Proving the Historical Accuracy of Tobit (Tobias)

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

If the Bible is full of unintentional fallacy…it is still fallacy!!! What difference will that make to someone who is having a difficult time finding the Truth in the Word of God? How can you tell someone to believe in the Bible as the True Word of God, and then tell them that not everything in it is True?

Do you honestly not understand that this would cause much confusion?

Is it more important for a person’s soul to learn faith rather than science? After all, we must rely on faith to believe in the Anunciation, Resurrection and Ascension of Christ Jesus.

 

[NotWorthy]

Someone please tell me where the Pope or the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church implies that I am NOT following her teachings.

You are disobeying the Church’s teaching, not in believing the 6 day Creation Story, but in accusing those of believing in a “millions and billions of years Creation” to be distorting the Word of God. The Church accepts both theories because She doesn’t know the exact details of Creation… only the fact that God created everything.

Here’s a snippet of what I got from AgapeBibleStudy.Com, a very orthodox Catholic Bible Study web site:

Whether one believes in a literal 6-day creation period is really not the issue.  The issue is: Do you believe that God is the author of Creation?  One may believe in a literal 6-day creation or that God used evolution in some way (other than Darwinism which denies God’s intimate involvement in the Creation event).  In 1907 Pope Pius X addressed the issues concerning what Catholics must believe about the Creation in the encyclical *Pascendi Dominici Gregis.  *This document was followed by an encyclical by Pope Pius XII entitled *Humanae Generis*.  These two documents define what Catholics must believe about the history of creation to be in accord with the teachings of the Church.  For those Catholic Christians who struggle with the question of evolution, the Magisterium of the Catholic Church has set these guidelines for what Catholic Christians must believe about Creation:

1.The creation by God of all things at the beginning of time.
2.The special creation by God of man.
3.The formation of woman from man.
4.The unity of the human family.
5.The original happiness of our first parents in a state of justice and grace.
6.The divine command given to man by God to prove his obedience.
7.The transgression of that command at the instigation of Satan in the form of a serpent.
8.The fall of our original parents from their primitive state of innocence.
9.The promise of a future redeemer.
Pascendi Dominici Gregis, Pope Pius X; Humanae Generis, Pope Pius XII; also see CCC#s 279, 296-98, 343, 355-58, 369-73, 374-79, 390-95, 397, 410-11]

 

[NotWorthy]

If the Bible is full of unintentional fallacy…it is still fallacy!!! What difference will that make to someone who is having a difficult time finding the Truth in the Word of God? How can you tell someone to believe in the Bible as the True Word of God, and then tell them that not everything in it is True?

J N C, I would ask you to study the issue the Church had with Galileo in response to this post. Galileo, after realizing that the earth revolved around the Sun (the opposite that was believed by the majority in his day), he went off in the opposite direction that you are going. He said, “See, you can’t believe the Bible about anything, since the Bible claimed that the sun revolved around the earth” (I’m pretty sure he was referring to the battle scene in the Book of Joshua where the inspired author wrote that God stopped the sun for three hours so that the Israelites could further wipe out their enemy before the sun went down).

So, I must reiterate. The Church must only teach what She knows is the Truth. The Church doesn’t know that the earth was created in 6 days, so She is silent on the issue.

Is it more important for a person’s soul to learn faith rather than science? After all, we must rely on faith to believe in the Anunciation, Resurrection and Ascension of Christ Jesus.

True. And, in Faith, the Church needs to teach only what She knows to be true.

 

[NotWorthy]

If the Bible is full of unintentional fallacy…it is still fallacy!!! What difference will that make to someone who is having a difficult time finding the Truth in the Word of God?

What I’ve been trying to tell you the whole time is that, just because something isn’t true, doesn’t make it a fallacy. Do you call J.R.R. Tolkien a liar because there was no middle earth and no hobbits? Do you call Jesus a liar because there was no man that owned a vineyard and his tenants killed all the servants and the owners son so that they could gain the son’s inheritance?

Tobias was written, in my opinion, in a literary style that was not uncommon in the day. Tobit claims to be the uncle of a famous literary hero in the story. Do you think that if I were writing a book about the 911 disaster, and the hero in my book claimed to be the uncle of Jack Ryan (the hero in the Tom Clancy novels) that people would accuse me of lying and fallacies, or would they understand that I’m writing a novel?

How can you tell someone to believe in the Bible as the True Word of God, and then tell them that not everything in it is True?

Because I’d be a liar if I told them everything was true.

Let me ask you one more thing. Psalm 40 starts out like this:
***I waited, waited for the LORD; who bent down and heard my cry, Drew me out of the pit of destruction, out of the mud of the swamp, Set my feet upon rock, steadied my steps, and put a new song in my mouth, a hymn to our God.

***Did God pick the psalmist literally out of the mud and put him back on dry ground, or did he lift him out of the mud of sin and turned him back to the Lord?

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

What I’ve been trying to tell you the whole time is that, just because something isn’t true, doesn’t make it a fallacy. Do you call J.R.R. Tolkien a liar because there was no middle earth and no hobbits?

I would never attempt to say that the Lord of the Rings stories had any truth in them.

Do you call Jesus a liar because there was no man that owned a vineyard and his tenants killed all the servants and the owners son so that they could gain the son’s inheritance?

***Who says that at one time in history this did not happen? Jesus did not give a time or place for the event. Therefore it was a story that Jesus told about someone in the past. If you pay attention to the way Jesus introduces the things that He says. His words in the above example begin “There was once a man…” This means that there was once a man who went through what Jesus went on to explain.

What is difficult about that?***

Tobias was written, in my opinion, in a literary style that was not uncommon in the day. Tobit claims to be the uncle of a famous literary hero in the story. Do you think that if I were writing a book about the 911 disaster, and the hero in my book claimed to be the uncle of Jack Ryan (the hero in the Tom Clancy novels) that people would accuse me of lying and fallacies, or would they understand that I’m writing a novel?

They would believe you werre writing a novel. The difference being that the Bible is the WORD OF GOD and to be taken as the TRUTH, which It is. It is not just a novel written with a few partial truths in it.

Because I’d be a liar if I told them everything was true. And that is the difference between the Bible and an historical fictional novel. For if it is not a reference book, it is fiction. A reference book has to be TRUTHFUL and FACTUAL. It can be a book about the French Revolution, and it can even talk about some real occurances that happened at the time. But that does not make it a reference book rather than an historical fictional novel.
So are you saying that the Bible is just an historical, fictional novel?

Let me ask you one more thing. Psalm 40 starts out like this:
***I waited, waited for the LORD; who bent down and heard my cry, Drew me out of the pit of destruction, out of the mud of the swamp, Set my feet upon rock, steadied my steps, and put a new song in my mouth, a hymn to our God.

***Did God pick the psalmist literally out of the mud and put him back on dry ground, or did he lift him out of the mud of sin and turned him back to the Lord?

What you have quoted is a song that someone was singing. It was NEVER claimed to be anything other than that. There is nothing that states that a song must be historically accurate.
You are looking for loopholes. My question is why?

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

And many could say that the story of the Annunciation, Resurrection and Ascension of Christ Jesus was just written in the style of that time. It is not historically accurate…just as you claim that other things are not historically accurate.

So why should anyone believe in Jesus being the Christ?

 

[NotWorthy]

What you have quoted is a song that someone was singing. It was NEVER claimed to be anything other than that. There is nothing that states that a song must be historically accurate.
You are looking for loopholes. My question is why?

I’m not looking for loopholes, but you need to explain to your person who you just told everything in here is the truth (a few posts back) that they don’t need to worry about verses that happened to be songs, since the Jews back then knew it was lyrical. You see where I’m going?

 

[NotWorthy]

And many could say that the story of the Annunciation, Resurrection and Ascension of Christ Jesus was just written in the style of that time. It is not historically accurate…just as you claim that other things are not historically accurate.

So why should anyone believe in Jesus being the Christ?

There’s just one difference.

The Church affirms that the Annunciation, Resurrection, and Ascension are true.

The Church doesn’t affirm that the 6 day Creation account is true, nor does She say that everything in Tobit is true.

Regarding the parables of Jesus, a parable “back in the day” was known by the Jews to be literary devices to prove a truth. The Jews knew that Jesus was teaching a lesson using a story that has no historic reality to it.

 

[Spirithound]

So, how do you evangelize the world with that? You tell them that the Bible is the History of God’s Word…and the story of God among His chosen people. Then you tell them that many things in it are just nice stories that people made up to explain things that they did not understand…which sounds an aweful lot like mythology. Then you tell them that the hardest things to believe, are the absolute truth. Based on what? The Church. The Church uses Scripture to back up Her Faith.
The Faith was around before the Bible. So then you have the problem of explaining that people must put all of their eggs into one basket…the basket of liars.
When explaining that our Faith is the Truth…it doesn’t work well if you say that a big part of where our Faith is written has a bunch of lies.
And you cannot say “we didn’t say that they are lies…just not factual.” If they are not factual, they are fiction. If we use a reference book (which the Bible is) and it is full of fiction, it is no longer used as a reference book. It is a book of fiction…things made up.

And many could say that the story of the Annunciation, Resurrection and Ascension of Christ Jesus was just written in the style of that time. It is not historically accurate…just as you claim that other things are not historically accurate.

So why should anyone believe in Jesus being the Christ?

Let’s stop picking on Tobit for now and look at Judith. In the Book of Judith, a Babylonian king, Nebuchadnezzar, is named as the king of the Assyrians. What do you make of that? The Church acknowledges that the Bible is a library of books of differing genres. The Book of Judith clearly has historical errors, because it clearly is not meant to be read as a history book. It, along with Tobit, along with the stories that Jesus told, are parables. They teach, there’s a moral, a lesson.

Firstly, I wouldn’t use Tobit to evangelize. It’s a great book, but start with the Gospels. We have a New and Everlasting Covenant in Jesus.

You’re really freaking out here, and I really want to help you calm down. We have a teaching Church that defines doctrine for us. It interprets Scripture. It tells us that the things of Jesus’s life are real historical events. It also tells us that there are deep typological and allegorical lessons to be learned from the early parts of Genesis, from Tobit, and from Ruth, but it doesn’t tell us that these passages have to be interpreted in a literalistic manner of scientific accuracy.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I’m not looking for loopholes, but you need to explain to your person who you just told everything in here is the truth (a few posts back) that they don’t need to worry about verses that happened to be songs, since the Jews back then knew it was lyrical. You see where I’m going?

It was a song and a prayer that someone wrote…it was worth repeating for all time. Since when is a prayer considered an historical event?

On the other hand, the story told of Tobit and Tobias is written as an historical event.

Can you honestly not see the difference?

My question remains of why you are looking for loopholes. It doesn’t take much to see the difference between a prayer that someone said to God, and an historical event.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

There’s just one difference.

The Church affirms that the Annunciation, Resurrection, and Ascension are true.

The Church doesn’t affirm that the 6 day Creation account is true, nor does She say that everything in Tobit is true.

Regarding the parables of Jesus, a parable “back in the day” was known by the Jews to be literary devices to prove a truth. The Jews knew that Jesus was teaching a lesson using a story that has no historic reality to it.

Notworthy, you were the one who posed the question. I just answered it. I do not have the Bible in front of me at this time, so I am not sure that Jesus told the crowds that it was a parable. If not, my answer makes perfect sense. For God surely knew all men who had ever lived. He could tell a story about one if He so chose. And He did not, nor said anything to make it sound as though it was happening at that time.
The story of Tobit is completely different.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Let’s stop picking on Tobit for now and look at Judith. In the Book of Judith, a Babylonian king, Nebuchadnezzar, is named as the king of the Assyrians. What do you make of that? The Church acknowledges that the Bible is a library of books of differing genres. The Book of Judith clearly has historical errors, because it clearly is not meant to be read as a history book. It, along with Tobit, along with the stories that Jesus told, are parables. They teach, there’s a moral, a lesson.

Firstly, I wouldn’t use Tobit to evangelize. It’s a great book, but start with the Gospels. We have a New and Everlasting Covenant in Jesus.

You’re really freaking out here, and I really want to help you calm down. We have a teaching Church that defines doctrine for us. It interprets Scripture. It tells us that the things of Jesus’s life are real historical events. It also tells us that there are deep typological and allegorical lessons to be learned from the early parts of Genesis, from Tobit, and from Ruth, but it doesn’t tell us that these passages have to be interpreted in a literalistic manner of scientific accuracy.

And I have EVERY reason in the world to believe that you are wrong. Are you for certain that there was only one King Nebachudnezzar? Could he have had a son, nephew, grandson, great uncle, father or grandfather?

Fact is that the Bible is the biggest evangelization tool used. So if someone is willing to read the Bible, and then talk to someone like you with questions…how in the world are you going to convince them that some parts that seem fictional are Truth, and some are just nice stories to teach a lesson…like mythology?

 

[NotWorthy]

It was a song and a prayer that someone wrote…it was worth repeating for all time. Since when is a prayer considered an historical event?

On the other hand, the story told of Tobit and Tobias is written as an historical event.

Can you honestly not see the difference?

Yes, I can honestly see the difference. I’m just using baby steps with you.

Now, as I mentioned before, you said that everything in the bible is true, and yet even you admit that “everything” does not always mean “everything”. I mentioned that Jesus used parables, something the ancient Jews knew were moral stories, smack dab in the middle of historical books (the Gospels). That doesn’t de-legitimize everything Jesus taught or the Gospel authors wrote, now does it?

My question remains of why you are looking for loopholes. It doesn’t take much to see the difference between a prayer that someone said to God, and an historical event.

I’ll tell you what. The next time you’re in Rome telling the Pope how he should run the Church, why don’t you ask him why he’s looking for a loophole.

 

[NotWorthy]

Notworthy, you were the one who posed the question. I just answered it. I do not have the Bible in front of me at this time, so I am not sure that Jesus told the crowds that it was a parable. If not, my answer makes perfect sense. For God surely knew all men who had ever lived. He could tell a story about one if He so chose. And He did not, nor said anything to make it sound as though it was happening at that time.

Let’s look at one:
4 And when a great crowd came together and people from town after town came to him, he said in a parable: 5 “A sower went out to sow his seed; and as he sowed, some fell along the path, and was trodden under foot, and the birds of the air devoured it. 6 And some fell on the rock; and as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture. 7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns grew with it and choked it. 8 And some fell into good soil and grew, and yielded a hundredfold.” As he said this, he called out, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.” 9 And when his disciples asked him what this parable meant, 10 he said, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God; but for others they are in parables, so that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand. 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God…

As you can see, the gospel author knew it was a parable, the disciples knew it was a parable, and Jesus readily declared it a parable.

The story of Tobit is completely different.

But it is a type of Jewish literary genre that the ancients understood for what it was. No loopholes. No inconsistencies. Simply God speaking to us in a way that our feeble little minds can understand.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

When Jesus taught using parables, he said so.

Where does the author of the book of Tobit say that it is a literary story or parable or fable?

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

The minds of the Jewish people, and those in the time of Noah were every bit as capable of understanding as we are.

Intelligence has not evolved in 8000 years, only knowledge. And people understood what they were told 8000 years ago.

God would not need to have someone write a story in an historical event style that was not a historical event. THAT would have been confusing. How would they know when God was telling them something accurate, or just a good story?
And it does matter when God is TRUTH!!!

 

[NotWorthy]

When Jesus taught using parables, he said so.

Where does the author of the book of Tobit say that it is a literary story or parable or fable?

First of all, I want you to admit that a “story” can teach us the truth.

 

[NotWorthy]

The minds of the Jewish people, and those in the time of Noah were every bit as capable of understanding as we are.

Intelligence has not evolved in 8000 years, only knowledge. And people understood what they were told 8000 years ago.

God would not need to have someone write a story in an historical event style that was not a historical event. THAT would have been confusing. How would they know when God was telling them something accurate, or just a good story?
And it does matter when God is TRUTH!!!

So is the Church in error when She allows the faithful to believe that Creation took place over millions of years?

You think intelligence has not evolved? So, our good Israelites would have understood atoms, proton, neutrons, and quarks?

 

[diggerdomer]

Nowhere. But so what?

Where does the author claim this is “factual historical truth” as we would expect from a CNN newscast?

Nowhere. So what?

Also, Jesus frequently tells parables (as most of us understand them) without specifically saying “here’s a parable” or “here’s a story I’m telling that is fictional but the point I’m trying to convey is truthful”?

Do you interpret the story of the prodigal son as literally true? (Luke 15).

Was Jesus telling us about a real-life factual family? Does it matter one way or another?

If you say yes, this was a real family, well, show us where in the Gospel that Jesus says this was a “factual” teaching vs. a parable (similar to his common teaching method). What were the names of the people involved?

If you say no, well then can’t we allow that Tobit might have been a similar composition?

 

[Contarini]

You think intelligence has not evolved? So, our good Israelites would have understood atoms, proton, neutrons, and quarks?

Do you? I sure don’t!

I’m sure there were ancient Israelites who would have understood these things if you could have kidnapped them in infancy, put them into a time machine, brought them to our day, and given them a scientific education. In other words, the reason they wouldn’t understand these things if a modern scientist went back and tried to explain them is not that they intrinsically lacked the intelligence to do so, but that they would have no frame of reference.

Edwin