Proving Real Presence

[fxcc]

You need to read fxcc’s posts then. He keeps telling me that Jesus flesh and blood are sacrificed at each Eucharist as foreshadowed by the Passover sacrifice. He says there must be a sacrifice, a feast and a memorial. What am I to believe?

Steve, it’s a serious sin to bear false witness against your neighbor. Can you point me to the post(s) where I’ve said that Jesus is re-sacrificed at each Mass? Or did you so comprehensively fail to understand my point that the **one **sufficient sacrifice of Calvary is re-presented (made present in space and time when we celebrate the Eucharist “in remembrance” of Christ, as per His command) at every Mass - so that **we **too can partake of its Victim, for the forgiveness of our sins and the attainment of our salvation?

Tell me something. How come Christ’s death on Calvary was not viewed merely as a Roman execution (which it was) but rather as a sacrifice by the Jews of the time? “Christ our **Pasch **has been sacrificed…”

The Jews (Christ’s disciples included) knew full well what an atoning sacrifice entailed and how it was conducted. Jesus was killed **outside **the walls of the holy city, not in the **Temple **which was the **only **rightful place for sacrifice in those days. There was no altar at Calvary, no shofar, no prayers, no blessing, no high priest officiating and no **feasting **on the flesh of the victim - always integral to the rituals of sacrifice. So what was it about Jesus’ Crucifixion that led the first Christians to view it as a true and real sacrifice? Do **you **believe Christ’s death was a sacrifice or just a cruel execution? If you believe it was sacrifice, how did Jesus suddenly become our “Pasch” when **all **these basic and defining elements of a Passover sacrifice were **missing **at Calvary? Or are you going to claim that Jesus’ death was just a “symbolic” sacrifice, just as the bread and wine of the Eucharist are supposedly “symbols” - of something or other? This is an inescapable question/dilemma for anyone who doesn’t accept the Eucharist as the real Body and Blood of Jesus. I’ll be happy to explain why - after I’ve heard your take on this.

 

[fxcc]

1. You’ve chided me about a lack of knowledge regarding OT sacrifices and you say this? A male sheep, without blemish, that’s God’s order. My point being if people took the slaughtered animal home, why not offer the best? they gave the cast offs because they didn’t care if they lost them.

Are you serious? How well do you know your Judaeo Christian faith and its laws and traditions? Are you seriously claiming that Jews took lambs to the Temple for sacrifice and then left them there after they had been sacrificed? Huh? That they didn’t take them home each and every time and eat them - as commanded by God Himself? That they were quite happy to “lose” their (blemished) sheep? What do you imagine the priests in the Temple did with these allegedly dumped sheep? Frankly, Steve, I can hardly believe you could even suggest such a nonsense! If the Bible isn’t clear enough for you regarding the sacrifice rituals of the OT, try reading an ancient Jewish Encyclopedia. It’s online these days. Search in it for “Passover” or “sacrifice”. Perhaps you’ll be able to point me to something somewhere (anything, anywhere, in fact), which records that sacrificed animals were abandoned in the Temple! Or perhaps you’ll actually discover that the Jews waited in the massive Temple courtyard while the animals were being sacrificed inside at the altar. That the shofar (an animal horn) was sounded when the slaughter of the (thousands of) lambs was complete, whereupon the High Priest appeared on the temple ramparts and shouted to the crowd “It is finished!” (Yes, exactly as another High Priest once proclaimed at the conclusion of His own sacrifice). That each family then came forward to collect their slaugtered lamb to take home and **eat ** with solemn remembrance (by recounting/repeating aloud) of the narrative of their delivery from bondage, prayers, blessings and thanksgiving, and the singing of Psalms…

1. I agree. But that sacrifice is eternal in its effect, not eternal in its re-enactment, and I have quoted Scriptural support in other posts.QUOTE]

What scripture have you quoted to confirm this theory of yours? I don’t believe you have quoted any. Please repeat it if you have. Indeed, in an earlier post I had pointed out that Christ couldn’t even **be **our eternal High Priest if He didn’t have an eternal **sacrifice **to offer! He’d now be just a “symbolic” High Priest in that case, wouldn’t He? (Amazing how so **many **of the essential things of Christianity suddenly start to become merely “symbolic” once one starts to subscribe to the theologies of Protestantism!). But you chose not to address the point/question I raised…
stevekehl;9843454:

1. We worship God with how we live our lives, we worship God in how we treat people, we worship God in prayer, we worship God in song, we worship God by growing in faith and knowledge. Some people are uncomfortable with this and prefer to worship God in a structured manner. That’s ok, but it is not the only way to worship God.

Again, you’ve skirted the point which I’d made in a previous post about the **imperfection **of our worship - because we are all sinners and rarely fully pure of heart. God desires **perfect **sacrifice (for **only **perfect sacrifice **atones **for our sins). Why, this paragraph that you’ve written almost sounds like we can attain salvation by our own miserable works - or please Him solely by our patently flawed worship! We can’t. Christ’s self offering is the only perfect worship before the throne of God, and in the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass He has mercifully given us the one and only means to join Him in it. The **one **and **only **means of perfect worship, note.

As for how I treat people, how I pray, how I sing to God, how I grow in faith and knowledge, etc… I’ll always be a work in progress at best when it comes to perfection. And so I suspect, will you and every human being on this planet. So think twice before comparing your worship or your good works with the perfect, sufficient and atoning sacrifice of Christ, which He commands all His disciples to enjoin themselves to (“Do **this **in remembrance of me”) - at the altar of a Catholic church, at least once a week, on His holy day.

1. Had Jesus said this will become my body and this will become my blood I wouldn’t be arguing.

He actually did better! He said “This **is **my body.” “This **is **my blood”. “Unless you **eat **my **flesh **and **drink **my blood, you have no life in you.” Still not explicit enough for the doubting Christian, who lives by sight and not by faith in Christ’s emphatic words, is it?

 

[fxcc]

In case anyone should miss the point I was trying to make in my previous post…

As I explained therein, when all the Paschal lambs had been slaughtered in the Temple, one of the priests would sound the shofar (a horn). Then the High Priest would come out onto the Temple wall and shout out to the crowd waiting in the courtyard: “It is finished!”

Naturally, this is what Jesus (the real High Priest) too did just before He died. “It is finished”, He cried. The Lamb of God has been slaughtered (eucharisted) for the life of the world!

What happened after the lambs had been slaughtered? They had to be taken home and eaten - **compulsorily eaten **- with great solemnity and ritual, as prescribed by the Law.

So what is meant to happen now that the Lamb of God has been slaughtered for us?

St Paul tells us in a stunning dozen or so words: “Christ our Passover has been sacrificed, let us therefore keep the feast.”

You see, St Paul had heard from others what Jesus had reportedly said in course of His ministry: “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you.” And St Paul, the very learned Jewish scholar, had correctly understood that Jesus’ death was indeed an atoning Passover sacrifice (of real flesh and blood), and **then **he made the other most profound connection - about what is required to be done with the flesh (and in this extraordinary case, the truly life giving blood) of the sacrifice!

Let’s not hear any more silly propositions about eating and drinking symbols of this or that! God doesn’t feed His children with symbols - or even just scriptural texts. Heaven knows there were tomes enough of scripture even before our True Bread came down from heaven - and, tellingly, omitted to ever give His disciples instructions to write anything down! If scripture was meant to be our only sustenance, Jesus would’ve at least have mentioned in passing the authoring of a Bible, wouldn’t He? He didn’t. And that is that is that!

 

[Nicea325]

In case anyone should miss the point I was trying to make in my previous post…

As I explained therein, when all the Paschal lambs had been slaughtered in the Temple, one of the priests would sound the shofar (a horn). Then the High Priest would come out onto the Temple wall and shout out to the crowd waiting in the courtyard: “It is finished!”

Naturally, this is what Jesus (the real High Priest) too did just before He died. “It is finished”, He cried. The Lamb of God has been slaughtered (eucharisted) for the life of the world!

What happened after the lambs had been slaughtered? They had to be taken home and eaten - **compulsorily eaten **- with great solemnity and ritual, as prescribed by the Law.

So what is meant to happen now that the Lamb of God has been slaughtered for us?

St Paul tells us in a stunning dozen or so words: “Christ our Passover has been sacrificed, let us therefore keep the feast.”

You see, St Paul had heard from others what Jesus had reportedly said in course of His ministry: “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you.” And St Paul, the very learned Jewish scholar, had correctly understood that Jesus’ death was indeed an atoning Passover sacrifice (of real flesh and blood), and **then **he made the other most profound connection - about what is required to be done with the flesh (and in this extraordinary case, the truly life giving blood) of the sacrifice!

Let’s not hear any more silly propositions about eating and drinking symbols of this or that! God doesn’t feed His children with symbols - or even just scriptural texts. Heaven knows there were tomes enough of scripture even before our True Bread came down from heaven - and, tellingly, omitted to ever give His disciples instructions to write anything down! If scripture was meant to be our only sustenance, Jesus would’ve at least have mentioned in passing the authoring of a Bible, wouldn’t He? He didn’t. And that is that is that!

fxcc:

I know what you said and I have no doubts of your explanations… Steve is just one lost puppy…

 

[stevekehl]

]Steve, it’s a serious sin to bear false witness against your neighbor. Can you point me to the post(s) where I’ve said that Jesus is re-sacrificed at each Mass? Or did you so comprehensively fail to understand my point that the **one **sufficient sacrifice of Calvary is re-presented (made present in space and time when we celebrate the Eucharist “in remembrance” of Christ, as per His command) at every Mass - so that **we **too can partake of its Victim, for the forgiveness of our sins and the attainment of our salvation?

Post #128
“In Mal 1:11 God prophecies the PERPETUAL offering to Him (“from the rising of the sun even unto its setting”) of a “CLEAN oblation” (or “PURE offering” in some translations) - the ONLY sacrifice acceptable to Him in atonement for mankind’s sins. We say that that is none other than Christ - the only pure, unblemished Lamb of God”. Doesn’t this mean offering Christ as a sacrifice again and again?
Post #139
You said there must be a Sacrifice-Sacrament, Communion-Sacrament, and Presence-Sacrament. So is there a sacrifice component the the Eucharist or not? If there is no sacrifice explain to me how His flesh is present if it has not been broken again? If His blood is present how is it not being shed again?

Tell me something. How come Christ’s death on Calvary was not viewed merely as a Roman execution (which it was) but rather as a sacrifice by the Jews of the time? “Christ our **Pasch **has been sacrificed…”

It was viewed that way until Jesus rose again. The disciples new found courage and determination to preach the Gospel is evidence of the resurrection. On Sunday they were hiding, fearing for their lives until Christ appeared to them in His glorified body. It wasn’t until Jesus post-resurrection appearance that the apostles remembered what He had said about being killed by the Gentiles (Romans) and would rise after three days. So the Passover foreshadowing was not immediately apparent to the apostles.

The Jews (Christ’s disciples included) knew full well what an atoning sacrifice entailed and how it was conducted. Jesus was killed **outside **the walls of the holy city, not in the **T*emple ***which was the **only **rightful place for sacrifice in those days. There was no altar at Calvary, no shofar, no prayers, no blessing, no high priest officiating and no **feasting **on the flesh of the victim - always integral to the rituals of sacrifice.

After all the work you’ve done comparing Jesus sacrifice to Passover, now you say the two had almost nothing in common, aside from the sacrifice. Could it mean that rituals and constraints on worshiping God no longer applied?

So what was it about Jesus’ Crucifixion that led the first Christians to view it as a true and real sacrifice? Do **you **believe Christ’s death was a sacrifice or just a cruel execution? If you believe it was sacrifice, how did Jesus suddenly become our “Pasch” when **all **these basic and defining elements of a Passover sacrifice were **missing **at Calvary?

Jesus didn’t suddenly become our Paschal Lamb, John the Baptist gave Him that title when Jesus began His ministry, Isaiah called Him a lamb brought to slaughter, in fact His death is foretold in Genesis 3:15. It wasn’t the manner of His death that is significant, the Romans crucified thousands, it was the person. The OT says the messiah would die on a tree, and cursed is anyone who dies on a tree. Jesus bore our curse and paid the price. But as I said, the apostles didn’t understand this until after the resurrection, it was explained to them (road to Emmaus).

To be continued

 

[stevekehl]

Or are you going to claim that Jesus’ death was just a “symbolic” sacrifice,

Of course not. That would be a short discussion.
“You know, Jesus died for our sins.”
“Yeah.”

just as the bread and wine of the Eucharist are supposedly “symbols” - of something or other? This is an inescapable question/dilemma for anyone who doesn’t accept the Eucharist as the real Body and Blood of Jesus. I’ll be happy to explain why - after I’ve heard your take on this.

Don’t make the mistake of thinking symbolic means shallow or casual.
True, Jesus death and resurrection are the linchpin of our faith, but Christ’s sacrifice extends beyond His torture and death. Imagine what Jesus left to dwell among us. Can you fathom leaving the glory of heaven, the eternal, constant, face-to-face communion with the Father and Holy Spirit; the presence of angels created by your hand, the unadulterated purity and holiness of that place? He left all that for you and me. I literally can’t comprehend the extent of His love, and for what? For us? Stupid, impetuous, impatient, squabbling, deceitful, petty, ungrateful, sinful creatures. He came here to be too cold, too hot, to trip and fall learning to walk, to get cuts and bruises, to get the flu, and stomach aches, headaches and sore throats, to smash His fingers, get splinters and blisters, to get sawdust in His eyes, to cut his hands and arms and legs with tools as He learned to help Joseph, to go to bed with sore, achy muscles, to get pimples and have His voice crack as He grew up, to face ridicule, to be lonely, to long to return to the Father, to walk long roads to the next town, to sleep on the ground, go to bed hungry, to preach and heal until He was exhausted then do it again, to tell His apostles the same lessons over and over as they struggled to understand, to keep going even though He knew the cross was His destination, to mourn friends, to be threatened with death, to have His family think He was crazy, to be kicked out of the synagogue where He grew up, to love the people who mocked Him, threatened Him, kicked Him out of the synagogue where He grew up, and nailed Him to the cross. I can only hope to understand that love one day, after the final day. These are the things I think about when I take communion. Don’t presume to tell me that my relationship with God isn’t real because I don’t worship like you.
So, you’ve asked a lot of questions, let me ask you one. Am I going to hell (or at least not heaven) because I don’t believe in the Real Presence?
God Bless.

 

[po18guy]

So, you’ve asked a lot of questions, let me ask you one. Am I going to hell (or at least not heaven) because I don’t believe in the Real Presence?
God Bless.

The Catholic Church has declared no one, not even Judas, to be in hell - so great is God’s mercy. You send yourself there only if you believe in His Presence, then reject it.

 

[stevekehl]

Just a few thoughts.

In case anyone should miss the point I was trying to make in my previous post…
As I explained therein, when all the Paschal lambs had been slaughtered in the Temple, one of the priests would sound the shofar (a horn). Then the High Priest would come out onto the Temple wall and shout out to the crowd waiting in the courtyard: “It is finished!”
Naturally, this is what Jesus (the real High Priest) too did just before He died. “It is finished”, He cried.

You just posted how little Christ’s death had in common with the Passover rituals.

The Lamb of God has been slaughtered (eucharisted) for the life of the world!

Eucharistos is Greek for Thanksgiving.

What happened after the lambs had been slaughtered? They had to be taken home and eaten - **compulsorily eaten **- with great solemnity and ritual, as prescribed by the Law.

Except for the Essenes, who, you pointed out in post 113, did not eat the Passover lamb. Which was quickly jumped on by some other people.

So what is meant to happen now that the Lamb of God has been slaughtered for us?

It means life more abundant. A life transformed by a personal, intimate, sacred relationship with God.

St Paul tells us in a stunning dozen or so words: “Christ our Passover has been sacrificed, let us therefore keep the feast.”

Out of context. that whole chapter is about putting away the sinful life we lived before salvation through Christ. But here are the two verses you chopped up to make your point.
1Corinthians 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth So Paul is talking symbolically here. The unleavened bread is a symbol of purity, without the leaven of sin.

You see, St Paul had heard from others what Jesus had reportedly said in course of His ministry: “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you.” And St Paul, the very learned Jewish scholar, had correctly understood that Jesus’ death was indeed an atoning Passover sacrifice (of real flesh and blood), and **then **he made the other most profound connection - about what is required to be done with the flesh (and in this extraordinary case, the truly life giving blood) of the sacrifice!

You get all that from Scripture, then deride Scripture in the next paragraph.

Let’s not hear any more silly propositions about eating and drinking symbols of this or that!

It’s not a symbol of “this or that.” It is a memorial to the death of Christ, treat it with a little respect.

God doesn’t feed His children with symbols

Like statues, or relics, or icons, or cathedrals, or rosaries, or saint’s medallions, or feast days, or genuflection? I would say people are fed spiritually by all these things.

or even just scriptural texts. Heaven knows there were tomes enough of scripture even before our True Bread came down from heaven and, tellingly, omitted to ever give His disciples instructions to write anything down! If scripture was meant to be our only sustenance, Jesus would’ve at least have mentioned in passing the authoring of a Bible, wouldn’t He? He didn’t. And that is that is that!

Did Jesus say Trinity? of bishop? or deacon? or confession? or pennance? or priest? Do you think Jesus was surprised by the writings of the apostles? Do you even believe the NT was written by apostles and eyewitnesses? I guess we should stop studying the Bible
Jesus didn’t tell His apostles to write anything down, maybe they were writing already.
This is a little off topic, but, if someone only had the Bible to read, could they come to a saving knowledge of Jesus?

 

[stevekehl]

The Catholic Church has declared no one, not even Judas, to be in hell - so great is God’s mercy. You send yourself there only if you believe in His Presence, then reject it.

I’m not being a smart alek here, but i keep hearing that unless I literally eat the flesh and drink the blood I take no part in Christ, He is not in me, I am not in Him. Is this not required for salvation? According to church teaching, I must observe the real presence and if not I have no eternal life. Is this wrong? If it is, what are we discussing here? Does the church teach that the real presence is necessary for salvation?

 

[po18guy]

I’m not being a smart alek here, but i keep hearing that unless I literally eat the flesh and drink the blood I take no part in Christ, He is not in me, I am not in Him. Is this not required for salvation? According to church teaching, I must observe the real presence and if not I have no eternal life. Is this wrong? If it is, what are we discussing here? Does the church teach that the real presence is necessary for salvation?

There is no evidence that Dismas, the repentant thief on the cross, was even baptized. That is an example of exceptional salvation. You and I are intended to be partakers of the normative means of salvation. This includes faith as well the Apostolic teachings and practices of Baptism and the Lord’s Supper, which Paul says is a participation in the Body and Blood of Christ. If you or I unworthily participate in the Body and Blood of the Lord at the Lord’s Supper, we are guilty of the Body and Blood of the Lord. Nothing symbolic there. Just as the affront to the Lord is real, so will our death be real if we profane the Eucharist.

Jesus promised that He would be with us to the end of time. Yet, scripture says that two or three must be gathered in His Name before He is among them. How are you, Steve, supposed to commune with the Lord, since you must have a personal relationship with Him? “My flesh is real food and my Blood is real drink.”

At the Supper, the last thing He did with the twelve was to say the blessing, then hand the Apostles what appeared to be bread and wine. Yet, the sovereign Lord, who cannot deceive or be deceived, told them that it was not bread and wine, but had become His Body and Blood. Since they already had faith, this went beyond faith - beyond the symbolic. We, you and I, are intended to be partakers of the Divine Nature, and the Eucharist is the normative means of this.

In rejecting the Eucharist, you may still somehow be justified - by faith - but faith requires belief in everything Jesus said and did, not just the easy parts. But, look: Jesus taught the Apostles - even commanded them - to eat and drink, believing not that they were eating bread and drinking wine, but that they were participating in the Body and Blood of Christ Himself. Should not you and I, as those who love Christ, do the same?

Though the tradition that you follow does not believe in Christ’s presence, neither does that tradition trace back to Christ. Sadly, it is historical revisionism, made after those who departed from the Apostolic Church lost the priesthood and the ability to consecrate the bread and wine. Scripture was then re-interpreted to make that physical and spiritual act merely symbolic.

That same rebellion also lead to a re-defining of baptism to be merely a sign - a symbol - even though it is clear that it cleanses of sin and has actual value. In like manner to every thing that Jesus commanded, the Eucharist has actual, not merely symbolic, value. Just as Baptism has been re-defined and stopped by some, the Eucharist has also been re-defined and stopped.

Saint Augustine of Hippo teaches us: “Undertstanding is the reward given by faith. Do not try to understand in order to believe, but believe in order to understand.”

It’s all a matter of faith and belief.

 

[fxcc]

Post #128
“In Mal 1:11 God prophecies the PERPETUAL offering to Him (“from the rising of the sun even unto its setting”) of a “CLEAN oblation” (or “PURE offering” in some translations) - the ONLY sacrifice acceptable to Him in atonement for mankind’s sins. We say that that is none other than Christ - the only pure, unblemished Lamb of God”.
Doesn’t this mean offering Christ as a sacrifice again and again?

Yes and no. We **do **offer Christ daily, at each Mass, to the absolute delight and satisfaction of Our Father, for Christ our brother, the First Born of God, the Holy One of God, is the **only **perfect offering we sinners can make to God. (Thank God Christ is now ours to offer! Everything that God’s children had to offer before Christ proved to be sorely tainted and/or insufficient before Him!) Okay. So much for offering the unblemished Lamb of God as our (only) perfect worship. (“God Himself will provide the lamb” - Gen 22:8)

As far as the actual “sacrificing” of Christ goes, as the Catholic Church teaches: Christ’s sacrifice (the total self-oblation of Himself to His Father) was both a temporal event (in space and time at Calvary) **and is also **an eternal (time-transcending) offering. Christ’s offering of Himself to His Father (confirmed in St John’s vision of the slain lamb standing **before **the throne of God - in this oblation mode, not seated **on **the throne, as we normally expect) continues ceaselessly - in atonement for our (continuing ) sins. And the Most Holy **Sacrifice **of the Mass, (instituted by Christ Himself when He commanded the Apostles at His New Passover meal to “do this in remembrance” of Him), is our **principal **means to enjoin our own lives and works to that perfect, atoning oblation of Christ - an oblation which is made **present **on our sacred altars at each Mass **precisely **for **this **purpose - that we may be enjoined to it. Of course, in its eternal dimension it is no longer a **bloody **sacrifice, as it was as Calvary. The blood of Christ has been physically poured out for us, and His body broken, once for all.

Nevertheless, this most blessed and eternal mystery of Christ’s selfless loving/self giving remains fully, truly and eternally sacrifice. Christ is eternal. His love is eternal. His laying down of Himself for His friends is eternal - He **still **reaches “down” to us from heaven, still “drawing all things unto” Himself. His High Priesthood is eternal. And guess what? His (self-)sacrifice/oblation for us (which is the ultimate expression of His love for us) is likewise ceaseless… eternal! It has to be! It is the very thing that defines for us who Christ our merciful Savior is, it is the very thing that defines for us a God Who **is **Eternal Love! God’s essence is not in His power. God’s essence is not in His wisdom. God’s essence is in His selfless (aka self-sacrificing) love! He didn’t make just a one-time temporal demonstration of it! No, He makes an eternal, ongoing, gift of it to us and for us! It overarches **everything **else that He does!

As I’ve tried to explain before, if now **we **are to also offer perfect homage to the Father, in **perfect **love, as only Christ can - flawed and selfish creatures that we perenially tend to be - then it **has **to be in, with, and through Christ. And what is the peak of Christ’s perfect homage to His Father? Why it is His ultimate sacrifice, His laying down, His total emptying, of Himself, out of total obedience to His Father’s Will, even unto death on a Cross! Can Christ die again? Of course not! Is Christ now beyond the realm of suffering and pain? Of course He is! **But **does Christ still suffer when we sin? Do we truly hurt Him when we sin? Of course we do! Is that a paradox? No, it isn’t. Christ suffers only mystically now, through His Body, which is the Church. Us. Christ’s suffering and our suffering are now joined, united, one. Christ’s sacrifice and our sacrifice are now joined, united, one. We now “make up in our bodies that which is lacking in the sufferings of Christ”. Christ does not offer sacrifice on His own. Nor do we. We are now one with Christ. Thus, unless we partake of (the flesh and blood of) Christ’s sacrifice (whereby we are subsumed into Him and presented in Him and by Him as a **pleasing **offering before the throne of the Father), we are “karet”, “excommunicated”, not in “Holy Communion” with God - neither in the truest sense, nor in the fullest degree.

In the Eucharist, on the other hand, we are “grafted” into Christ. His own life, the Trinitarian life, eternal life, is infused into our souls. Just as much as our body requires blood for physical life, so our soul requires the blood of Christ (Who is the Life!) for its spiritual life. This is why St Paul warned the doubters among the first Christians that many of them were “sick and dying” (spiritually, of course) because they were receiving the Eucharist unworthily, without discerning (it as) the body of Christ (i.e. refusing to give their assent of **faith **to the real, life giving Presence of their God and Savior in the accidents of ordinary bread and wine).

You’ve written a lot Steve, which, for me, demonstrates your interest and sincerity in getting to the bottom (or is it the source, centre and summit, really ) of this issue. I’ll respond to your points in bits and pieces as time and energy permits. Right now I’ve had enough of typing with my two forefingers! :manvspc:

 

[fxcc]

QUOTE=stevekehl;9852216]
It (Jesus’ death) was viewed that way (as merely an execution) until Jesus rose again.

After all the work you’ve done comparing Jesus sacrifice to Passover, now you say the two had almost nothing in common, aside from the sacrifice. Could it mean that rituals and constraints on worshiping God no longer applied?

Jesus didn’t suddenly become our Paschal Lamb, John the Baptist gave Him that title when Jesus began His ministry, Isaiah called Him a lamb brought to slaughter, in fact His death is foretold in Genesis 3:15. It wasn’t the manner of His death that is significant, the Romans crucified thousands, it was the person.

The **only **way that Jesus’ death on Calvary can be construed as a (Passover) sacrifice is if it is tied in with what happened the night before, at the last supper. That is where the redemptive sacrifice of Christ actually began, with all the rubrics of a Passover - a salvation narrative, prayers and blessings, “feasting” (on the Victim) and the singing of psalms. Once you consider the last supper and the crucifixion as elements of the one interconnected drama, you start to see many elements, not only of a Passover meal, but **also **of the other great Jewish festivals - the Todah Sacrifice, the Feast of Unleavened Bread and the Day of Atonement (more on these later).

Totally contrary to your current understanding, the **manner **of Jesus’ Passion and Death was most significant (as, of course, was the fact of Jesus Himself being the Divine Victim of the sacrifice). Jesus’ entire life, ministry and Passion was about gathering/uniting - in Himself - the tribes of Israel, who had not only been divorced from God, but also from each other. The high point of this mission was precisely in Christ’s Passion and Death: “When I am lifted up, I shall draw all things unto myself”.

This is why Jesus had always reached out to the outcast (the lame and the blind and the leper), the scribes and pharisees, sinners, prostitutes, the Samaritans, etc… And, in the last supper, He reached out to the Essenes who were faithful to God, but would not enter the temple for animal sacrifice because it had become so corrupt (recall Jesus’ cleansing of the place a few days before His death, despite knowing that it would not stand for much longer and that sacrifice there would actually cease - to be replaced by His new Sacrifice). Further, if you study in depth the events surrounding Jesus’ crucifixion, you’ll find scores of little things that were actually part of traditional, long-standing Jewish liturgy. Off the top of my head, I’ll offer a few examples which you might wish to think about. It’s only when we understand these things that we understand how comprehensively and perfectly Jesus fulfilled and refreshed all the Jewish sacrificial rites in His own unsurpassable sacrifice.

Firstly, every sacrifice of the Jews (as in many other cultures) had a donative (gift-like) character, because at every sacrificial meal the Deity was considered to be present, to claim His own portion, rightly offered to Him. (Indeed, even nowadays, at every Seder meal, Jews place an empty chair at the table - for “Elijah the Prophet” who is supposed to invisibly partake of the meal. The point is that God Himself has always been deemed to be really and truly present at the ritual banquet (the thanksgiving/eucharistic meal) of His family. This is why the bread of the meal was actually referred to as the “bread of God” (see Lev 21:6, 21:17, 21:21-22). In the case of animal sacrifice, the blood of the animal (which represented life/the “soul” of the animal) was given to God, by being sprinkled on the altar and poured below it. Nonetheless, these offerings, even though mandated by God Himself, were never sufficient or pleasing before Him. Indeed He detested them and raged against them. “Shall I eat the flesh of bullocks? or shall I drink the blood of goats?” - Psalm 49:13. What God was saying is that ordinary bread or animal flesh (or even animal blood) was of little value, as it could not give real (eternal) life. He, the Lord and Giver of Life, was not present **in **these things. That is why our forefathers “ate manna in the desert and died”.

Now, when Jesus took bread in His hands at the last supper, and prayed the blessing (offering) over it, it was **no ordinary bread **that He was offering to His Father. This time - for the first time ever in human history - it was the perfect (and perfectly pleasing) offering, the oblation of Jesus’ own self, His own life-giving Body and Blood (which would sacrificed the next day). "This is my body, which will be given up for you… this is my blood which will be shed… " Now do you see why Jesus had referred to Himself as the “true bread” come down from heaven? True as in truly pleasing to the Father Who would accept it and **would **find it sufficient! And true as in truly giving us life. “Unless you eat this bread, you have no life in you!”

Note here how wonderfully the elements of the last supper had been arranged by God. There was both, the Essene bread and wine, and the traditional lamb’s flesh and blood (the flesh and blood of the Lamb of God Himself!) This arrangement was profoundly in line with God gathering the tribes (and their liturgies) together at one great Feast, at the banquet table of the Lord Himself! The banquet which we will enjoy in all its fullness in heaven, as we “feast” our senses on the Beatific Vision! The Eucharist is nothing else if not a pre-taste of that eternal banquet, a concealed union with God Himself!

[continued…]

 

[fxcc]

Now for some of those elements of the Passion which were directly parts of the great Jewish liturgies. You decide how “symbolic” or “metaphorical” these were, or how “literal” in fact, their enactment/fulfillment was in the Passion of Christ. Some of the background explanations are a bit lengthy, but they need to be, given that so few Christians (Catholics included) have ever really studied for themselves the Sacrifice of Jesus against a fully Jewish liturgical tradition.

My hope in offering these explanations to you, Steve, is that one day you’ll see how literally Jesus fulfilled every significant Jewish liturgical/sacrificial ritual in the rites of His own Passion and Death. And that, in turn, might hopefully lead you to see how, what He made available to us at His sacred Passover meal, is literally His own flesh and blood (not symbols, not scripture, not words, not teachings or parables or wisdoms, all of which are undoubtedly “profitable” to our salvation but **insufficient ** - as they have always been - for our attainment of true “Life” at day’s end).

TODAH SACRIFICE

An old Rabbinic teaching says: “In the coming Messianic age all sacrifices will cease, but the thank offering (todah) will never cease” (refer the Pesiqta as quoted in Hartmut Gese, Essays On Biblical Theology, Minneapolis, Augsburg Publishing House, 1981, 133).

A todah sacrifice would be offered by someone whose life had been delivered from great peril, such as disease or the sword. While the Passover sacrifice was to be held once annually, the Todah sacrifice could be held as often as desired, even daily.

The redeemed person would show his gratitude to God by gathering his closest friends and family for a todah meal. The **lamb **would be **sacrificed **in the Temple, and the **bread **for the meal would be **consecrated **the moment the lamb was sacrificed. The **bread and meat, along with wine, would constitute the elements **of the sacred todah meal, which would be accompanied by prayers and songs of thanksgiving, such as Psalm 116.

What does the word “todah” mean? It is Hebrew for “thanksgiving”, although it also connotes a confession of praise in addition to gratitude. For example, Leah gave thanks to God when she bore her fourth son, and so she named him Yehudah - or Judah, which is the verbal form of todah - to give thanks.

There are many examples in the OT of people offering todah - thanks - to God.

Jonah, while in the belly of the whale, vows to offer up a todah sacrifice in the Temple if he is delivered (Jonah 2:10-11).

King Hezekiah offers up a todah hymn upon recovering from a life-threatening illness (Isaiah 38:9,19).

However, the best example of todah sacrifice and song is found in the life of King David.

After David had defeated the last Canaanite stronghold, he decided to bring the Ark of the Covenant up to Jerusalem. The bringing of the Ark to Jerusalem was the occasion of a great national todah festival. The sacrifices were “peace offerings”, and the todah was the most important and common peace offering. All the elements of the todah were present. For example, David offered **bread and wine along with the meat of the sacrifices **(1 Chronicles 16:1-4).

David had the Levites lead the people in todah hymns, viz., psalms of thanksgiving (1 Chronicles 16:4) (Now, can you recall another group of people who, after a meal of bread and wine, along with the “meat of sacrifice”, with thanksgiving, went into a Garden singing Psalms? )

At this pivotal point in Israel’s story, David not only changes the location of the ark, but he also transforms Israel’s liturgy. At the todah celebration that brought the ark into Jerusalem, David gave the Levites a new mandate - their **primary **job was to “invoke, to thank, and to praise the Lord”.

The Hebrew word for “invoke” (i.e. invoke the presence of God) is zakar, which literally means to remember - the noun form signifying “memorial” (zikkaron). So… if God wished to be invoked daily by His people, to be really and truly present to them (to be their “Immanuel”) “even unto the end of the age”, He might institute a sacred rite for them, saying, “Do this in remembrance of me!” Right?

The Levites were to give thanks and praise to God “continually” (1 Chronicles 16: 37, 40). This unceasing adoration was to characterize the Temple liturgy as a todah liturgy - a liturgy of **daily thanksgiving. ** (Anyone thinking daily Mass yet? )

The importance of the todah as a backdrop for Jesus and the last supper comes into sharp focus when we realize that in Jesus’ day the Greek word that would best translate the Hebrew todah was eucharistia, which also means “thanksgiving.” From the earliest Christian sources we learn that the celebration of the Lord’s meal, or what we call the Mass, was known by Christians as the Eucharist. After all, at the Last Supper Jesus took the bread and wine and gave “thanks” (eucharistia) over them.

When Jesus takes the bread, breaks it, and declares thanksgiving (eucharistia), He is performing the **key function **of **both **the todah and Passover - giving thanks for deliverance. But here Jesus is not simply looking back at Israel’s history of salvation. He is looking ahead to His own Death and Resurrection. In other words, Jesus (as our High Priest, and on our behalf) is giving thanks to the Father for His love for us and for the new life to be granted to us via His own Death and Resurrection.

[continued…]

 

[fxcc]

FEAST OF UNLEAVEN BREAD

The Feast of Unleaven Bread was closely allied to (or rather, a continuation of) the Passover feast. It began the night after the Passover, and celebrated Israel’s deliverance from bondage in Egypt.

A morning and evening sacrifice was offered for seven days. During this period only unleavened bread was eaten with the meat of the sacrifices (Leviticus 23: 5-8, Exodus 12: 19-20).

The unleavened bread used in the Passover **and ********during the Feast of Unleaven Bread is called “Matzo” or “Mazzah”. It is also called “the bread of affliction”, because of its association with Egyptian slavery.

I might’ve already mentioned in an earlier post (sorry, I can’t remember and can’t be bothered to check! ) that the Mazzah - the “bread of God” - was striped during baking to remind the Jews of the lashes they had received while in bondage in Egypt, and that it was pierced to prevent it from rising like leavened bread (leaven representing sin/pride).

Well, Jesus the True Bread of Life was also subject to the lash and He was also pierced - by Longinus’ lance. There was nothing metaphorical or symbolic about this - these things happened literally, just as Isaiah (53:5) had prohesied: “He was pierced for our trangressions, by His stripes we are healed.” Elsewhere in scripture: “they shall look upon me whom they have pierced” - Zechariah 12:10, "They shall look on him whom they pierced” - John 19:37, “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed” - 1 Peter 2:24.

There was nothing “symbolic” about the striping and the piercing of Jesus, because there was nothing “symbolic” about the **True Bread ** - which was "baked with striping and piercing” in the fire of love for us at Golgotha!

God fed the Israelites with manna in the wilderness. He feeds Christians with the “Bread of Life”. It is no co-incidence that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, the city whose name means “House of Bread”.

“This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever” - John 6:59.

“Amen, amen I say to you; Moses gave you not bread from heaven, but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the **bread of God ** (remember this phrase in my preceding post about the todah sacrifice?) is that which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life to the world. They said therefore unto him: Lord, give us always this bread. And Jesus said to them: I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger: and he that believeth in me shall never thirst” - John 6:32-35.

“I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world” - John 6:51-52.

Note that **not even once ******in all these sayings does Jesus allude to His word, or scripture, or anything else other than Himself, being the (striped, pierced and afflicted) Bread of Life which we are to eat if we are not to hunger! Or to become “sick and dying”, as St Paul put it.

[continued…]**

 

[fxcc]

DAY OF ATONEMENT

This particular post might be of special interest to any Catholics following this thread, as it explains the background to some of our liturgical traditions and canon law.

The Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) is one of the holiest days of the year for the Jewish people. Its central themes are atonement and repentance. Jews traditionally observe this holy day with a 25-hour period of fasting and intensive prayer, often spending most of the day in synagogue services. Yom means “day” in Hebrew and Kippur comes from a root that means “to cover or hide”; a secondary meaning is “to obliterate (sin)” and hence “to expiate”.

The Day of Atonement is the keystone of the sacrificial system of post-exilic Judaism. In the belief that the great national misfortunes of the past were due to the people’s sins, the Jews of post-exilic times strove to bring on the Messianic period of redemption by strictly and minutely guarding against all manner of sin. The land being defiled by the sin of the people, the pollution must be removed lest the Divine Presence withdraw from among them. Hence the sacrificial system with its sin and guilt-offerings. While provision was made for the expiation of the wrong-doings of individuals by private offerings, the public sacrifices atoned for the sins of the community.

Yom Kippur involves fasting. Total abstention from food and drink usually begins 20 minutes before sundown (called tosefet Yom Kippur, literally “Addition to Yom Kippur”), and ends after nightfall the following day. Although the fast is required of all healthy adults, it is waived in the case of certain medical conditions. Boys under the age of 13, and girls under 12, are not required to fast from sundown to sun-up.

Code of Canon Law
1251 Abstinence and fast are to be observed on Ash Wednesday and on the Friday of the Passion and Death of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
1252 All persons who have completed their fourteenth year are bound by the law of abstinence; all adults are bound by the law of fast up to the beginning of their sixtieth year.

It is forbidden to indulge in any unnecessary pleasures on the Day of Atonement; one should spend the day meditating on the significance of the fast and examining one’s own sins.

Lenten and Easter Triduum Regulations:
All members of the Christian Faithful are encouraged to do acts of penance and charity during the Lenten season beyond what is prescribed by law.

All members of the Christian Faithful are encouraged to avail themselves of the Sacrament of Reconciliation, since it is a true encounter with the loving, forgiving Savior, Who takes away the burden of our sin, forgives our failing and is the source of peace and joy.

For certain sins repentance gives a respite, and the Day of Atonement atones; but he who sins against his neighbor must first be reconciled to him. (Talmud, Yoma 85b).

This is reflected in the Sacrament of Reconciliation and in the Sign of Peace which we offer to each other at Mass. "If therefore thou offer thy gift at the altar, and there thou remember that thy brother hath any thing against thee; leave there thy offering before the altar, and go first to be reconciled to thy brother: and then coming thou shalt offer thy gift: - Matthew 5:23-24.

I haven’t taken the trouble to touch on these three significant Jewish festivals for nothing. In my next post I will provide some instances of how some of the key rituals of each of these three great festivals - in addition to the Passover - were enacted with stunning fidelity in the Passion and Death of Our Lord. The idea, of course, is to demonstrate the reality of God’s true Presence in the Eucharist in its clarifying and confirming Judeo-Christian liturgical context.

[continued…]******

 

[fxcc]

THE PASSION OF OUR LORD

On the tenth day of the first month of the year (called Nisan) the Hebrews were to purchase a lamb for each household, without blemish, a male of the first year, from the sheep or from the goats. Kept until the **fourteenth ***day, this lamb was to be killed at eve.

Thus, if a Passover sacrifice was scheduled, say, for a Thursday night (i.e. around “Suppertime” on a Thursday), an unblemished lamb would need to be purchased with much care, and brought with love, excitement and rejoicing into the Jewish home on the preceding Sunday:
10th day: Palm Sunday (day of acquisition and welcoming of the Lamb with shouts of “Hosanna”)
11th day: Monday
12th day: Tuesday
13th day: Wednesday
14th day: Maundy Thursday (night of commencement of Passover sacrifice)

Prior to executing the sacrifice ritual, the priest had to undergo sanctification by an extensive ritual of bathing, washing****, changing of garments and conjugal abstinence.

He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet?”
Jesus replied, "You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.”“No,” said Peter, “you shall never wash my feet.”
Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.”
“Then, Lord,” Simon Peter replied, “not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!”
Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.” – John 13: 6-10

The Passover (Pesah Dorot) meal was eaten in a reclining position. While eating the mazzah and drinking the wine, the position of free men (i.e. reclining on the left side against cushions) was obligatory on all male participants (“hasibah”). .

The Mishnah details the four questions one was obligated to ask on the night of the seder. It was customary for the youngest child present to recite the four questions, with the elder(s) responding.

Q4: On all other nights we eat either sitting up or reclining; why on this night do we all recline?
A4: To be comfortable, and to remind us that once we were slaves, and now we are free.

"So when he had washed their feet (and) put his garments back on and reclined at table again, he said to them, ‘Do you realize what I have done for you’?”**** - John 13:12

“One of his disciples, the one whom Jesus loved, was reclining at Jesus’ side…”**** – John 13:23

“(Now) none of those reclining at table realized why he said this to him.”**** - John 13:28

It is no co-incidence that this Passover ritual of reclining is also mentioned in the miracle of the feeding of the people with loaves and fish. Also, interestingly, that is the only miracle of Jesus (apart from the Resurrection) which is contained in all four Gospels (Matthew 14:13–21, Mark 6:31-44, Luke 9:10-17 and John 6:5-15).

It was considered a duty to narrate the story of the Exodus during the celebration of the Passover.

But Jesus did not do this at the Passover on the night before He died; He did not mention the Exodus narrative of old.

Instead He prayed a long High Priestly prayer that, in essence, spoke of man’s redemption by intimate communion with God (and union with each other): “that they may be one, as we also are one: I **in **them, and thou in me; that they may be made perfect in one” – John 17:22-23

This was indeed the ultimate mission of Christ – to gather all the tribes as one **in **Himself. In the Eucharist.

[continued…]*

 

[fxcc]

THE PASSION OF OUR LORD continued…

In the first Exodus of the Israelites from Egypt, there occurred a **“Night of Watching”. **This was the night preceding the day of the flock’s departure - the night before the flocks of God’s people were set free from captivity. God commanded that this night must be commemorated for all time.

In the subsequent Passover (Pesach Dorot) festivals the Night of Watching entailed members of the Jewish household keeping watch over the lamb which was to be sacrificed the next day, in case some enemy should try to harm it. A blemished or injured lamb would be unfit for sacrifice.

At Gethsemane, according to the visions of several mystics, Satan, the enemy of Christ (the unblemished Lamb of God), did his very best, by all manner of accusations and temptations, to cause injury to the soul of Christ, so that when He was “put to the test” (the next morning) for sinlessness, He might be found wanting as a proper victim for sacrifice.

Thus, Christ admonishes the disciples who are sleeping in the garden, and not keeping guard over their Lamb by vigilant prayer: *“So you could not **keep watch **with me for one hour?” *– Matt 26:40.

All through the next day Christ was examined, “put to the test” for any imperfections. False accusations were made against Him and several witnesses brought against Him, but none prevailed. Finally, the Lamb of God was certified without blemish, able to be sacrificed as a “clean oblation”.

"Pilate said to them: Take him you, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him.”

On the Day of Atonement two goats were presented before the High Priest. At the Eastern (nikanor) gate, the High Priest drew lots from a lottery box over two goats. One was selected “for the Lord,” and the other was deignated “for Azazel.” The High Priest sacrificed the goat chosen for the Lord.

He then tied a **scarlet **band around the horns of the goat chosen “for Azazel.”

“And stripping him, they put a scarlet cloak about him.”

Upon the goat selected for Azazel, the High Priest laid (by prayer) all the iniquities of Israel. Then it was chased away into the wilderness, to “take away the sins of the world”.

"All we like sheep have gone astray, every one hath turned aside into his own way: and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.” – Isaiah 53:6

As the goat made its way towards the wilderness of Mount Azazel, there would be women gathered along the roadside watching its progress.

"Many women were there, watching from a distance.” – Matt 27:55

Should the goat slow down or stop, the people would pull its hairs/beard to make it run faster.

"I have given my body to the strikers, and my cheeks to them that pull out the beard” – Isaiah 50:6

For the sacrifice, the High Priest’s ceremonial attire had to be a seamless garment.

“The soldiers therefore, when they had crucified him, took his garments, (and they made four parts, to every soldier a part,) and also his coat. Now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout.” - John 19:23

Keri’ah (קְרִיעָה) is the traditional Hebrew custom of rending of garments as a sign of grief.

At the death of one of the seven relatives for whom mourning is decreed (father, mother, children at least 30 days old, brother or half-brother, sister or half-sister, husband, wife), a rent, at least four inches long, is made in the lapel of an outer garment.

The halachic requirement to “expose the heart” (that is, that the tear for deceased parents must be over the heart), indicates that the tear in the apparel represents a torn heart. For parents: The tear should be made on the left side - over the heart - and should be plainly visible.

The apparel should be torn vertically (from top to bottom) beginning near the neck and cut down approximately three inches. The initial cut may be made with a knife (by anyone close by), but then should be torn by hand by the mourner himself. The tear should not be made along a seam, as it must appear to be a purposeful scar in the clothing, and not merely an accidental unthreading.

“And behold the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top even to the bottom, and the earth quaked, and the rocks were rent.” – Matthew 27:52

What was the veil of the temple but the outer garment of YHWH Who dwelt behind it in the Holy of Holies? Was not its rending the mourning act of a Father over the death of His (Jewish) Son?

I’ve provided only a few illustrations of how so many Jewish traditions were being faithfully and literally fulfilled, one after another, in course of the Sacrifice of our Lord. There are many, many more. Of course there are good spiritual or metaphorical explanations to all these events, but when you consider them in total, there are way too many of them for their *literal *connotations to be ignored or passed off as merely co-incidental.

So too the literal dimension of Christ’s words during His Passover: This is my body… this is my blood.

Don’t rush to respond to all this information. Search out the facts for yourself, especially in regard to the Jewish festival/liturgical rites that I’ve mentioned. Then dwell on them in the silence of your heart for a good long while, praying the Lord to show you their profound (life saving!) meaning.

God bless,

Francis

 

[WatchfulPilgrim]

Thank you, Francis/fxcc, for all of these posts. I see there’s been a long silence since you posted them - perhaps people are speechless (I know I am)…

I’ve heard bits and pieces of some of the parallels you present here - perhaps by Dr Scott Hahn - but I haven’t found it “written” out anywhere (until now). This will be very useful to me. I am very grateful.

God Bless~

 

[fxcc]

Thank you, Francis/fxcc, for all of these posts.

You’re welcome! The Eucharist is naturally the central passion of my life as a Catholic. And it’s amazing how much evidence there really is, even in the OLD TESTAMENT of Scripture about it really being the Body and Blood of Christ! I don’t know if I mentioned this earlier in this thread, but some months ago I was reading a book - a very old book from the 1800’s - in which the author (a Catholic priest) mentioned that the expressions to “eat flesh” and “drink blood” already had a well established METAPHORICAL meaning among Jews, which prevails also among the wider population of the middle East - to this very day.

The author clarified that to “eat someone’s flesh” metaphorically means to calumniate someone, and to “drink someone’s blood” means to do them harm - wage war on them, in fact. Hence his argument was that if Jesus meant His words in John 6 METAPHORICALLY (as is claimed by those who refuse to believe in the Real Presence) then He would’ve been talking utter nonsense! For, in effect He would’ve been saying “Unless you calumniate me or wage war against me, you have no life in you!”

Well, this allegedly prevalent cultural metaphorical meaning of those phrases, as claimed by that priest, obviously intrigued me. Obviously, if this was indeed how the phrases were commonly understood by Jews (metaphorically), then Jesus’ listeners in John 6 would surely have known that He couldn’t have been speaking metaphorically at all! So I did some online research to see if such a meaning existed (or exists) among Middle Easterners, but drew a blank. Frustrated but still intrigued, it suddenly occured to me to do an electronic search of the Bible, just to check if these phrases might be found elsewhere in Scripture, and if so, in what context (with what meaning) they might have been used. Lo and behold, dozens of instances tumbled out, where God Himself uses these phrases when talking to His people! And in every instance, He clearly uses the phrases metaphorically, swearing that He will make the enemies of Israel “eat their flesh” and “drink their blood”! The metaphorical meaning of these phrases would therefore have been known to every Jew who was familiar with Scripture and thus they would surely have understood that Jesus was meaning the words LITERALLY in John 6! Which is precisely why they found the teaching “hard” and no longer walked with Him - it was the eating of His real Body and drinking of His real Blood that Christ was talking about! In the following post(s) I’ll provide some of the scripture verses which I found (in both the Old and New Testaments), so you can study them and decide for yourself what Christ taught regarding the Eucharist!

 

[fxcc]

Isaiah 9 (Judgments upon Israel for their sins.)
9:19. By the wrath of the Lord of hosts the land is troubled, and the people shall be as fuel for the fire: no man shall spare his brother.
9:20. And he shall turn to the right hand, and shall be hungry: and shall eat on the left hand, and shall not be filled: every one shall eat the flesh of his own arm: Manasses Ephraim, and Ephraim Manasses, and they together shall be against Juda. (Meaning: they’ll fight against each other, but also fight simultaneously against Juda).

---

Isaiah 49
49:26. And I will feed thy enemies with their own flesh: and they shall be made drunk with their own blood, as with new wine: *(Meaning: they’ll fight and harm/kill each other) *and all flesh shall know, that I am the Lord that save thee, and thy Redeemer the Mighty One of Jacob.

---

Jeremiah 19 (Prophecy of desolation for the Jews)
19:9. And I will feed them with the flesh of their sons, and with the flesh of their daughters: and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend (Meaning: they’ll turn on each other) in the siege, and in the distress wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them.

---

Baruch 2
2:2. That the Lord would bring upon us great evils, such as never happened under heaven, as they have come to pass in Jerusalem, according to the things that are written in the law of Moses:
2:3. That a man should eat the flesh of his own son, and the flesh of his own daughter. (Just like Jesus has prophesied for our own times, that over matters of the faith a man will turn against his father, and daughter against her mother, etc… Matt 10:35).

---

Ezekiel 39
39:17. And thou, O son of man, saith the Lord God, say to every fowl, and to all the birds, and to all the beasts of the field: Assemble yourselves, make haste, come together from every side to my victim, which I slay for you, a great victim upon the mountains of Israel: to eat flesh, and drink blood.
39:18. You shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and you shall drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, and of lambs, and of he goats, and bullocks, and of all that are well fed and fat.

---

Daniel Chapter 7 (Daniel’s vision of the four beasts, signifying four kingdoms: of God sitting on his throne: and of the opposite kingdoms of Christ and Antichrist.)
7:1. In the first year of Baltasar, king of Babylon, Daniel saw a dream: and the vision of his head was upon his bed: and writing the dream, he comprehended it in a few words: and relating the sum of it in short, he said:
7:2. I saw in my vision by night, and behold the four winds of the heavens strove upon the great sea.
7:3. And four great beasts, different one from another, came up out of the sea.
(Four great beasts. . .Viz., the Chaldean, Persian, Grecian, and Roman empires.)
7:4. The first was like a lioness, and had the wings of an eagle: I beheld till her wings were plucked off, and she was lifted up from the earth, and stood upon her feet as a man, and the heart of a man was given to her.
7:5. And behold another beast, like a bear, stood up on one side: and there were three rows in the mouth thereof, and in the teeth thereof, and thus they said to it: Arise, devour much flesh (Meaning: wage war on these four godless empires).