Proving the Historical Accuracy of Tobit (Tobias)

[juliamajor]

Truth and facts can be diametrically opposed to each other. A fact does not make something true nor does a truth make something a fact.Fact- abortion is a medical procedure that terminates a pregnancy. Truth- abortion kills babies in the womb.Truth Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. Fact- Eucharist is bread and wine. A Truth is much greater then a fact.and more reliable…
Truth can come in many forms- not just historical accuracy. Fiction is not intrinsically an untruth or a lie because it is fiction. Lord of the Rings, being mentioned before ,contains truth in terms of metaphor . Lembas (metaphor for the Eucharist ) is a elvish bread that sustains life and strength without the need of any other food. I see that as a great truth in form of fiction.
Ancients would understand facts and not metaphors? They understood metaphor and symbols very well. If you look at pottery and art of the time period things that enigmas to us were crystal clear to them.That’s true of art forms of every age and time.
Parables are fiction - they were always fiction as it is the nature of the parable.Parables have a long history in the Middle east and have much in common with rabbinical stories. They have many layers and not always a clear as you want them to be. that was done on purpose to make a student think outside of the box. Again this was a form of storytelling familiar to the place and time. A teacher would not have to say- this is a parable. It was up to the student to figure it out. Starting with the formula"there once was a man" is like saying to us “once upon a time.” We would know automatically what was going on-just like they would grasp it.That doesn’t mean that sometimes it would be difficult for some to understand- it could be but again -that was the point.

 

[juliamajor]

Judith was written with an unhistorical timeline to show it’s audience it was not historical in nature.Nebechadnezzar was never called King of the Assyrians- But referred to as a Babylonian king. There is no Arphaxad on the Mede Kings list. Nebuchadnezzar’s father Nabopolossar -destroyed Nineveh in 612 BC- so he could not have ruled Nineveh.Nebuchadnezzar II is the acknowledged Nebuchadnezzar in the bible. Nabuchadnezzar I was again the king of the Babylonians around 1025 BC. Way before the fall of Israel and not pertinent to this story. That’s it.Those are the facts.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

First of all, I want you to admit that a “story” can teach us the truth.

A story can teach us a lesson. Ya know fables, and such. Even fairy tales teach lessons. What has that got to do with the Bible?

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

So is the Church in error when She allows the faithful to believe that Creation took place over millions of years?

You think intelligence has not evolved? So, our good Israelites would have understood atoms, proton, neutrons, and quarks?

Intelligence has not evolved. We just have more knowledge. The two are not interchangeable. Noah understood God’s instructions and built the ark to the specifications that God told Him. Adam and Eve knew that they were disobeying God when they ate of the forbidden fruit…and that there would be consequences. They were ashamed. That is intelligence. Abraham was intelligent to understand God’s words that Sarah would bare him a son. Sarah was intelligent enough to understand to know it would take a miracle. Abraham was intelligent enough understand God’s command to sacrifice his only son…and to obey…and then to stop at the call of the angel. Moses was intelligent enough to understand God’s words to give to Pharoah. The Egyptians were intelligent enough to build the pyramids which in some ways are still a mystery to us.

No, intelligence has not evolved. Knowledge has.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Nowhere. But so what?

Where does the author claim this is “factual historical truth” as we would expect from a CNN newscast?

The factual historical truth is in the details of names and places.

Nowhere. So what?

Also, Jesus frequently tells parables (as most of us understand them) without specifically saying “here’s a parable” or “here’s a story I’m telling that is fictional but the point I’m trying to convey is truthful”?

Which parable are you speaking of? The story of the prodigal son I believe begins with “There was once a man”. The others begin something like “The Kingdom of Heaven is like…” and He gives a comparison between Heaven and such. Parables begin with “Listen to this parable”.

Do you interpret the story of the prodigal son as literally true? (Luke 15).

Was Jesus telling us about a real-life factual family? Does it matter one way or another?

I certainly do believe it to be a truthful story that Jesus was telling to people. He did not give names or dates. It wasn’t going on at the time, so there was no historical accuracy to it. I believe Jesus was telling the story of real life people in another place and time. That is why He begins the story with “There was once a man”. He would not have told it beginning with those words if it wasn’t the Truth, since He is the Truth and cannot lie or decieve in any way. He is not a God of fiction. He is not limited to time. It was a very concievable story.

If you say yes, this was a real family, well, show us where in the Gospel that Jesus says this was a “factual” teaching vs. a parable (similar to his common teaching method). What were the names of the people involved?

If you say no, well then can’t we allow that Tobit might have been a similar composition?

No. The story of Tobit was told as an historical event that actually happened. There are none of the words to make one…or allow one to think that it is anything less than historically accurate. Just because our very finite minds cannot concieve of it being historically accurate does not in any way mean that it is not so.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Judith was written with an unhistorical timeline to show it’s audience it was not historical in nature.Nebechadnezzar was never called King of the Assyrians- But referred to as a Babylonian king. There is no Arphaxad on the Mede Kings list. Nebuchadnezzar’s father Nabopolossar -destroyed Nineveh in 612 BC- so he could not have ruled Nineveh.Nebuchadnezzar II is the acknowledged Nebuchadnezzar in the bible. Nabuchadnezzar I was again the king of the Babylonians around 1025 BC. Way before the fall of Israel and not pertinent to this story. That’s it.Those are the facts.

Thanks, but I will stick to the TRUTH. I believe everything in the Bible. Why did Jesus state that what were parables if everyone would have understood them to be parables? Why the explanations from Jesus…and everything else left up to the interpretation of the reader?
God is not a god of confusion.

Judith is a true story.

 

[NotWorthy]

A story can teach us a lesson. Ya know fables, and such. Even fairy tales teach lessons. What has that got to do with the Bible?

Ah, but that’s not what I said

  			Originally Posted by **NotWorthy** 					[forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4996813#post4996813) 				
  		*First of all, I want you to admit that **a "story" can teach us the truth***.

I’m simply trying to point out that a story, or parable, can teach the truth, not just a lesson. Jesus used parables to teach the truth, not simply lessons.

 

[NotWorthy]

Intelligence has not evolved. We just have more knowledge. The two are not interchangeable. Noah understood God’s instructions and built the ark to the specifications that God told Him. Adam and Eve knew that they were disobeying God when they ate of the forbidden fruit…and that there would be consequences. They were ashamed. That is intelligence. Abraham was intelligent to understand God’s words that Sarah would bare him a son. Sarah was intelligent enough to understand to know it would take a miracle. Abraham was intelligent enough understand God’s command to sacrifice his only son…and to obey…and then to stop at the call of the angel. Moses was intelligent enough to understand God’s words to give to Pharoah. The Egyptians were intelligent enough to build the pyramids which in some ways are still a mystery to us.

I would have called all that wisdom and lack of wisdom, until you got to the Egyptians.

No, intelligence has not evolved. Knowledge has.

So, instead of belaboring the point, simply replace my comment on intelligence with knowledge. The pont still stands.

 

[diggerdomer]

No. The story of Tobit was told as an historical event that actually happened. There are none of the words to make one…or allow one to think that it is anything less than historically accurate. Just because our very finite minds cannot concieve of it being historically accurate does not in any way mean that it is not so.

You’re welcome to believe that. No problem. But it’s not required of all Catholics by the Church as part of our faith. I think that pretty much applies, still, to all your responses.

You never did answer a previous question posted to you from soneone about whether Catholics are allowed to believe the earth has been around for millions or more years (as opposed to the account given in Genesis).

Jesus was free to begin his parables however he wanted to. I’m not limiting him to one and only one way of telling a story.

I find it’s really helpful to read the Catechism para 50-141. If you’re interested, that is a great summary or overview of the Catholic approach to Scripture.

 

[NotWorthy]

Thanks, but I will stick to the TRUTH. I believe everything in the Bible. Why did Jesus state that what were parables if everyone would have understood them to be parables? Why the explanations from Jesus…and everything else left up to the interpretation of the reader?
God is not a god of confusion.

Judith is a true story.

And yet you seem to avoid the question of the Creation Story. What do you think of people that believe God created the universe over millions and billions of years? Are they in error?

 

[donalddon5]

And yet you seem to avoid the question of the Creation Story. What do you think of people that believe God created the universe over millions and billions of years? Are they in error?

Possibly not, however, I believe that the creation story was a teaching tools for the early Jewish community.They love their children and certainly had evidence of God and wanted them to grow and mature in that love.

But However, going back to your argument. We all can confirm for a fact that it takes for a very long time for something like the earth to be created but we also can confirm that the likely hood of such a perfect world existing from mere cosmic events in the some what
of not happening to the impossible. Now is it possible that the world was actually created in such a short period of time (six days)–I can only say that my faith is of such that it certainly does not at all appear to be impractical. In-fact given that life is in existence goes to show me that it was most likely a case of God love that we were created. And the beauty of that no man has yet seen and witness except through the creation story.

 

[NotWorthy]

Possibly not, however, I believe that the creation story was a teaching tools for the early Jewish community.They love their children and certainly had evidence of God and wanted them to grow and mature in that love.

But However, going back to your argument. We all can confirm for a fact that it takes for a very long time for something like the earth to be created but we also can confirm that the likely hood of such a perfect world existing from mere cosmic events in the some what
of not happening to the impossible. Now is it possible that the world was actually created in such a short period of time (six days)–I can only say that my faith is of such that it certainly does not at all appear to be impractical. In-fact given that life is in existence goes to show me that it was most likely a case of God love that we were created. And the beauty of that no man has yet seen and witness except through the creation story.

Oh, I believe 110% that all of Creation is a result of God’s unbounding Love for us, no doubt. But our good Jesus and Cherie has been quite loose with accusations against me and others who go along with the Bible Scholars who feel that there are inaccuracies in books such as Tobit and Judith. These inaccuracies are not fallacies, as J-n-C has accused us of thinking. They are part of the Jewish literary style that was not uncommon in ancient Israel. These stories tell great Truths and are truly inspired, even though they aren’t 100% true.

My point in bringing up Creation is that both theories (6 days and million and billions of years) are accepted by the Church. JnC believes in the 6 day Creation account to the exclusion of the other, so I’m trying to see what are the thoughts of JnC regarding those who believe in the other account.

 

[donalddon5]

Oh, I believe 110% that all of Creation is a result of God’s unbounding Love for us, no doubt. But our good Jesus and Cherie has been quite loose with accusations against me and others who go along with the Bible Scholars who feel that there are inaccuracies in books such as Tobit and Judith. These inaccuracies are not fallacies, as J-n-C has accused us of thinking. They are part of the Jewish literary style that was not uncommon in ancient Israel. These stories tell great Truths and are truly inspired, even though they aren’t 100% true.

My point in bringing up Creation is that both theories (6 days and million and billions of years) are accepted by the Church. JnC believes in the 6 day Creation account to the exclusion of the other, so I’m trying to see what are the thoughts of JnC regarding those who believe in the other account.

I see your point. For myself, I certainly believe in the 6 days especially given that the likely hood of such a world to exist as earth is unfathomable.

Now as we both noted the creation story is in a couple of cultures or so our history books say so. Have you ever thought that it is more of an affirmation then a rejection of the creation theory. I remember as a child of hearing about Hercules in elementary school and relating it to Samson, my teacher try her best to shut me up. Personally, I found it exciting and it only confirm my belief. Guess what I am trying to ask her is why would the another culture stories or modern day psychists in any way make you see it other then how the bible presents it?

 

[juliamajor]

Thanks, but I will stick to the TRUTH. I believe everything in the Bible. Why did Jesus state that what were parables if everyone would have understood them to be parables? Why the explanations from Jesus…and everything else left up to the interpretation of the reader?
God is not a god of confusion.

Judith is a true story.

You can stick by your version of the truth. What you perceive to be true becomes your reality- whether it really is or not.Parables were not always explicit.Parables are a mental exercise, storytelling with no clear cut answers. That is why the Jesus often had to explain them.Agadah (parables) is a story like approach in rabbinic and Synoptic literature.Because people liked a good story agadic material was a painless ,pleasant way of teaching truth without facts being involved.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

And yet you seem to avoid the question of the Creation Story. What do you think of people that believe God created the universe over millions and billions of years? Are they in error?

I believe that people who believe in evolution and such are not giving God the credit He is due. I believe that they are underestimating He and His creation.

And I also believe that they are cheating themselves out of having faith as a child.

And I still stand on what I have pointed out that if you punch holes in a bag, it is impossible to sell the bag as a whole bag. The same goes with the Truth of God’s Word…which is what the Bible is. If you punch all kinds of holes in it, claiming it isn’t factual…when it totally reads factual…then it makes no sense for someone who is not a Christian to believe in the actuality of any of it.
LOTR is obviously a fictional book. Just because they use symbolism does not make it a book of truth. The Bible is a book of TRUTH. You are trying to use supposed symbolism to make it fiction.
And you don’t seem to realize what you are doing. I do not believe you mean to try to discredit the TRUTH. But your “human reasoning” is working against you in this.

I could easily say that it makes no difference for you, me or any other established Christian to believe the 1 billion year creation or the 6 day creation. But it matters very much in evangelizing…which is the mission of all Christians.

What do you say to the athiest or hindu who is questioning you about the TRUTH? They say, “where do you get your information?” You say, “Tradition and the Bible”. They say, “Where did this Bible of Truth come from?” you say, “It is many books put together by the Church under the inspiration and direction of the Holy Spirit Who is God.”

They say, “So you believe that the world was created in 6 days?” you say, “No, I believe it is human beings way of explaining it to the best of their ability.”

They say, “Do you believe in Jonah being swallowed by a big fish?” you say, “No, that is just a story for the lesson it teaches.”

They say “Do you believe in the story as written about Noah and the Ark?” you say, “No, that is just another story to teach a lesson, or maybe some of it happened, but certainly not the way it is described in the Bible.”

They say, “Do you believe in the Annunciation, the Passion, Death, Resurrection and Ascension of Jesus of Nazareth?”
You say, “Yes, of course”

They say…“But the only historical records you have of these events in the life of this man are found in this Bible which you, yourself are telling me are only full of good stories made up by man to teach a good lesson. Or else they are told by God as the Truth, and then you are telling me that they are not true. So why in the world should I give even another thought to Christianity. The God you worship sounds condescending and decieving.”

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

You can stick by your version of the truth. What you perceive to be true becomes your reality- whether it really is or not.Parables were not always explicit.Parables are a mental exercise, storytelling with no clear cut answers. That is why the Jesus often had to explain them.Agadah (parables) is a story like approach in rabbinic and Synoptic literature.Because people liked a good story agadic material was a painless ,pleasant way of teaching truth without facts being involved.

I didn’t ask why people taught in parables. I asked why Jesus identified them as parables, yet they are not identified as such in the other books if parables are their ways of teaching the lesson of Tobit, Judith, Jonah, Creation, Noah, etc.

And why would they not assume that the Annunciation, Resurrection, and Ascension of Jesus of Nazareth isn’t just another story? After all, Jesus and Peter talk about Noah as though it were a very real event. And Jesus mentions Jonah also…and He mentions it as a very real event.
So what you would be telling people is that they should only believe in the accuracy of the parts of the Bible that YOUR fallible human reasoning tells them that they should? For they certainly cannot believe the words of Jesus according to you.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I see your point. For myself, I certainly believe in the 6 days especially given that the likely hood of such a world to exist as earth is unfathomable.

Now as we both noted the creation story is in a couple of cultures or so our history books say so. Have you ever thought that it is more of an affirmation then a rejection of the creation theory. I remember as a child of hearing about Hercules in elementary school and relating it to Samson, my teacher try her best to shut me up. Personally, I found it exciting and it only confirm my belief. Guess what I am trying to ask her is why would the another culture stories or modern day psychists in any way make you see it other then how the bible presents it?

That is an excellent question.

 

[juliamajor]

I didn’t ask why people taught in parables. I asked why Jesus identified them as parables, yet they are not identified as such in the other books if parables are their ways of teaching the lesson of Tobit, Judith, Jonah, Creation, Noah, etc.

And why would they not assume that the Annunciation, Resurrection, and Ascension of Jesus of Nazareth isn’t just another story? After all, Jesus and Peter talk about Noah as though it were a very real event. And Jesus mentions Jonah also…and He mentions it as a very real event.
So what you would be telling people is that they should only believe in the accuracy of the parts of the Bible that YOUR fallible human reasoning tells them that they should? For they certainly cannot believe the words of Jesus according to you.

You keep repeating the same mantra and it’s plain off.Not my fallible reasoning - but reasoning of Divino Spiritu Afflante, and Dei verbum and of my Bible School run by my diocese. And why wouldn’t they believe in the words of Jesus -your reasoning is unclear.I believe the words of Jesus and my students do- so your speculation is just that-mere speculation.If I don’t believe the truth in the Bible why would I spend four years in school and 5 yrs studying and teaching? I suggest you read an article on this website called 5 myths about 7 books and a book on the parables.

 

[Spirithound]

A story can teach us a lesson. Ya know fables, and such. Even fairy tales teach lessons. What has that got to do with the Bible?

But what good is a lesson if it’s false? Shouldn’t lessons teach us truth?

And why would they not assume that the Annunciation, Resurrection, and Ascension of Jesus of Nazareth isn’t just another story?

You know what? They might. But that’s why we have a Living, Teaching Church to tell us otherwise.

 

[NotWorthy]

I see your point. For myself, I certainly believe in the 6 days especially given that the likely hood of such a world to exist as earth is unfathomable.

Now as we both noted the creation story is in a couple of cultures or so our history books say so. Have you ever thought that it is more of an affirmation then a rejection of the creation theory. I remember as a child of hearing about Hercules in elementary school and relating it to Samson, my teacher try her best to shut me up. Personally, I found it exciting and it only confirm my belief. Guess what I am trying to ask her is why would the another culture stories or modern day psychists in any way make you see it other then how the bible presents it?

My only question in response is why does God go through all the trouble of creating dinosaur bones and them burying them? Is it to test the faith of people 1600 years after Christ? (I’m assuming that’s when dinosaur bones were first becoming discovered… the actual date is irrelevant).