Prove When Catholicism Started

[guanophore]

So there is my contribution. Hope it helps Catherine.

Robin

Good job!

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Thanks for the information. However, I’m looking for history that would be taught in a college classroom. That is, what’s univerally accepted by experts (with or without Christian or Catholic affiliation). Does this book do that?

In Acts 15, we find that Christians who have reached a difficult question about a doctrinal issue(necessity of circumcision for gentile converts) send their question to the apostolic leaders of the Church. The Catholic Church considers this the first Church council.

Peter was given a direct revelation from God in a vision which showed the council the truth in this matter.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Something to ponder…research the history of any and every Christian denomination, and see when they appeared on the time line. Mainline Protestant denominations didn’t exist until the 16th century, founded by a man or group of men 1500 years too late in the game to be Christ and His Apostles.

When these men broke away from the Church (all of the “reformers” were Catholic) they couldn’t even agree with each other about what the Bible was teaching about certain essential things! They knew the Church was wrong, but which of them was right? Luther? Calvin? Zwingli? Knox? None of the above?

 

[Reuben_J]

CatherineofA

The best proof is from a secular source. I am not sure of the exact dates but you can look up Pliny the Younger. Pliny the Elder lived from 23 to 79 AD. Pliny the Younger was his Nephew. But when the pagan Emperor of Rome told Pliny the Younger to check out what “those Christians were about”, he dutifully went to spy on them and came back to report:

“These Christians are very strange. They Drown their babies [Infant Baptism] and eat their God!” Eucharistic Belief.

The Didicha proves that the Early Christians were the same Catholics as Todays Catholics

…

Ignatius says in his "Letter to the Smymaeans-8’. “Whereever the Bishop appears, let the people be; as whereever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” Ignatius uses the word Episcopha for Bishop. As century’s went by Episcopha became in Old English *Biscoph *and finally in Modern English - Bishop. Much as Presbyter in the Bible became Presbyt in Old English and then finally Priest in Modern English. [Changed to *Elders

in Protestant Bibles] “Deacons” are still “Deacons”.

So there is my contribution. Hope it helps Catherine.

Robin

A very good and touching post, Robin, which I enjoy very much.

God bless.

Reuben

 

[CatherineofA]

The most proof that anyone will ever see that everything was Catholic in belief, is on the walls of the Catacombs of Rome:

The Sacred Heart is the most frequently represented symbol in the Catacombs.
In the Catacombs of Priscilla, there are a few paintings of the Virgin Mary in which she has Jesus on her lap with the Magi approaching which were painted as early as the third Century of Mary’s image.
In the Catacombs of St. Callixtus are symbols of the Eucharist and Baptism. There is a priest that is drawn with a small table which has a fish and a loaf of bread which is clearly a sign of the Consecration.
The Catacombs of St. Sebastian are prayers for Peter and Paul that say “Paul and Peter, pray for Victor–Peter and Paul pray for Sozomenon”.
At the entrance of the crypt of the popes in St. Callixtus, the wall is covered with prayers “O St. Sixtus, remember in your prayers Aurelius Repentinus”.
There are thousands of inscriptions with prayers of the living for the dead or with requests to the dead that they pray for those still alive.

I think every non-Catholic Christian should go and visit these walls…You’ll think differently when you return.

This is really interesting! Where did you find this and is this referenced anywhere?

 

[CatherineofA]

CatherineofA

The best proof is from a secular source. I am not sure of the exact dates but you can look up Pliny the Younger. Pliny the Elder lived from 23 to 79 AD. Pliny the Younger was his Nephew. But when the pagan Emperor of Rome told Pliny the Younger to check out what “those Christians were about”, he dutifully went to spy on them and came back to report:

“These Christians are very strange. They Drown their babies [Infant Baptism] and eat their God!” Eucharistic Belief.

The Didicha proves that the Early Christians were the same Catholics as Todays Catholics

The early Writings Beginning with the Didicha - found in the Dead Sea Scrolls date to about 80 AD at the latest - While Apostle John of the Book of John and the Apocalypses (Revelation) was still alive as was John’s great teacher and friend Early Father of the Church -Polycarp. Polycarp lay hands on Ignatius of Antioch the Bishop of the Antioch Church that Peter had founded, and ordained Ignatius. The Didicha states how to run a local church. It was written in John,s time.

“Baptize in running water. If you have no river - pour on the forehead a little.
If you don’t have that much water - sprinkle.” etc. Not all writings of the early church were labeled scripture. One of the very early popes was even mentioned in scripture (Clement) but his writings didn’t make the cut when the Catholic Church delineated scripture from just Pius writings and put the Bible together in 387. All 72 books in one Library (Bible). However, these early writings, even though not Scripture - show that the Church was definitely “Catholic” as we know it Today. 2000 years later.

Remember, the Didicha is dated almost during the time and maybe Before, the last book of the Bible was written! Isn’t that Amazing? Oh why didn’t they teach me that in Catechism Class! I have a fallen away friend who asks
me the same thing. But I think he was more interested in the girls in the class than really learning about the Church so It would have probably fallen on deaf ears anyway. But that’s another story.

The Catholic Church as Universal - What it Means

They really begin to use the term Catholic - to callthemselves Catholic as a group identifier to separate themselves from the onslaught of heresies immediately in the first centuries. , I believe, when the Church had to fight the early heresies. Arianism, Gnosticism, Monism in the 1st and 2nd centuries. They all called themselves Christians.

Kind of like when the King John separated the English Catholics from the Pope during the English Reformation by calling Their Church the Anglican Catholic Church and The “Other” Catholic Church the “Roman Catholic Church”.

That back-fired, because while the Official name of the church is the “Catholic Church”. Unofficially we of the “Latin Rite” kind of Like the “Roman Catholic Church” name -a lot! Even though there are 22 Rites of the Catholic Church that have small changes in the liturgy and how we decorate our churches, they all call themselves the Catholic Church - and they have every right to. We ALL submit to the Pope and believe in identical beliefs on Faith and Morals. Everything you want to know about the Catholic Church can be found the World Around by looking in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. 1.2 billion around the world united in the Faith Christ preached to us and as the Apostles handed down to us through His Bishops and Popes and Priests and Brothers and Sisters and Us. Catholics.

Robin

Thanks for the information on Pliny the Younger. I will have to look that up! That’s an amazing comment. I’m also not familiar with the Didicha. I will have to look into it.

Oh, I thought might mention that the King of England you mentioned was actually Henry VIII. King John was a few centuries before.

Thanks for posting!

 

[CatherineofA]

Something to ponder…research the history of any and every Christian denomination, and see when they appeared on the time line. Mainline Protestant denominations didn’t exist until the 16th century, founded by a man or group of men 1500 years too late in the game to be Christ and His Apostles.

When these men broke away from the Church (all of the “reformers” were Catholic) they couldn’t even agree with each other about what the Bible was teaching about certain essential things! They knew the Church was wrong, but which of them was right? Luther? Calvin? Zwingli? Knox? None of the above?

I see what you mean with your point. However, Protestants see the Bible passages as timeless. That’s what always existed. Even if denominations came later, the ideas were seen as always there. It wasn’t until the Reformation that they took such a strong root. Prior to that time, those who followed it were small in numbers. If you want to know more about that point of view read a great book by an Evangelical convert to Catholicism. It’s “Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic” by David B. Currie. He really explains how Protestants don’t perceive their ideas as born in the 1500s.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

I see what you mean with your point. However, Protestants see the Bible passages as timeless. That’s what always existed. Even if denominations came later, the ideas were seen as always there. It wasn’t until the Reformation that they took such a strong root. Prior to that time, those who followed it were small in numbers. If you want to know more about that point of view read a great book by an Evangelical convert to Catholicism. It’s “Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic” by David B. Currie. He really explains how Protestants don’t perceive their ideas as born in the 1500s.

I have that David Currie book, it’s excellent - I used to have that title as my signature where it says “Battling Unsinkable Rubber Ducks since '06” now. (An unsinkable rubber duck is someone who will not change their minds no matter how strong the evidence is to the contrary) I am a former Baptist who became Catholic (officially) a little over a year ago. I began studying the Early Church Fathers, you know, the guys who learned about Christianity directly from the mouths of the Apostles, before the Bible as we know it existed. I prayerfully studied the Gospels, seeking for Truth, and it was then that I realized that the Bible is a Catholic book.

Protestants came up with some novel interpretations of Scripture that not only were contrary to what the Church has always taught, but also, under closer scrutiny, are contrary to the Bible itself. I used to ask my Baptist pastors about certain passages that didn’t fit Baptist doctrine, and they were just explained away. When I began to study Catholicism, I found the answers I’d been seeking. As Thomas Howard says at the conclusion of his conversion story in Lead, Kindly Light, “I have come home. I have dropped anchor. I have taken my place in the Church of the apostles, Fathers, confessors, martyrs, bishops, saints, and all the Catholic faithful. I have nothing to ‘protest’.”

PS While I share your admiration of Catherine of Aragon, (very devout Catholic, she was!) I have a bit of a soft spot for Anne Boleyn myself. No woman in history, in my opinion, is more maligned and misunderstood.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I see what you mean with your point. However, Protestants see the Bible passages as timeless. That’s what always existed. Even if denominations came later, the ideas were seen as always there. It wasn’t until the Reformation that they took such a strong root. Prior to that time, those who followed it were small in numbers. If you want to know more about that point of view read a great book by an Evangelical convert to Catholicism. It’s “Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic” by David B. Currie. He really explains how Protestants don’t perceive their ideas as born in the 1500s.

That may be true for most protestants, and it was for me when I was a protestant, but Martin Luther not only cut out 7 books of the bible, but he attempted to change the wording of a passage in Romans. He actually did add the world “alone” after faith in his German translation of Romans. Can’t remember the chapter and verse at the moment, but it’s not hard to find it.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut. Any additional information would be appreciated.

Have you viewed the secular “Jewish” columnist “Ann Landers” who publicly stated that the Roman Catholic church was founded by Jesus Christ himself. Then there are the “Britannica” encyclopedias under “papacy” that clearly lists all the Catholic popes since ST. Peter with unbroken succession.

To find the Catholic church that was underground for the first 300 years, one only hears the whispers, but the apostolic Traditional teachings were well alive, as the first martyred Popes, Saints, and Christians testify to them in their teachings and martyrdom. So looking up the martyrs you will find the sacramental teachings of Catholic church well alive, especially in the Eucharist.

Look up Pliny the younger a pagan Roman who witnessed a Catholic Mass and reported it to the Roman Emperor, the report still exists.

The Roman Emperor Decius (249-251 a.d.) made a recorded public statement after he executed the Catholic Pope Fabian in 250 a.d. quote "I would far rather recieve news of a rival to the throne than of another bishop of Rome."

The Catholic church does not surface until the third century and by the edict of Milan made Catholicism leagl in the Roman Empire by the pagan Roman Ruler Constantine. After this you have well documentation that the Catholic church canonized the bible as we have it today from the fourth century.

It has been so long since the "1980"s when the **Jewish religious nation **produced a document recognizing the founder of the Catholic church was Jesus Christ and presented it to Pope John Paul the Great.

 

[Spirithound]

Thanks for the information. However, I’m looking for history that would be taught in a college classroom. That is, what’s univerally accepted by experts (with or without Christian or Catholic affiliation). Does this book do that?

An argument from “popular vote” isn’t usually the best argument, but I would like to point out that the majority of Christians do accept that the Catholic Church was started by Jesus.

I would also like to examine the question itself. You want to know when the Catholic Church began. I think you need to really learn what makes the Church the Church. The Catholic Church makes the absolutely audacious claim to have received its mandate from Jesus Christ Himself. Jesus commissioned His apostles to preach the Good News across the world, and so these are the bases of the Church: divine mandate and beliefs. The beliefs are the more tangible of the two, since they can be written down.

Regrettably, I don’t have any references you can check out, none by secular historians. I would, however encourage you to read some of the Early Church Fathers; St. Justin Martyr, St. Polycarp, St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Augustine, St. Athanasius, St. Irenaeus, St. Clement of Rome. See what they taught and see if the Catholic Church of today teaches the same thing.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

This is really interesting! Where did you find this and is this referenced anywhere?

I have seen this with my own eyes last November, but you may want to visit here www.catacombe.roma.it/en/spiritualit.html-21k

 

[CatherineofA]

That may be true for most protestants, and it was for me when I was a protestant, but Martin Luther not only cut out 7 books of the bible, but he attempted to change the wording of a passage in Romans. He actually did add the world “alone” after faith in his German translation of Romans. Can’t remember the chapter and verse at the moment, but it’s not hard to find it.

Was this change reflected in the King James Version?

 

[CatherineofA]

Have you viewed the secular “Jewish” columnist “Ann Landers” who publicly stated that the Roman Catholic church was founded by Jesus Christ himself. Then there are the “Britannica” encyclopedias under “papacy” that clearly lists all the Catholic popes since ST. Peter with unbroken succession.

To find the Catholic church that was underground for the first 300 years, one only hears the whispers, but the apostolic Traditional teachings were well alive, as the first martyred Popes, Saints, and Christians testify to them in their teachings and martyrdom. So looking up the martyrs you will find the sacramental teachings of Catholic church well alive, especially in the Eucharist.

Look up Pliny the younger a pagan Roman who witnessed a Catholic Mass and reported it to the Roman Emperor, the report still exists.

The Roman Emperor Decius (249-251 a.d.) made a recorded public statement after he executed the Catholic Pope Fabian in 250 a.d. quote "I would far rather recieve news of a rival to the throne than of another bishop of Rome."

The Catholic church does not surface until the third century and by the edict of Milan made Catholicism leagl in the Roman Empire by the pagan Roman Ruler Constantine. After this you have well documentation that the Catholic church canonized the bible as we have it today from the fourth century.

It has been so long since the "1980"s when the **Jewish religious nation **produced a document recognizing the founder of the Catholic church was Jesus Christ and presented it to Pope John Paul the Great.

That’s interesting. However, I will say that I am on a communication email group for historians and none seemed to think there was proof for the church going back to even the first few centuries. It’s been a while since I’ve read them, but I will have to go back and read their comments in the archives. I will say that secular individuals who have no use for Christianity anyway have to have their comments examined because they are not always neutral.

 

[CatherineofA]

I have seen this with my own eyes last November, but you may want to visit here www.catacombe.roma.it/en/spiritualit.html-21k

Thanks-Do you have anohter link? I couldn’t get this to work. I will try a search.

 

[Peter_J]

That’s interesting. However, I will say that I am on a communication email group for historians and none seemed to think there was proof for the church going back to even the first few centuries. It’s been a while since I’ve read them, but I will have to go back and read their comments in the archives. I will say that secular individuals who have no use for Christianity anyway have to have their comments examined because they are not always neutral.

Although obviously I don’t know the email group in question, it would be reasonable to suppose that it is a lot like this forum: anyone can say just about anything they want. But unless they have something to back it up with …

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Was this change reflected in the King James Version?

No. In fact, in later versions of Luther’s bible he changed it back to the original.

My point was that Luther seemed to have more respect for his doctrine than for scripture.

Any scripture that conflicted with his doctrine was suspect.

The first King James bibles even included the apocrypha, by the way, which I think would be a surprise to many protestants.

 

[ROBIN97]

Thanks-Do you have anohter link? I couldn’t get this to work. I will try a search.

Try This:

www.catacombe.roma.it

Robin

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

That’s interesting. However, I will say that I am on a communication email group for historians and none seemed to think there was proof for the church going back to even the first few centuries. It’s been a while since I’ve read them, but I will have to go back and read their comments in the archives.** I will say that secular individuals who have no use for Christianity anyway have to have their comments examined because they are not always neutral**.

**Gabriel of 12:
Wait a minute? Pagan Romans were not always neutral against Catholic Popes and Saints from the first 300 years? There are records of Catholics being martyred by Pagan Roman Emperors and this does not suffice as proof that the Catholic church existed because they “are not always neutral”?

So the first 300 years of Christian persecution suffered by the blood of Catholic Popes and Catholic Saints do not suffice as historical evidence? Then comes the investigation by Roman officials undercover witnessing the Catholic Mass as we conduct them today from the first centuries who give a "historical record of such events (Mass) being conducted by Catholic Christians for the first 300 years, and then it is historically recorded the Mass was conducted on the “Day of the Sun” Sunday not Saturday.

The question your historians should be asking themselves is? Prove that the Catholic church did not exist from the first 300 years to today? Not discrediting history, and denying the already historical proof.**

If you cant believe the Catholic church existed since apostolic times, you have to prove first that the Catholic church was not there? Then this means you will have to rewrite history from 2000 years later; I dont think false assumptions to recorded history stands the test of time, as does the Catholic church. This wind of heresy will blow away in the wind…

Peace on your journey

 

[Addai]

This is my question-Do you know what event or date or person has been accepted by most historians to be the earliest example of Catholicism? I’m looking for something that’s not been up for argument. Does anyone know when this first person or event occurred? Thanks! To stress, I am looking for what’s been accepted by the community of historians at large that might be taught in a college classroom.

I would cite the ante-nicean Fathers, especially the epistles of Ignatius of Antioch as proof of earliest examples of “Catholicism (AD 70-110)”. Those spell out such things as Apostolic Succession/ the role of the Bishop, the Sacraments etc. are mentioned. Ignatius in a letter or two even makes an appeal “to the bishop of Rome” for support an issue or two.

Of course I’ve seen really irrational behavior from anti-Catholics… Like they will say these works are fictious etc. even when the evidence, scholarly opionon, and early church testimony says otherwise. But even having the best proof in hand doesn’t always help you. Denial can be a powerful thing…