. How do you figure that it will help unbelievers?

 

[KJK80]

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transubstantiation

Maybe I’m simple, but it doesn’t seem to be that huge of problem to me… Either you accept it as an article of faith or you don’t… I don’t think there’s a lot of confusion, unless like anything, you just plain think about it too hard. In which case we could go back to the argument of whether God exists at all; which I certainly hope we are not going to have any time soon.