Proving the Historical Accuracy of Tobit (Tobias)

[Luke65]

Are you saying that any theory proposed by science is incredible because God didn’t cause it to be written about in the Bible? Seriously?

Seriously? No, any theory that contradicts the Word of God must be rejected. I wish you guys would dispense with the straw man arguments.

 

[diggerdomer]

Seriously? No, any theory that contradicts the Word of God must be rejected. I wish you guys would dispense with the straw man arguments.

I have no idea how what you typed relates to what I wrote. Please clarify. To my knowledge, I didn’t propose any theory as true that contradicts the Word of God.

If you believe otherwise, please explain. Your statement (above) was not at all helpful in conveying relevant meaning.

 

[Luke65]

I have no idea how what you typed relates to what I wrote. Please clarify. To my knowledge, I didn’t propose any theory as true that contradicts the Word of God.

If you believe otherwise, please explain. Your statement (above) was not at all helpful in conveying relevant meaning.

You asked about “any theory proposed by science”. I said, no, only theories that contradict the Word of God.

 

[juliamajor]

Yet, there are very important things that Jesus said in relation to these “fictional” stories. If you do not believe in the historical accuracy of them, then you miss the important message and lesson that Jesus wants to teach you in relation to them.
The Jews obviously believed in the historical accuracy of Jonah and the fish. This is shown in their reaction to Jesus telling them that, like Jonah in the belly of the fish, He would be in the tomb for 3 days.

If the historical accuracy is of so little importance, why have you spent so much time debating the point with me? And why do you not just believe the Bible as it is written if the historical accuracy truly doesn’t matter? And what points do you think I am missing in the stories of Tobit, Judith, Noah, Jonah? What do you think you have recieved from those stories that people who believe that they are historically accurate do not recieve?

You still haven’t answered my question. And isn’t the point of this forum debate? again you’ve read but not understood. and answer a question with a question . How politic of you.
Fictional is not a dirty word- it doesn’t imply lies- that’s your definition. Some important things came out of these"fictional" stories, you have stated. No kidding. But again what does historical accuracy have to do with it? What’s more important the historical fact that Jonah was swallowed by a big fish? Let’s see.-
Chapter 2
“The Lord Provided a huge fish to swallow Jonah; and Jonah remained in the fish’s belly three days and three nights. Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from the belly of the fish.He said:
In my trouble I called to the Lord,
And he answered me;
from the belly of Sheol I cried out,
and you heard my voice.
You cast me into the depths,
Into the heart of the sea,
The flood engulfed me;
All Your breakers and billows
swept over me.
I thought I was driven away
out of your sight:
Would I ever gaze again
Upon your Holy Temple?
The waters closed in over me,
The deep engulfed me.
Weeds twined around my head.
I sank to the base of the mountains;
The bars of the earth closed upon me forever.
Yet You brought my life up from the pit,
Olordmy God!
When my life was wbbing away,
I called the Lord to mind;
And my prayer came before You,
Into Your Holy Temple.
They who cling to empty folly
Forsake their own welfare,
But I, with loud thanksgiving,
Will sacrifice to You;
What I vowed I will perform.
Deliverance is the Lord’s
The Lord commanded the fish, and it spewed Jonah out upon dry land.
For something so important to my understanding of Jesus’ use of it, the belly of the fish gets short shrift.
Lets look at it.What was Jesus really saying? Talking just about His three days in the Tomb?
Or is it like Psalm 22, the one that Jesus quotes on the cross” my God, my God why have you forsaken me? You see that’s only a tiny part of the psalm . Those in the know would remember that what starts in pain in agony in the psalm ends in triumph and victory. Just like Jesus death and resurrection.
You can see by Jonah’s prayer that the belly of the fish and the tomb are not the only analogies. /COLOR] " from the belly of Sheol I cried out" , Jesus cried out didn’t he -Sheol, the netherworld where Jesus set the captives free.“And you heard my voice” again crying out in pain and victory.“you cast me into the depths” Jesus ’ death and burial.“I thought I was driven away” again psalm22." out of your sight" burial.
“would I ever gaze Upon Your Holy temple?“God’s eternal temple in heaven. “the waters closed over me” death and tomb akin to ‘a watery grave’“weeds twined around my head” crown of thorns can be prefigured there.'The bars of the earth closed upon me forever” again prefigure Jesus’ death and grave.’ Yet you brought my life up from the pit’ ‘pit, nether world, sheol’,- back from the grave -resurrection! “When my life was ebbing away, I called the Lord to mind” -“Father into your hands I commend my Spirit’.” And my prayer came before You , into your Holy Temple” the Father listens to the Son always.“What I have vowed I will perform” ’ God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son’.“Deliverance is the Lord’s” He saved us from our sins thru His sacrifice.
you see I do believe the Bible and I do get it- whether Jonah was in the belly of the fish or not is not as important as what Jesus implied by the use of Jonah and the prayer that is such a more vital part then the fish.

 

[diggerdomer]

You asked about “any theory proposed by science”. I said, no, only theories that contradict the Word of God.

This did nothing to clarify your previous posting.

Please try again.

If not, that’s fine, I’ll let others try to figure out what you’re trying to say and respond accordingly in accordance with Catholic Church teaching. I’m sure they’ll have better luck intuiting what you’re trying to say.

 

[NotWorthy]

Excellent question.I really do not have an accurate answer in the propose question and that being that I would have to be one of the Trinity to answer. But I do see what your question propose; my response is very simple and that is he (GOD) does not give any date lines and also it is as the New Covenant says: a second is as if a thousand years to God or something like that.

Now your argument is as far as I can see it is this: God the Almighty took more then 6 days for creation, in-fact you are actually saying it took millions of years or longer. Well, Okay but how about this: The World has been around since it was just a mass of gas and the lord created what he wanted out of it in 6 days. How long did Adam and Eve live, after all it was a perfect paradise. Death did not exist or any of the curses which man brought down upon his head such as aging… So, maybe he live all the way through the dinosuares, I do not know.

Any way you look at it, I will not depart from the 6 day theory untill the Holy Roman Catholic Church says different and this my good freind is call my belief. Even if you proven your theory beyond a shadow of a doubt, my Holy Bilble and the Holy Catholic Church does not lie, so you and not I am missing part of the LINK. If you do not want to believe that is you choice, I BELIEVE.

And I also fully support your belief, my brother, all the while holding to mine. And that is in accordance with what the Church teaches. Our friend JnC, however, doesn’t seem to hold to this teaching.

 

[NotWorthy]

So tell me this. Jesus talks about Jonah in the belly of the fish for three days as though it is a totally true and historically accurate story…and about Noah and the Flood as historically accurate events.
Do you teach that these things actually happened the way that the Bible and Jesus taught…or not?

Here’s something that always makes me wonder about the Book of Jonah.

So Jonah made ready and went to Nineveh, according to the LORD’S bidding. Now Nineveh was an enormously large city; it took three days to go through it.

I don’t know of any cities today that take 3 days to go through.

Now, I’m not just saying… But I’m just saying.

 

[NotWorthy]

Where does the Church teach that it is against the Truth to believe the Bible as totally historically accurate?

This post proves, JnC that you just don’t get it.

Listen, and listen closely (or should I say, “Read, and read carefully”):
I have no problem with those who believe in the 6 day Creation Story. I believe that Creation took millions and billions of years, however. BUT… even though I disagree with the 6 day Creation story, I respect the opinions of those who believe it and will do nothing to condemn or chastise their belief.

YOU, however, are condemning my belief, even though it is in accordance with what the Church teaches. THAT is where you are in error, JnC.

 

[NotWorthy]

Of course not. Most of the fossils we find, including dino bones, are creatures that were buried in the Flood. That’s the whole point: the fossil record is a stark reminder of the consequences of sin. To say that these animals died millions of years before Adam sinned makes God the Author of death and suffering.

“How long, O men, will you turn my glory into shame?
How long will you love delusions and seek false gods?
Selah” (Psalm 4:2)

Who should we believe, the false god “Science”, or God, the only eyewitness Who cannot lie?

Hmmm… Dinosaur bones are only 10,000 years or less? I wasn’t aware of that. God is not the author of death and suffering. Dinosaurs are without supernatural souls, so I don’t understand your point.

 

[monina]

I agree. But a heathen will easily be able to say that if the Bible is full of fables, then it isn’t consistant with Truth. It is inconsistant because fables are not true…irregardless of the lesson.

Not at all. A heathen arguing with a Sola Scriptura Christian would be able to use that argument, but not with a Catholic.

We as Catholics are blessed with the Holy Mother Church, which we can take recourse to. So when a heathen says, “well, you say Jonah was never literally swallowed by a whale–how can you believe that Jesus literally rose from the dead?” we Catholics can reply, “We have been given guidelines for interpreting Scripture through the wisdom of our wonderful Magisterium.”

I don’t understand, JnC, why you sound so harsh and strident about something that does not contradict Catholic teaching. You sound as if you believe those who do not believe the world was created in 6 days are professing heresy. We as Catholics are allowed to believe in evolution.

Also, what is your response to NotWorthy’s question about the destruction in the temple being used as a past event in a story that preceded the destruction? How could that be historically accurate?

 

[donalddon5]

Here’s something that always makes me wonder about the Book of Jonah.

So Jonah made ready and went to Nineveh, according to the LORD’S bidding. Now Nineveh was an enormously large city; it took three days to go through it.

I don’t know of any cities today that take 3 days to go through.

Now, I’m not just saying… But I’m just saying.

According to Hebrew tradition every number has a symbolic significance. Three, seven, ten, and twelve are known as the “perfect” numbers.

 

[NotWorthy]

According to Hebrew tradition every number has a symbolic significance. Three, seven, ten, and twelve are known as the “perfect” numbers.

But… But… are you saying that the number three in this incidence is a sign of completeness and not three days??? JnC is going to have the literal-cy police come and beat you with wet noodles! :tsktsk:

But in answer (or clarification) to your statement - yes three is a perfect number. Here’s what I’ve got on the number 3 in the Old Testament. It comes from AgapeBibleStudy.Com

THREE: In sacred Scripture the number 3 represents that which is solid, real, substantial, and something in its completeness. This number usually indicates something of importance or significance in God’s plan of salvation by identifying an important event in Salvation History. This number operates as a “sign-post” in Scripture study for the reader to “pay attention” to the significance of the next event.

 

[monina]

YOU, however, are condemning my belief, even though it is in accordance with what the Church teaches. THAT is where you are in error, JnC.

Yes. A parallel would be a person who condemns Catholics for receiving Communion in the hands. This person might say, “You obviously do not understand what the Eucharist is, otherwise you would not deign to receive Our Lord in your hands.”

(I am not saying the JnC believes this; I’m just saying there’s a similarity in her treatment of us Catholics who believe in evolution, with a person who condemns us for receiving the Eucharist in our hands.)

 

[Contarini]

I agree. But a heathen will easily be able to say that if the Bible is full of fables, then it isn’t consistant with Truth.

And a well-educated and thoughtful heathen will have no trouble showing that there are “fables” in the Bible. Or do you want to convert people by taking advantage of their intellectual limitations?

It is inconsistant because fables are not true…irregardless of the lesson.

You are wrong there.

More broadly, the approach you take holds Christianity up to ridicule–the idea that it makes Christianity more persuasive (except to the gullible and ignorant) is nonsense.

You put Christianity in clear opposition to truth. How can we then blame people for choosing truth over Christianity?

Edwin

 

[Spirithound]

According to Hebrew tradition every number has a symbolic significance. Three, seven, ten, and twelve are known as the “perfect” numbers.

A four-way tie for perfection?? hides

(btw, not disputing your point, I just found it funny )

 

[juliamajor]

According to Hebrew tradition every number has a symbolic significance. Three, seven, ten, and twelve are known as the “perfect” numbers.

True , true- numbers do have a symbolic meaning.but they still can just be a number meaning this was was big mama jama of a city!

 

[donalddon5]

I found this helpful: newadvent.org/cathen/14749c.htm

 

[NotWorthy]

True , true- numbers do have a symbolic meaning.but they still can just be a number meaning this was was big mama jama of a city!

But three days? I think I could walk through Houston in two days (give or take for dodging traffic ) and I doubt if Ninevah was that big.

 

[donalddon5]

But three days? I think I could walk through Houston in two days (give or take for dodging traffic ) and I doubt if Ninevah was that big.

Of three days’ journey… By the computation of some ancient historians, Ninive was about fifty miles round: so that to go through all the chief streets and public places was three days’ journey.

The above reply is excert from : newadvent.org/bible/jon003.htm

 

[donalddon5]

But three days? I think I could walk through Houston in two days (give or take for dodging traffic ) and I doubt if Ninevah was that big.

Remember that he was not hiking through but warning people. When I have difficulties with passage, the first question I have in my mind is what do I not understand.