Prove Transubtantiation and I will convert

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I’ll say it one more time. If the odd philosophical concept of “transubstantiation” assists you in understanding the undefinable Mystery of the Holy Eucharist—then God bless.
You put words in my mouth. Don’t talk about other people putting words in your mouth because you do the same thing. A log?
Stop putting words in my mouth–it is not honest.

Please do not keep putting words in my mouth.
:rolleyes:

I don’t need to “understand” because I already believe. But there are some people that require some kind of explanation for how it could happen. I myself just say “it is the Holy Spirit that makes it happen” and leave it at that. But there are some people that ask further, “but how is it so?” I will never understand why many people even need that explanation, but it is there from the ECFs.

Someone asked me to explain the Eucharist to her and if someone threw up the Eucharist and put it under a microscope will they see Jesus or just bread. Before I explained anything to her I made sure she understood that FAITH is needed and that no amount of explanation will suffice if there is no faith. She understood clearly that she needed faith in order to “see.” But she still wanted some kind of explanation. So I just gave her my analogy of it.

I myself also take the words of Jesus very seriously, "Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life." That’s all I need, Jesus’ word. He said it, I believe it. It is only by faith that one can see and believe. Our own “flesh” understanding of the mystery is “no help at all.”
But thank God that Jesus allowed Thomas to touch His wounds so that he can believe. That was enough “explanation” for Thomas to believe. There is always going to be someone that needs some kind of explanation. We have many doubting Thomases in this world and Jesus allows for explanations to be told. Then God might just give them the gift of Faith after that.
 
You put words in my mouth. Don’t talk about other people putting words in your mouth because you do the same thing.
I do not see where I misrepresented you. My apologies. Forgive this sinner.

So then you do not adhere to the phiolsophical concept of transubstantiation? :confused:
I don’t need to “understand” because I already believe.
Amen. God bless.
But there are some people that require some kind of explanation for how it could happen.
Again, I can only write of my own experience as a Latin Catholic for nearly 40 years. I have never met someone in the Roman Catholic Church who understood the Real Presence more clearly after being introduced to the hypothesis of “transubstantiation”. 🤷
I myself just say “it is the Holy Spirit that makes it happen” and leave it at that. But there are some people that ask further, “but how is it so?” I will never understand why many people even need that explanation
Amen. God bless you.
but it is there from the ECFs.
The Real Presence is there–not transubstantiation.
We have many doubting Thomases in this world
Yes.

John 20:29
Jesus saith to him: Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed.
 
**The Mysterion of the Divine Eucharist that has been handed down by the Lord is the highest of all the Mysteria; it is the most wondrous of all the miracles which the power of God has performed; it is the highest which the wisdom of God has conceived; it is the most precious of all the gifts which the love of God has bestowed upon men. For all the other miracles result through a transcendence of certain laws of Nature, but the Mysterion of the divine Eucharist transcends all these laws. Hence it may justly be called, and be viewed as, the miracle of miracles and the Mysterion of Mysteria. **
**St Nectarios of **Aegina



I like that philosophical explanation. It is beautiful.
 
If the word “transubstantiation” confuses most cradle Catholics. How do you figure that it will help unbelievers?
I’m sorry to interrupt any discussion but I need to clarify myself a little bit about this.

It’s always been said, “For those who believe, no explanation is required. For the UNBELIEVERS, no explanation is possible”- but the Catholic Church always try to explain so that those who doubt may not be left in the dark.

Most sincere and faithful Catholics look at our Mother Mary as their model of faith- they don’t need explanations. Mary didn’t “probe” the angel how she’s going to conceive since she didn’t knew a man. She left it thru her faith and total confidence in God whatever that meant. And so we all have the gift of salvation because of the coming of Jesus, the Christ.

Most UNBELIEVERS are those who are somehow learned and educated scholars, who want explanations and absolute answers to almost anything. (Most unbelievers who are not learned just simply believe when they convert- like maybe the apostles?). I am not saying that to become scholar or learned is to become hard-headed or stubborn. What I want to say is that there is limitation to a human mind. We all have “finite” mind. We can not fathom all the works of the Almighty. The mysteries of our own self, the vastness of the universe. Just think about yourself compared to how big the earth is. The earth compared to Jupiter. Jupiter to the sun. Mindboggling…yeah? And you endanger your very soul just because somebody, who has a finite mind, could not explain to you fully how the simple bread and wine becomes the true flesh and blood of the Creator, the Holy Catholic Church “labeled” as Transubstantiation.🤷

Out of the twelve, one who was a scholar, became the one who betrayed the Lord Jesus Christ. Ever wonder why…?

God bless.

Be angry, and sin not… Give not place to the devil.
Ephesians 4:26-27 :mad: + :signofcross:
 
Out of the twelve, one who was a scholar, became the one who betrayed the Lord Jesus Christ.
Excellent post! We do not need scholars to explain to us how the change takes place using fancy philosophical words and theories.

Faith and knowledge, is in simplicity. 👍
 
Dear Mickey, You may not need explanation but everyone has a different way to relate to God and to explore the mystery of God. I came from coal miners on both sides of my family and I was the first one to go to college after being in the military for four years. I was afraid to take that step into an area where I felt I did not belong. I was jealous of those who were educated and felt inferior to them in intellect. When I was challenged by a great friend in the military to face my fears, he gave me the gift that nobody had given to me before. He stated I had what it took to face what I feared. Through panic attacks and social phobia I got an education that has proved invaluable. Members of my family who did not face their fears denigrate my education.
I love knowledge and now through God’s Grace gaining understanding and knowledge of God’s Presence in however small or meaningless it might appear to someone else validates how He has created me in His image and likeness. Why create a conflict between brothers in Jesus only because we are created in different ways as different expressions of the same God?
I have to go for my morning Rosary Run to receive more insights into how God loves us.
God Bless You.
 
Excellent post! We do not need scholars to explain to us how the change takes place using fancy philosophical words and theories.

Faith and knowledge, is in simplicity. 👍
Hi,
Even Jesus Himself did not think it was simplicity in faith and knowledge. John 17: 20 I pray not only for these but also for those who through their teaching will come to believe in me.

Transubstantiation= The epitomising of the power of God,to show he is in control of all matter which generates from Him not an explination of how.

Comment: Being a scholar has nothing to do with it, being a teacher certainly does, that’s why Jesus left us with the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and Peter as the Rock to build His teaching Church.

Peace, OneNow1 :twocents:

P. S. By the way I beieve it was Justin Martyr, who used the word transmutation.
 
Dear Mickey, You may not need explanation but everyone has a different way to relate to God and to explore the mystery of God.
I do not know how many times I have to say that if the philosophy behind “transubstantiation” assists you personally, then go for it. I am simply stating that it is an unnecessary teaching and I have seen people become terribly confused by the whole concept. I truly believe that the Early Church Fathers taught no such philosophy when they dealt with the Real Presence in the Precious Gifts. But I will concede that there are people who may undoubtedly benefit from the Thomistic explanation. Please do not feel threatened because I happen to believe it is not necessary to embrace such a concept.

God bless you on your journey Ron.

Peace and blessings to your family and friends also!
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_29.gif
 
Transubstantiation
Col 2:8
Beware lest any man cheat you by philosophy, and vain deceit; according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ:
 
Transubstantiation
1 Cor 2:1-5
And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not in loftiness of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of Christ. For I judged not myself to know anything among you, but Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not in the persuasive words of human wisdom, but in showing of the Spirit and power; That your faith might not stand on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
 
Dear Mickey,
I am back from my Rosary Run. During my prayer, I was shown how the Israelites were attacked when they revealed to the world that they were the Chosen Ones to bring God to others. The attacks not only came from outside, attacks also occurred internally through conflicts about who had the truth of God.
Since the Catholic church identifies Herself as the Church that Jesus established on earth she has also been attacked externally and internally.
I am not threatened by your perceptions. I am extremely aware of how our Family has been fragmented by misunderstanding and a lack of humility. Paul tells us in his letters to listen to our authorities because they will be held responsible for what they teach us. Christ’s desire that we unite in His Love. Those who were responsible for the separation did not humble themselves to authority. From their separation more attacks followed for centuries and the further we move from the Church that Christ established the more harm we do as Christians to those we are to teach about Christ.
 
the Catholic church identifies Herself as the Church that Jesus established on earth she has also been attacked externally and internally.
The Holy Orthodox Church identifies Herself as the New Testament Church–the Church that Jesus Christ established on earth–the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. She holds the faith and Tradition of the holy Fathers. And she has been attacked externally and internally and continues to be attacked.

Peace
 
All the talk about Aristotelian philosophy, Real Presence, transubstantiation, and mystery reminds me of a Protestant theological joke.

[Context:Karl Barth was a Reformed theologian, described by Pope Pius XII as the most important theologian since Thomas Aquinas. Paul Tillich was an existentialist (ugh). Niebuhr was Augustinian and socialist. James Cone (still alive) is a liberation theologian.]

Karl Barth, Paul Tillich, Reinhold Niebuhr, and James Cone find themselves all at the same time at Caesarea Philippi. Who should come along but Jesus, and he asks the four famous theologians the same Christological question, “Who do you say that I am?”

Karl Barth stands up and says: “You are the totaliter aliter, the vestigious trinitatum who speaks to us in the modality of Christo-monism.”

Not prepared for Barth’s brevity, Paul Tillich stumbles out: “You are he who heals our ambiguities and overcomes the split of angst and existential estrangement; you are he who speaks of the theonomous viewpoint of the analogia entis, the analogy of our being and the ground of all possibilities.”

Reinhold Niebuhr gives a cough for effect and says, in one breath: “You are the impossible possibility who brings to us, your children of light and children of darkness, the overwhelming oughtness in the midst of our fraught condition of estrangement and brokenness in the contiguity and existential anxieties of our ontological relationships.”

Finally James Cone gets up, and raises his voice: “You are my Oppressed One, my soul’s shalom, the One who was, who is, and who shall be, who has never left us alone in the struggle, the event of liberation in the lives of the oppressed struggling for freedom, and whose blackness is both literal and symbolic.”

And Jesus writes in the sand, “Huh?”

It may be just as simple as this: the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ. Period. No further explanation needed - or even possible.
 
Im just wondering where Steadfast is? Maybe he is talking to Jesus in the Holy Eucharist in the tabernacle of a Ctaholic church right now asking for a sign. I will pray for you Steadfast in my daily rosary that Mama Mary will enlighten you.
Just remember folks what St. Bernadette of Lourdes once said.
And to our Muslim friend who replied once come and have a healthy open dialogue about Catholic faith and we will welcome you home.
Ill pray that Steadfast will not be one of those who turned their back to Jesus when He declared abou His flesh and His blood to be consumed so you can have eternal life.

Pax Domini
 
The basis of Jesus’ writing on the ground is in Jeremiah 17:13;

O LORD, the hope of Israel, all who forsake you will be put to shame. Those who turn away from you will be written in the dust because they have forsaken the LORD, the spring of living water [NIV]

Today’s English Version says it better:

LORD, you are Israel’s hope; all who abandon you will be put to shame. They will disappear like names written in the dust, because they have abandoned you, the LORD, the spring of fresh water.

Whether the translators rendered the word as “dust,” “land,” “earth” or “ground” makes very little difference. The reason for such observation follows the word “because.” They disappeared because they had abandoned … the spring of fresh water. If there was no water, the land, earth or ground was “dust.” So the best rendering seems to be “dust.”

The prophet concludes his prediction with the expression of his own trust in Yahweh, and confidence that the divine justice will finally be vindicated by the punishment of the wicked. Shall be written in the earth; i.e., their names shall quickly disappear, unlike those graven in the rock forever (Job 19:24). A board covered with sand is used in the East to this day in schools for giving lessons in writing: but writing inscribed on such materials is intended to be immediately obliterated. Equally fleeting is the existence of those who forsake God. “All men are written somewhere, the saints in heaven, but sinners upon earth” (Origen). Verse 15 … shows that this prophecy was written before any very signal fulfillment of Jeremiah’s words had taken place, and prior therefore to the capture of Jerusalem at the close of Jehoiakim’s life.

I know that the following quote is complex, but I thought that the entire quote was necessary, even though many reading this do not know Hebrew and the associated wording. My intent is to get before you the “departing” and how “swiftly” that it would happen to the first century Israelites.

All who forsake the Lord come to shame. This word the Lord confirms through the mouth of the prophet in the second part of the verse.

Those that depart from thee (so some read it) shall be written in the earth. They shall soon be blotted out, as that is which is written in the dust. They shall be trampled upon and exposed to contempt. They belong to the earth, and shall be numbered among earthly people, who lay up their treasure on earth and whose names are not written in heaven. And they deserve to be thus written with the fools in Israel, that their folly may be made manifest unto all, because they have forsaken the Lord, the fountain of living waters (that is, spring waters), and that for broken cisterns.

Jesus knew that they wanted to trap him into making a mistake. He did not contradict the law – he told them to stone her, but let the one without sin be the first judge and cast the first stone. Before and after that statement, he wrote in the sand. Those are the only two instances that we know of that Jesus wrote anything. What did he write and why did he write it? The answer is to be found in Jer. 17:13.

Without exactly saying what Jesus wrote, the context, along with Jer. 17:13 should tell us what he wrote. He wrote the names and ages of each of the persons who were there, and in the exact order of their age, beginning with the oldest, ending with the youngest.

Just think. They knew that they had never met Jesus before. Therefore, he had no way of knowing who they were, much less knowing how old they were. Now, here is Jesus writing each of their names and their ages, in the exact order of their ages, beginning with the oldest one, ending with the last (other translations state it that way), in the dust, with his finger.
 
The Holy Orthodox Church identifies Herself as the New Testament Church–the Church that Jesus Christ established on earth–the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. She holds the faith and Tradition of the holy Fathers. And she has been attacked externally and internally and continues to be attacked.

Peace
The only way to resolve this problem, it seems, is through humility. Why can’t The New Testament Church join the Catholic Church since both have their foundation in The Real Presence? I’d rather be united than be “right”. However, being united would be Right. However, I am sure that would be another thread.
 
The only way to resolve this problem, it seems, is through humility. Why can’t The New Testament Church join the Catholic Church since both have their foundation in The Real Presence? I’d rather be united than be “right”. However, being united would be Right. However, I am sure that would be another thread.
St Mark of Ephesus pray for us.
 
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