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Padraig_77
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See post #17.
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juliamajor
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Sorry post 17 proves nothing.
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Padraig_77
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I beg to differ. As that quote from The Catholic Encyclopedia clearly demonstrates, the Church Fathers and exegetes have always considered this book to be historical and it wasn’t until recently that liberal/modernist “thinkers” have decided to lower the value of Scripture by claiming that it contains “errors”. This all basically stems from modernists who want to conform the Bible to man’s fallible opinions, particularly with the rise of Darwinism and the acceptance of “theistic evolution” within the Church.
I find it extremely odd that you are so eager to proclaim that this book contains errors, rather than try to defend it, like any rational Catholic, faithful to Scripture and Tradition would do.
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juliamajor
Guest
Biblical Commission (23 June, 1905). By this Decree Catholics are forbidden to hold that a book of the Holy Writ, which has generally been looked upon as historical, is either entirely or in part not history properly so called, unless it be proven by solid arguments that the sacred writer did not wish to write history; and the solidity of the arguments against the historicity of an historical book of the Bible we are not to admit either readily or rashly. Now the arguments against the historical worth of Tobias are not at all solid; they are mere conjectures, which it would be most rash to admit.The problem is that you select what you want to hear and discard what don’t Read your own quote.There is solid evidence. Much more is known about Scripture and interpretation since the discoveries of Dead Sea Scrolls, libraries at Ebla, Marie etc.Read PiusXll Divino spiritu afflante.-.Much more is known about the time , the era and folklore involved. Parables are an honorable, inspired way to teach truths why people are so hung up on "history’ is beyond me. If you are not cognizant of the evidence- how can you make a correct judgment? ECF where not infallible, and not omniscient .Errors- what errors did I find.?I love the book and it’s teaching of fidelity , hope and complete trust in God.If that’s an error so be it.
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Padraig_77
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Try to lose the attitude. I’m not interested in hearing people who deny Scripture, such as yourself. Rather, I’m interested in hearing from who actually believe the Scripture and don’t just pick-and-choose what they like and what they don’t like which you seem to do.
The “solid” evidence that these books contain historical is non-existent. The answers to these claims are indeed out there, but finding them is the question. I’m sure you would also claim that there is “solid evidence” that the Book of Judith is historically inaccurate as well. The fact is, the claims that Judith contains errors have been refuted (see here). Likewise these claims that Tobit contains errors can also be refuted. Cornelius a Lapide wrote a commentary on the Deuterocanonicals that apparently refutes all of the claims I mentioned in the first post, unfortunately I have not been able to find his commentary that contains this information.
I just find it odd that you seem to want the book to be historically inaccurate and fictional.
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egrenelle
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For the historical accuracy of Tobit, try reading “On the Reliability of the Old Testament” by K.A. Kitchens. It is a rather thick book but it is well written, well researched and well foot-noted. Prof. Kitchens is a well respected Old Testament scholar. In general, his text supports O.T. reliability. Good Luck
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Padraig_77
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Thanks! I found it on Google Books. Would you happen to know what page Tobit is dealt with in the book?
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NotWorthy
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As to its historicity, the Navarre Bible says this:
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ryanoneil
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5 Myths about 7 Books talks about this issue in Myth 3.
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donalddon5
Guest
A very excellent comment. I would even go one step further and say that the book of Tobit is a HOLY scripture made HOLY by the Spirit of God and therefore contains no inaccuracies.Then Tobias asked the angel, and said to him: I beseech thee, brother Azarias, tell me what remedies are these things good for, which thou hast bid me keep of the fish? 8 And the angel, answering, said to him: If thou put a little piece of its heart upon coals, the smoke thereof driveth away all kind of devils, either from man or from woman, so that they come no more to them.
What is the fish symbolic of? What is the heat of the fish symbolic of? There is a spiritual meaning behind these actions, which is why they are put forth – Rather like when Moses held up the bronze serpent for all the Israelites to look upon and be healed.
Are bronze serpents magic? No. Was the fish magical? No.
It was made a holy sacramental, with a spiritual meaning behind its use.
There’s more to this particular example but I’ll let the people who wish to find it seek and find it.
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Light_Seeker
Guest
As a fisherman, I was amazed at the thought of a fresh water fish preying on a man at the bank, ready to swallow Tobias up! 
What is this, a fresh water shark?
But I find Haydock’s commentary quite interesting…
What is this, a fresh water shark?But I find Haydock’s commentary quite interesting…
Perhaps it was a pike. Or I’m more inclined to believe a species that may have become extinct over the last 3000 years. And the medical science of the time view it as a good ointment for eye ailments … some ‘folk medicine’ that may have some true basis, & we’ve lost the knowledge.
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donalddon5
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If I may present a thoughtful argument here:
According to the Vatican the following is apply for my argument:
“The examples given show that different methods were used, taken from their cultural surroundings, as we have seen above.38 The texts speak of typology39 and of reading in the light of the Spirit (2 Co 3:14-17). These suggest a twofold manner of reading, in its original meaning at the time of writing, and a subsequent interpretation in the light of Christ.”
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/pcb_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20020212_popolo-ebraico_en.html#4.%20Important%20Allusions%20to%20the%20Old%20Testament
Now my argument:
I am outside the Roman Catholic Church but yet have had the same experiences as some of the people inside the Church. So, if I was to tell you a very similar Vision/experience that a particular saint had when he saw the feet of Christ and it radiant brilliant colors, would it be viewed by others as a copy-cat. Of course it would and not just by a few but the vast majority. Now let us take another example of the experience of Saint John when he told of his vision about the vision of Christ and all sorts of scholars (including renown Catholic scholars) have said that Saint John the Apostle was a copy-cat because his visions was very much in sync as the old testament prophets. (although maybe not in those exact words “copy-cat”). Well, I can tell you that I myself have had experiences that was very similar in nature and if I was to write them down then I also would be viewed as a copy-cat, especially given that I am not a Roman Catholic.
Now to conclude my argument:
Could it be possible that some of the cultural surroundings had the same experience as the Jews. This to me would prove that the work of God is everywhere not that each religion is trying to copy each other. And it all points to a focal point and that being first the Hebrews, then Christ, and then the Apostolic church, and then the Roman Catholic Church(Kingdom of God).
According to the Vatican the following is apply for my argument:
“The examples given show that different methods were used, taken from their cultural surroundings, as we have seen above.38 The texts speak of typology39 and of reading in the light of the Spirit (2 Co 3:14-17). These suggest a twofold manner of reading, in its original meaning at the time of writing, and a subsequent interpretation in the light of Christ.”
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/pcb_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20020212_popolo-ebraico_en.html#4.%20Important%20Allusions%20to%20the%20Old%20Testament
Now my argument:
I am outside the Roman Catholic Church but yet have had the same experiences as some of the people inside the Church. So, if I was to tell you a very similar Vision/experience that a particular saint had when he saw the feet of Christ and it radiant brilliant colors, would it be viewed by others as a copy-cat. Of course it would and not just by a few but the vast majority. Now let us take another example of the experience of Saint John when he told of his vision about the vision of Christ and all sorts of scholars (including renown Catholic scholars) have said that Saint John the Apostle was a copy-cat because his visions was very much in sync as the old testament prophets. (although maybe not in those exact words “copy-cat”). Well, I can tell you that I myself have had experiences that was very similar in nature and if I was to write them down then I also would be viewed as a copy-cat, especially given that I am not a Roman Catholic.
Now to conclude my argument:
Could it be possible that some of the cultural surroundings had the same experience as the Jews. This to me would prove that the work of God is everywhere not that each religion is trying to copy each other. And it all points to a focal point and that being first the Hebrews, then Christ, and then the Apostolic church, and then the Roman Catholic Church(Kingdom of God).
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dannydiab
Guest
Concerning the claim that"…the Book of Tobit teaches “magic”": The following is a beautiful commentary by the Seraphic Doctor, Saint Bonaventure, on the passage in question:
“Raphael by interpretation is : The Medicine of God. Consider therefore the three remedies bestowed upon us by Raphael which are, as it were, medicines to heal our sickness. First of all Raphael the physician would deliver us from infirmity of soul by inducing within us the bitterness of contrition. This is attested by the Book of Tobit, where we read how Raphael telleth Tobias to anoint his father’s eyes with gall ; and how, when it was done, Tobit did see. Could not Raphael have done the anointing himself? Nay, for an Angel cannot give repentance, but only shew the way thither. For by gall we are minded of that bitterness of contrition which is healing for the interior eyes of the soul, as saith the Psalm : He healeth those that are broken in heart : for if we would have spiritual insight, surely contrition is the best eye-salve. In Chapter two of the Book of Judges we are told that the Angel of the Lord ascended to the Place of Weepers, and said to the people : I made you go up out of Egypt ; and I have done unto you thus and thus, naming many great and good things : and all the people wept, so that they called the name of that place Bochim (that is, the Place of Weepers). Dearly beloved, all day long Angels do set before us the good things of God, and put us in remembrance of them, to wit : Who is it that created thee? who is it that redeemed thee? how doest thou? whom hast thou offended? If ye consider these things, ye have no recourse except tears of repentance.
Secondly, Raphael would deliver us from the devil’s bondage by putting us in remembrance of the passion of Christ. This is set forth in Chapter six of the Book of Tobit under a figure of the heart of the fish which, when it is burning, driveth away all kinds of evil spirits. And again in Chapter eight, where we are told that Tobias placed the heart on live coals and the evil spirit fled into the utmost parts of Egypt, and the Angel bound him. What is this? Could Raphael bind an evil spirit only when the heart of a fish is set on fire? Did the Angel need a fish to enhearten him with great strength? Not at all! There is nothing worthwhile here except we take it mystically. Now the fish is a long-used symbol of Christ, because its letters in Greek are the initials of these words : Jesus Christ, Son of God, the Saviour. And so we may understand by the heart of the fish that there is nothing today to free us from the bondage of the devil except the passion of Christ, which same proceedeth from the depth of himself, namely, his Heart burning with love. For the heart is the fervent fountain of all life. The Heart of Christ, whence his passion proceeded, is the source of a charity which burneth with love, and so is the cause of devotion in us. But thy memory is often to thee coals of fire. If therefore thou wilt place the Heart of Christ within thee, upon the dead coals of thy memories, and let them burn with the flames of that Heart, at once the devil will leave thee. Yea, he will be rendered harmless, as though he were bound.
Thirdly Raphael would deliver us from the wrath of God, incurred by sinning against him, and this he would do by inducing in us greater earnestness in prayer. Consider how the Angel Raphael, according to Chapter twelve of the Book of Tobit, said : When thou didst pray, I did bring the remembrance thereof before the Holy One. For in such fashion the Angels do all that they can to reconcile us to God. The devils are the fallen angels who accuse us before God. But the holy Angels excuse us, namely, when they bring before God those prayers which they have already stirred us up to offer more devoutly. Thus Chapter eight of the Apocalypse saith : The smoke of the incense ascended up before God out of the Angel’s hand. For those sweet-smelling savours are the prayers of the saints. Wouldst thou appease God whom thou hast offended? Pray with devotion. And Angels will offer thy prayer to God in order to reconcile thee to God. It is related by Luke that Christ, being in an agony, prayed more earnestly, and that there appeared an Angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And all this was done for our sakes, for he had no need of such comfort. Yea, it was done to shew us how the Angels assist those who pray earnestly, and how they freely help and strengthen all who pray, and how they do offer our prayers to God.”
View attachment 5078
(Christ protecting Saint Menas)
“Raphael by interpretation is : The Medicine of God. Consider therefore the three remedies bestowed upon us by Raphael which are, as it were, medicines to heal our sickness. First of all Raphael the physician would deliver us from infirmity of soul by inducing within us the bitterness of contrition. This is attested by the Book of Tobit, where we read how Raphael telleth Tobias to anoint his father’s eyes with gall ; and how, when it was done, Tobit did see. Could not Raphael have done the anointing himself? Nay, for an Angel cannot give repentance, but only shew the way thither. For by gall we are minded of that bitterness of contrition which is healing for the interior eyes of the soul, as saith the Psalm : He healeth those that are broken in heart : for if we would have spiritual insight, surely contrition is the best eye-salve. In Chapter two of the Book of Judges we are told that the Angel of the Lord ascended to the Place of Weepers, and said to the people : I made you go up out of Egypt ; and I have done unto you thus and thus, naming many great and good things : and all the people wept, so that they called the name of that place Bochim (that is, the Place of Weepers). Dearly beloved, all day long Angels do set before us the good things of God, and put us in remembrance of them, to wit : Who is it that created thee? who is it that redeemed thee? how doest thou? whom hast thou offended? If ye consider these things, ye have no recourse except tears of repentance.
Secondly, Raphael would deliver us from the devil’s bondage by putting us in remembrance of the passion of Christ. This is set forth in Chapter six of the Book of Tobit under a figure of the heart of the fish which, when it is burning, driveth away all kinds of evil spirits. And again in Chapter eight, where we are told that Tobias placed the heart on live coals and the evil spirit fled into the utmost parts of Egypt, and the Angel bound him. What is this? Could Raphael bind an evil spirit only when the heart of a fish is set on fire? Did the Angel need a fish to enhearten him with great strength? Not at all! There is nothing worthwhile here except we take it mystically. Now the fish is a long-used symbol of Christ, because its letters in Greek are the initials of these words : Jesus Christ, Son of God, the Saviour. And so we may understand by the heart of the fish that there is nothing today to free us from the bondage of the devil except the passion of Christ, which same proceedeth from the depth of himself, namely, his Heart burning with love. For the heart is the fervent fountain of all life. The Heart of Christ, whence his passion proceeded, is the source of a charity which burneth with love, and so is the cause of devotion in us. But thy memory is often to thee coals of fire. If therefore thou wilt place the Heart of Christ within thee, upon the dead coals of thy memories, and let them burn with the flames of that Heart, at once the devil will leave thee. Yea, he will be rendered harmless, as though he were bound.
Thirdly Raphael would deliver us from the wrath of God, incurred by sinning against him, and this he would do by inducing in us greater earnestness in prayer. Consider how the Angel Raphael, according to Chapter twelve of the Book of Tobit, said : When thou didst pray, I did bring the remembrance thereof before the Holy One. For in such fashion the Angels do all that they can to reconcile us to God. The devils are the fallen angels who accuse us before God. But the holy Angels excuse us, namely, when they bring before God those prayers which they have already stirred us up to offer more devoutly. Thus Chapter eight of the Apocalypse saith : The smoke of the incense ascended up before God out of the Angel’s hand. For those sweet-smelling savours are the prayers of the saints. Wouldst thou appease God whom thou hast offended? Pray with devotion. And Angels will offer thy prayer to God in order to reconcile thee to God. It is related by Luke that Christ, being in an agony, prayed more earnestly, and that there appeared an Angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And all this was done for our sakes, for he had no need of such comfort. Yea, it was done to shew us how the Angels assist those who pray earnestly, and how they freely help and strengthen all who pray, and how they do offer our prayers to God.”
View attachment 5078
(Christ protecting Saint Menas)
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Shin
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donalddon5
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God done things thousands of years earlier so that His elect like
The Seraphic Doctor, Saint Bonaventure could reveal his glory to us.
The Seraphic Doctor, Saint Bonaventure could reveal his glory to us.
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Jesus_N_Cherie
Guest
What’s the mania about attempting to prove any of it is not historical? You all are the ones who are trying to tear apart, albeit through the back door, the credibility of the WORD OF GOD !!!
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Jesus_N_Cherie
Guest
HOORAH!!!
:clapping: :extrahappy:
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Jesus_N_Cherie
Guest
What is a parable in the Bible is clearly stated in God’s Word as being a parable. So what is the confusion between that which God stated was a parable so that we would always know the difference? Why did God let us know that He was speaking in parables if we were not supposed to differentiate between the parables and historical facts? Why does God seem to be so smart and caring if He just leaves it all up to OPINION?
Why is it so important for you to tear apart the WORD OF GOD? And do not say that you love the book…unless you say that you also love Shakespeare in the exact same way. Do you honestly not realize that your false interpretations of the Bible stories being just good stories with a moral behind them are devaluing the WORD OF GOD to Shakespeare value?
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Jesus_N_Cherie
Guest
That’s a narrative of someone like yourself who wants to devalue the accurate WORD OF GOD !!!
If there were lies in the Bible, none of the Bible would hold value…do you not understand that?
Do you know nothing of the importance of discrediting a witness in the court of law? Once the witness is discredited about anything, his testimony is worthless to the court.
Why would you want to discredit the Word of God?..which, by the way, it is impossible to do in truth.
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