proving that God is one person

[dmelosi]

bec i cant take my religion from a normal man but a prophet ,another thing you dont believe in islam so i cant ask you to qoute from

Who is the normal man you are talking about? And what is the other think I dont believe in?

Please help me understand what you just said.

 

[mercygate]

Ahmad, there are many passages in Scripture indicating the divinity of the three persons of God. In Mt. 28:20, for example, Jesus tells the disciples to baptize “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” He does not say “in the names . . .” This indicates the unity of the Godhead in three persons.

2 Cor 13:14 says: “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.”

Hebrews 9:14 speaks of the Holy Spirit: “. . . how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God.”

There is also the Apostle Thomas’ declaration upon his first encounter with the risen Lord: “My Lord and my God!” (Jn. 20)

Oh: the Prologue to the Gospel of John. “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

These are just a few of many references. But we do not rely exclusively on Scripture in working out theology. Christians “do” theology in the Bible but for us the Bible is embedded in a living faith. It is not a dead book, that we look to like a phone book or a cookbook. The truth of scripture often emerges fully against challenges from the world. No Christian theology may contradict Scripture, but it does develop as new questions arise. People often accuse Catholics of thinking they “have all the answers.” I always say that we can’t possibly have all the answers because we don’t even have all the questions yet!

 

[ahmadhassan]

Ahmad, there are many passages in Scripture indicating the divinity of the three persons of God. In Mt. 28:20, for example, Jesus tells the disciples to baptize “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” He does not say “in the names . . .” This indicates the unity of the Godhead in three persons.

2 Cor 13:14 says: “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.”

Hebrews 9:14 speaks of the Holy Spirit: “. . . how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God.”

There is also the Apostle Thomas’ declaration upon his first encounter with the risen Lord: “My Lord and my God!” (Jn. 20)

Oh: the Prologue to the Gospel of John. “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

These are just a few of many references. But we do not rely exclusively on Scripture in working out theology. Christians “do” theology in the Bible but for us the Bible is embedded in a living faith. It is not a dead book, that we look to like a phone book or a cookbook. The truth of scripture often emerges fully against challenges from the world. No Christian theology may contradict Scripture, but it does develop as new questions arise. People often accuse Catholics of thinking they “have all the answers.” I always say that we can’t possibly have all the answers because we don’t even have all the questions yet!

oh you started with posting faked verse ,baptize all nation in the name of father and son and holyghost is fake ,research its authinthication ,i have posted it either here or in a thread that God is one person

 

[mercygate]

oh you started with posting faked verse ,baptize all nation in the name of father and son and holyghost is fake ,research its authinthication ,i have posted it either here or in a thread that God is one person

Wait a minute. You asked me to quote “Bible”. I quoted “Bible”. Although I do not recognize ANY of the canonized Scriptures as “fake,” what about the other quotes. I gave you quotes – and those are just a few that came to mind; there are others.

Even without Mt. 28:19, there is ample scriptural witness to trinitarian theology. I’m not here to convert you Ahmad. Just responding to your legitimate request for scriptural support for the Christian position.

Also, your original question does not really state actual Christian theology pertaining to the Godhead. We believe that the Godhead is three divine Persons, but that the substance they all share is one substance, so the word “person” applies equally to Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but person-ality is underlain by the substance. The persons of the Godhead are consubstantial.

I am concerned that your English may not be up to this. You do not write English well (not insulting; just stating a fact). But I don’t know how to discuss this without at least some of the complex theological language.

An image people sometimes use to help understand the Trinitiy is water.

• Water running in a river is H2O.
• Steam powering a turbine is H2O.
• Frozen water on a lake is H2O.
  They are all ONE substance. (The danger with this image is that it tends to the heresy of modalism . . . but that’s another question.)

St. Patrick used a shamrock: it is one leaf, but it has 3 lobes, all of the same kind because they are all on one stem. This is an even poorer image of the Trinity than water. As Frank Sheed says, it doesn’t help you to understand the Trinity, it just helps you swallow it.

**You have not yet answered my question whether Islam believes that Allah is knowable by the human mind. **This is important to me since you accused us of “idiocy” and “not even knowing” the God we worship.

 

[paarsurrey]

An image people sometimes use to help understand the Trinitiy is water.

• Water running in a river is H2O.
• Steam powering a turbine is H2O.
• Frozen water on a lake is H2O.
  They are all ONE substance. (The danger with this image is that it tends to the heresy of modalism . . . but that’s another question.) .

Hi
If it is God’s will to keep Trinity a Mystery; then why some Christian friends here try to explain it away?
Are they more sincere than God? Do they want to accomplish what God did not?
Thanks

GodAllahYHWH is All-Knowing and All-Wise; one should invariably give Claim and Reason on all important issues from one’s Revealed Book; one shouldn’t try putting one’s own words into God’s mouth. Kindly let God speak for Claim and Reason and you would know the truth for sure.

 

[BelFarfalla]

oh you started with posting faked verse ,baptize all nation in the name of father and son and holyghost is fake ,research its authinthication ,i have posted it either here or in a thread that God is one person

It is NOT a fake verse.

 

[BelFarfalla]

Hi
If it is God’s will to keep Trinity a Mystery; then why some Christian friends here try to explain it away?
Are they more sincere than God? Do they want to accomplish what God did not?

We try to expain it as best as we can to those who ask.

Do you really think that God is not a mystery to humans? If you think that you really know everything about God please tell us everything about Him. You cannot because no human knows everything… hence He is in many ways a mystery.

Come, prove that God is not a mystery… explain everything about him. For example explain omnipotence and the mechanisms that make it possible.

 

[mercygate]

Hi
If it is God’s will to keep Trinity a Mystery; then why some Christian friends here try to explain it away?
Are they more sincere than God? Do they want to accomplish what God did not?
Thanks

GodAllahYHWH is All-Knowing and All-Wise; one should invariably give Claim and Reason on all important issues from one’s Revealed Book; one shouldn’t try putting one’s own words into God’s mouth. Kindly let God speak for Claim and Reason and you would know the truth for sure.

What do you mean by “explain it away?” I think some of your questions are extremely poorly phrased. Why would you say we think we are “more sincere than God?”

Our Bible tells us that we are to love God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength. Pondering the mysteries of the Godhead is one way we love God with our mind. We believe that he gave us reason in order that we might come to know him – though we believe that we can never fully know him until we meet him face to face in Heaven.

 

[mercygate]

i`m sure that none of those who asked me if i understand allah ,did really understand what i said in this thread ,i have never tried to ask how is allah look like in contrast ,i dont like those who describe allah as a man or son of man ,they did description but i didnt

Ahmad, my friend, there is a big problem here, and it is not a problem of an Islamic versus a Christian understanding of God. Your English is simply not up to framing the question and engaging in dialogue with English speakers.

God love you, my brother. I believe you are at some level sincere. But we simply cannot engage this discussion in a meaningful way at your level of English. I apologize that there seem to be no players here who could engage you in your own language. if you truly wish to explore this doctrine of the Trinity, why not consult with a knowledgeable Catholic priest who speaks your own language? That would give you a better opportunity.

P.S., if Christians understood “son of man” the way it appears that you understand it, we wouldn’t believe it either.

 

[KarenNC]

oh you started with posting faked verse ,baptize all nation in the name of father and son and holyghost is fake ,research its authinthication ,i have posted it either here or in a thread that God is one person

The actual verses wanted, I believe, are Matthew 28: 18-20 rather than just verse 20. (New International Version)

18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=28&version=31
(btw, you can look at this verse in a variety of translations at this site, if you are interested). The footnote says that the “in” in verse 19 could also be translated as “into.”

I believe that the issue he is bringing up is that this is attributed to the Resurrected Jesus, so that if one does not believe that the Resurrection took place, one then would also by extension believe that any actions or words attributed to Jesus afterwards did not actually happen.

 

[ahmadhassan]

Ahmad, my friend, there is a big problem here, and it is not a problem of an Islamic versus a Christian understanding of God. Your English is simply not up to framing the question and engaging in dialogue with English speakers.

God love you, my brother. I believe you are at some level sincere. But we simply cannot engage this discussion in a meaningful way at your level of English. I apologize that there seem to be no players here who could engage you in your own language. if you truly wish to explore this doctrine of the Trinity, why not consult with a knowledgeable Catholic priest who speaks your own language? That would give you a better opportunity.

P.S., if Christians understood “son of man” the way it appears that you understand it, we wouldn’t believe it either.

funny ,my english may not be perfect but its enough ,and you christians after more than 200 posts ,couldnt refute any now say my english isnt good ,go play another game

 

[dmelosi]

funny ,my english may not be perfect but its enough ,and you christians after more than 200 posts ,couldnt refute any now say my english isnt good ,go play another game

You are only hearing what you want to hear and disregarding the rest.

You claim that you have proof of what your are saying by using the sources you want and dismissing the sources you don’t want to hear…for both sides of the discussion.

 

[ahmadhassan]

The actual verses wanted, I believe, are Matthew 28: 18-20 rather than just verse 20. (New International Version)

18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=28&version=31
(btw, you can look at this verse in a variety of translations at this site, if you are interested). The footnote says that the “in” in verse 19 could also be translated as “into.”

I believe that the issue he is bringing up is that this is attributed to the Resurrected Jesus, so that if one does not believe that the Resurrection took place, one then would also by extension believe that any actions or words attributed to Jesus afterwards did not actually happen.

gospel according to matthew was written in aramaic then this aramaic translated into herbew and this herbew was translated into greek ,the aramaic was lost and now we have herbew and greek one ,that verse absent in herbew and present in greek (remember that greek is translation of herbew one )
can you explain?plz dont ignore my question as all of them usually do ,and plz dont change topic as they doing ,plz answer me

 

[mercygate]

gospel according to matthew was written in aramaic then this aramaic translated into herbew and this herbew was translated into greek ,the aramaic was lost and now we have herbew and greek one ,that verse absent in herbew and present in greek (remember that greek is translation of herbew one )
can you explain?plz dont ignore my question as all of them usually do ,and plz dont change topic as they doing ,plz answer me

Ahmad, again I ask you whether Islamic theology believes that Allah can be fully known by the human intellect and what Christian resources have you consulted regarding the development of the doctrine of the Trinity?

 

[BelFarfalla]

gospel according to matthew was written in aramaic then this aramaic translated into herbew and this herbew was translated into greek ,the aramaic was lost and now we have herbew and greek one ,that verse absent in herbew and present in greek (remember that greek is translation of herbew one )
can you explain?plz dont ignore my question as all of them usually do ,and plz dont change topic as they doing ,plz answer me

More and more here are not willing to really discuss anything much with you anymore because you have shown that you are not seeking to understand anything. Instead you are seeking to destroy Christianity no matter how many twists, turns and misinformation you have to go through to do it.

You have stated many times that Jesus was handed a gospel. We have asked for proof that this gospel exits, we want to see the gospel. You refuse to provide proof. Your contention is that only the gospel given to Jesus is correct. You say that the gospels in the NT are false writings.

Produce the gospel given to Jesus and proof of the authenticity of it or you have on leg to stand on here.

 

[mercygate]

More and more here are not willing to really discuss anything much with you anymore because you have shown that you are not seeking to understand anything. Instead you are seeking to destroy Christianity no matter how many twists, turns and misinformation you have to go through to do it.

You have stated many times that Jesus was handed a gospel. We have asked for proof that this gospel exits, we want to see the gospel. You refuse to provide proof. Your contention is that only the gospel given to Jesus is correct. You say that the gospels in the NT are false writings.

Produce the gospel given to Jesus and proof of the authenticity of it or you have on leg to stand on here.

Did I miss something? Is there another thread that preceded this one? Jesus was handed a gospel? Seems kind of strange since Jesus IS the gospel!

 

[BelFarfalla]

Did I miss something? Is there another thread that preceded this one? Jesus was handed a gospel? Seems kind of strange since Jesus IS the gospel!

You are right that Jesus IS the gospel.

But Muslims claim that Jesus was only a prophet. That just as Allah gave Muhammad the Qur’an (supposedly), someone (I presume God) gave Jesus a gospel. But that the people after Jesus died destroyed the gospel and wrote the forged NT that we have now.

It is one of the things that Muslims say to try to discredit and destroy Christianity.

 

[anthony022071]

gospel according to matthew was written in aramaic then this aramaic translated into herbew and this herbew was translated into greek ,the aramaic was lost and now we have herbew and greek one ,that verse absent in herbew and present in greek (remember that greek is translation of herbew one )
can you explain?plz dont ignore my question as all of them usually do ,and plz dont change topic as they doing ,plz answer me

I’m still waiting for proof (in the Vulgate thread) that the verse in Matthew was not in the Hebrew text. Is there a Hebrew text that exists that we can compare the Greek text with?

 

[mercygate]

You are right that Jesus IS the gospel.

But Muslims claim that Jesus was only a prophet. That just as Allah gave Muhammad the Qur’an (supposedly), someone (I presume God) gave Jesus a gospel. But that the people after Jesus died destroyed the gospel and wrote the forged NT that we have now.

I am quite ignorant of all of this; one question that arises for me is what the motivation would be for people to invent a story like the Resurrection when it is so utterly incredible, and in the environtment of the Roman Empire was a guaranteed ticket to the Colosseum as the featured entertainment, and would get people scourged out of the synagogues . . . I mean, where’s the upside in creating a “myth” like that?

It is one of the things that Muslims say to try to discredit and destroy Christianity.

I understand that Muslims do not accept the Resurrection. But any clear-eyed person should be able to acknowledge that the Resurrection, if true, would certainly require re-thinking the self-revelation of the Godhead.

 

[BelFarfalla]

I am quite ignorant of all of this; one question that arises for me is what the motivation would be for people to invent a story like the Resurrection when it is so utterly incredible, and in the environtment of the Roman Empire was a guaranteed ticket to the Colosseum as the featured entertainment, and would get people scourged out of the synagogues . . . I mean, where’s the upside in creating a “myth” like that?

I do not believe the Islamic claim about Jesus being given a gospel.
Muslims deny the Crucifixion and the Resurrection. They say that both are lies made up by the Apostle Paul and others. Why would someone make up such a lie when it would only lead with their persecution and death? I see no reason for making up such a lie. But if a person did witness such a thing, I can see the going to their deaths insisting that it was true… After all, after seeing that they would know that God was all powerful and that denying it would only lead to hell.

II understand that Muslims do not accept the Resurrection. But any clear-eyed person should be able to acknowledge that the Resurrection, if true, would certainly require re-thinking the self-revelation of the Godhead.

Again I agree. There were heretical Christian sects that lived among the tribes of Mecca and Medina. Muhammad got his ideas of Christianity partially from them.