Proving the Historical Accuracy of Tobit (Tobias)

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donalddon5 said:
Of three days’ journey… By the computation of some ancient historians, Ninive was about fifty miles round: so that to go through all the chief streets and public places was three days’ journey.

The above reply is excert from : newadvent.org/bible/jon003.htm
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OK, I’ll buy that. 50 miles around - that would make it about 15 miles across - still rather large, but not unbelievably large.
 
NotWorthy said:
But three days? I think I could walk through Houston in two days (give or take for dodging traffic ;)) and I doubt if Ninevah was that big.
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No modern city is that big! No ancient city was for sure… .Archaeology has never found any city that big- it’s an exaggeration to say the least- probably to show really important it was. I don’t think dodging donkeys , oxcarts and the manure lining the street would really slow one down that much!😃
 
juliamajor said:
No modern city is that big! No ancient city was for sure… .Archaeology has never found any city that big- it’s an exaggeration to say the least- probably to show really important it was. I don’t think dodging donkeys , oxcarts and the manure lining the street would really slow one down that much!😃
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I think our good donalddon5 found a good explanation for this. Instead of thinking of a 3 day journey through the center of the city, think of it taking 3 days to preach through each major section of the city.
donalddon5 said:
Of three days’ journey… By the computation of some ancient historians, Ninive was about fifty miles round: so that to go through all the chief streets and public places was three days’ journey.

The above reply is excert from : newadvent.org/bible/jon003.htm
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Roman Army could do 50 miles a day on forced march even with full gear!
 
juliamajor said:
Roman Army could do 50 miles a day on forced march even with full gear!
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No argument, there. Those guys learned from the Greeks that “Speed Kills”!

But with a valid explanation of what 3 days to pass through a city means, I’m cool with that.
 
NotWorthy said:
No argument, there. Those guys learned from the Greeks that “Speed Kills”!

But with a valid explanation of what 3 days to pass through a city means, I’m cool with that.
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Also, remember that 3 days can mean just a part of the first and third days. Like when Jesus died at about 3PM Friday and rose from the dead by sunrise Sunday, and in between He “preached to the spirits in prison”, which Jonah foreshadowed.
 
diggerdomer said:
One finds the story of Divine Love outside the Bible as well.

Your analogy with Cinderella is ludicrous. I didn’t say or claim that one should fall in love with Cinderella as if she were a real person. You are putting words into my mouth (so to speak, in this medium). I in no way presented what you claim. You misunderstood (at least).

Please, if you don’t understand something I type, or want me to clarify, just say so.

Your final statement is something I simply don’t understand. Please clarify.

Why do we believe in the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist? Precisely for the reasons you (knowingly or not) state: the witness of the Bible and Tradition.

And if people are punching holes in the accuracy of the Bible, why should a person convert to Christianity based upon it? I mean, that makes no sense. And you have failed to answer my comments and questions about it. All you say is that it doesn’t have to be accurate to be true or teach a lesson. I beg to differ. If it isn’t accurate, it isn’t true…regardless of the fabled lesson. They could easily say that the Eucharist is a fabled lesson…or the Resurrection and Ascension. Tradition and the Bible work together. To discredit the accuracy of one is to bring about scandal to the other.

If the Bible contains fables, as a literary genre…so what? I fail to see any inconsistency here, and from everything I’ve read neither does the Catholic Church.

***Cinderella is a fable to teach a lesson. That is it’s genre. How can you compare the Bible to it, or put the Bible in the same classification as it? One is not true, but teaches a lesson. One is totally true and teaches the lesson. One is fiction, the other reference.
Do you need more references? Try the Catechism para 50-141. Try the Ponticial Biblical Commission. Try Vatican II’s Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation (Dei Verbum). I fully adhere to everything those sources teach.
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And once again, there is nothing that the Church says to make me believe that what I believe and teach is wrong in any way. I haven’t attempted to take away your right to believe less of God than He deserves in my opinion. You have that right. I, just as well have the absolute right to believe as I do. And the Church backs up my opinion every bit as much as it backs up yours. You are as guilty of putting down my faith as you claim I am in putting down your lack of faith.
 
Luke65 said:
Of course not. Most of the fossils we find, including dino bones, are creatures that were buried in the Flood. That’s the whole point: the fossil record is a stark reminder of the consequences of sin. To say that these animals died millions of years before Adam sinned makes God the Author of death and suffering.

“How long, O men, will you turn my glory into shame?
How long will you love delusions and seek false gods?
Selah” (Psalm 4:2)

Who should we believe, the false god “Science”, or God, the only eyewitness Who cannot lie? :hmmm:
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Amen!!!
 
Jesus_N_Cherie said:
Luke, I am so glad you are here.
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Originally Posted by Luke65 View Post
Seriously? No, any theory that contradicts the Word of God must be rejected. I wish you guys would dispense with the straw man arguments.
Luke, I am so glad you are here.
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I’m glad too.

I just wish Luke would answer the question that a number of people have asked.
 
juliamajor said:
You still haven’t answered my question. And isn’t the point of this forum debate? again you’ve read but not understood. and answer a question with a question . How politic of you.
Fictional is not a dirty word- it doesn’t imply lies- that’s your definition. Some important things came out of these"fictional" stories, you have stated. No kidding. But again what does historical accuracy have to do with it? What’s more important the historical fact that Jonah was swallowed by a big fish? Let’s see.-

The Lord commanded the fish, and it spewed Jonah out upon dry land
For something so important to my understanding of Jesus’ use of it, the belly of the fish gets short shrift.
Lets look at it.What was Jesus really saying? Talking just about His three days in the Tomb?
Or is it like Psalm 22, the one that Jesus quotes on the cross" my God, my God why have you forsaken me? You see that’s only a tiny part of the psalm . Those in the know would remember that what starts in pain in agony in the psalm ends in triumph and victory. Just like Jesus death and resurrection.
You can see by Jonah’s prayer that the belly of the fish and the tomb are not the only analogies. /COLOR] " from the belly of Sheol I cried out" , Jesus cried out didn’t he -Sheol, the netherworld where Jesus set the captives free.“And you heard my voice” again crying out in pain and victory.“you cast me into the depths” Jesus ’ death and burial.“I thought I was driven away” again psalm22." out of your sight" burial.
“would I ever gaze Upon Your Holy temple?“God’s eternal temple in heaven. “the waters closed over me” death and tomb akin to ‘a watery grave’“weeds twined around my head” crown of thorns can be prefigured there.'The bars of the earth closed upon me forever” again prefigure Jesus’ death and grave.’ Yet you brought my life up from the pit’ ‘pit, nether world, sheol’,- back from the grave -resurrection! “When my life was ebbing away, I called the Lord to mind” -“Father into your hands I commend my Spirit’.” And my prayer came before You , into your Holy Temple” the Father listens to the Son always.“What I have vowed I will perform” ’ God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son’.“Deliverance is the Lord’s” He saved us from our sins thru His sacrifice.
you see I do believe the Bible and I do get it- whether Jonah was in the belly of the fish or not is not as important as what Jesus implied by the use of Jonah and the prayer that is such a more vital part then the fish.
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Okay, I understood all of that…and it makes it even more special that God really did have Jonah swallowed by the fish.
You miss the point about Jonah being commanded by God to go into Ninevah…a city ripe with sin that God was going to destroy. He wanted Jonah to warn them and give them a chance to repent. Jonah tried to run away from the command of God. He got on a boat. God caused a storm to come to let Jonah know that he could not hide from God. Once Jonah told the ship’s crew that his disobedience to God was the cause of the storm, the crew did as Jonah advised and threw him overboard. They prayed to God that He would not punish them for this…as they believed what Jonah said. God immediately calmed the storm, and a fish came and swallowed Jonah. When Jonah repented of his sin of disobedience and told God he would do as God commanded, God commanded the fish to spit Jonah out onto dry land.
Then Jonah went to the city of Nineveh and spoke God’s warning. The king commanded all citizens to fast and repent and wear sackcloth. God’s mercy came shining through.

See, you seem to have missed the point of Jonah. It is very important to believe that God actually did these things…or else what have people to worry about in disobeying His command?
In today’s world, few people believe in the Bible as accurate. Therefore few people worry about the consequences of so called sin.
Do you think that by telling them that they are right to not believe in the Bible stories as accurate will ever help them to change their minds?
NO!!! Just the opposite. It encourages them to go forth in their heathen ways.

I never said that fiction was horrible. I said that it was not Truth. There is a huge difference between the 2. Do you honestly not understand the difference between a made up story and a true story? One story says that 100 years ago aliens landed and showed everyone exactly what they were. They took people on rides…charging them a million dollars. That is fiction. A wonderful story to read, but not to be taken as truth.
The Bible is not fiction, and it is always to be taken as absolute truth.
To say that some of it is fiction and some is not will deter people from accepting the Truth. It makes it confusing as far as what they should believe, and what they shouldn’t believe. And, despite what you say, it is important that these things truly happened…or else it undermines the Faith we have in the history of our Salvation. Our salvation did not begin and end with the Cross and Resurrection. It began with the Creation…and will end with our eternal reward.

Why would anyone want to attempt to remove any of that? What purpose does it serve? It certainly does not make me have a better understanding of the Truth of God’s Word.

St. Peter spoke about the arrogance and ignorance of those who would not believe in the story of Noah as told by tradition in the end times…and how calamity would strike them unawares at the end because they would not believe it was going to happen.

St. Peter obviously believed it to be an historically accurate event. And His best friend and companion for three years was Christ Himself walking among him and talking with him. Don’t you think that the Holy Spirit and Jesus gave St. Peter good counsel? If it wasn’t Truth, why did the Council that put the books of the Bible together under the guidance of the Holy Spirit include that part?
If one does not believe in the historical accuracy of the Bible story of Noah, what point is there in including it?
There have been approved prophecies by the Church where it clearly states that the end will come when men all over the world have become wicked in ways that haven’t been seen since before the deluge. In other words, there was a deluge. They are exact references to truthful, accurate accounts of Noah and the flood.

You say that science “proves that the flood and the story of Noah never happened”.
I totally agree with Luke. Where science contradicts the Bible, the Bible is to be believed over science.
And the Church states that also.
 
diggerdomer said:
This did nothing to clarify your previous posting.

Please try again.

If not, that’s fine, I’ll let others try to figure out what you’re trying to say and respond accordingly in accordance with Catholic Church teaching. I’m sure they’ll have better luck intuiting what you’re trying to say.
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He answered your question perfectly, diggerdomer. Why don’t you clarify your question better.
 
NotWorthy said:
Here’s something that always makes me wonder about the Book of Jonah.

So Jonah made ready and went to Nineveh, according to the LORD’S bidding. Now Nineveh was an enormously large city; it took three days to go through it.

I don’t know of any cities today that take 3 days to go through.

Now, I’m not just saying… But I’m just saying. :hmmm:
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When is the last time you tried to walk from one end of New York City…or London…or Rome to the other when there were no side walks to keep you from becoming drenched in mud holes? When did you do this while having to stop and work for your food and boarding? Three days? That doesn’t seem very long at all.

Not only that, but he was stopping and talking to people on the way. And he was doing all he could to convince them to believe him.
What, again, is difficult to believe about the three days?
 
Jesus_N_Cherie said:
He answered your question perfectly, diggerdomer. Why don’t you clarify your question better.
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I disagree.

And since the OP has not responded, if you have a question/concern, please share it and speak for yourself (and not for the OP who has not yet responded).

Thanks.
 
monina said:
Not at all. A heathen arguing with a Sola Scriptura Christian would be able to use that argument, but not with a Catholic.

We as Catholics are blessed with the Holy Mother Church, which we can take recourse to. So when a heathen says, “well, you say Jonah was never literally swallowed by a whale–how can you believe that Jesus literally rose from the dead?” we Catholics can reply, “We have been given guidelines for interpreting Scripture through the wisdom of our wonderful Magisterium.”

I don’t understand, JnC, why you sound so harsh and strident about something that does not contradict Catholic teaching. You sound as if you believe those who do not believe the world was created in 6 days are professing heresy. We as Catholics are allowed to believe in evolution.

Also, what is your response to NotWorthy’s question about the destruction in the temple being used as a past event in a story that preceded the destruction? How could that be historically accurate?
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IN the beginning of this thread, there was a book referenced to explain the supposed inaccuracies of the destruction in the temple.
I have no need to read the book, as my faith in the historical accuracy of the Bible is not in doubt.
I have no time to read except what I need in order to grow. This is irrelevant to me…but not to someone who questions the validity of the Bible.
 
Jesus_N_Cherie said:
Okay, I understood all of that…and it makes it even more special that God really did have Jonah swallowed by the fish.
You miss the point about Jonah being commanded by God to go into Ninevah…a city ripe with sin that God was going to destroy. He wanted Jonah to warn them and give them a chance to repent. Jonah tried to run away from the command of God. He got on a boat. God caused a storm to come to let Jonah know that he could not hide from God. Once Jonah told the ship’s crew that his disobedience to God was the cause of the storm, the crew did as Jonah advised and threw him overboard. They prayed to God that He would not punish them for this…as they believed what Jonah said. God immediately calmed the storm, and a fish came and swallowed Jonah. When Jonah repented of his sin of disobedience and told God he would do as God commanded, God commanded the fish to spit Jonah out onto dry land.
Then Jonah went to the city of Nineveh and spoke God’s warning. The king commanded all citizens to fast and repent and wear sackcloth. God’s mercy came shining through.

See, you seem to have missed the point of Jonah. It is very important to believe that God actually did these things…or else what have people to worry about in disobeying His command?
In today’s world, few people believe in the Bible as accurate. Therefore few people worry about the consequences of so called sin.
Do you think that by telling them that they are right to not believe in the Bible stories as accurate will ever help them to change their minds?
NO!!! Just the opposite. It encourages them to go forth in their heathen ways.

I never said that fiction was horrible. I said that it was not Truth. There is a huge difference between the 2. Do you honestly not understand the difference between a made up story and a true story? One story says that 100 years ago aliens landed and showed everyone exactly what they were. They took people on rides…charging them a million dollars. That is fiction. A wonderful story to read, but not to be taken as truth.
The Bible is not fiction, and it is always to be taken as absolute truth.
To say that some of it is fiction and some is not will deter people from accepting the Truth. It makes it confusing as far as what they should believe, and what they shouldn’t believe. And, despite what you say, it is important that these things truly happened…or else it undermines the Faith we have in the history of our Salvation. Our salvation did not begin and end with the Cross and Resurrection. It began with the Creation…and will end with our eternal reward.

Why would anyone want to attempt to remove any of that? What purpose does it serve? It certainly does not make me have a better understanding of the Truth of God’s Word.

St. Peter spoke about the arrogance and ignorance of those who would not believe in the story of Noah as told by tradition in the end times…and how calamity would strike them unawares at the end because they would not believe it was going to happen.

St. Peter obviously believed it to be an historically accurate event. And His best friend and companion for three years was Christ Himself walking among him and talking with him. Don’t you think that the Holy Spirit and Jesus gave St. Peter good counsel? If it wasn’t Truth, why did the Council that put the books of the Bible together under the guidance of the Holy Spirit include that part?
If one does not believe in the historical accuracy of the Bible story of Noah, what point is there in including it?
There have been approved prophecies by the Church where it clearly states that the end will come when men all over the world have become wicked in ways that haven’t been seen since before the deluge. In other words, there was a deluge. They are exact references to truthful, accurate accounts of Noah and the flood.

You say that science “proves that the flood and the story of Noah never happened”.
I totally agree with Luke. Where science contradicts the Bible, the Bible is to be believed over science.
And the Church states that also.
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Apparently you missed the point of what I was saying.I really don’t give a darn or not if the fish swallowed Jonah. that was not the point of the story and never was.And, um, I’m very familiar with Jonah- I’ve studied and taught it.I know the whole thing. Not everything is stated flatly not everything is literal-. St . augustine didn’t take the 6 days of creation literally- does that make him a heathen? Truth and fact can be mutually exclusive. I’ve stated this time and again. A parable is fiction and not fact yet it teaches, instructs and it tells the TRUTH! It isn’t factual .It does not drive people away from God- quite the opposite, it draws them in- so your analogy that equates fiction with untruth is wrong. The fact that you believe literally every single syllable in the Bible is exactly as stated and there aren’t metaphors,images or stories is just wrong- Church never taught that. Your opinion is just that- YOUR opinion. It has very little to do with the TRUTH of what the Church teaches.Having been involved for the last ten years, learning, teaching being around hierarchy ,with priests and nuns loyal and sound in doctrine- I hear on a daily basis and had to memorize Church documents pertaining to scripture.Nothing I have stated contradicts anything that I have been taught by these good people. I stand with what I have been taught.
Literalism doesn’t secure faith- quite the opposite is true… My class mainly comprises students who left a fundamentalist, literalist Bible study at a nearby church.The Bible is much more then what we see at first sight. It’s deeper, more layered with meaning. If it was totally literal would,scholars, saints and popes still be talking and debating over the text for 2000yrs.?The Jewish people have been studying scripture for 5000 yrs and still haven’t exhausted all the meaning, the nuances that exist therein. And it can’t be exhausted for the depth of scripture is a deep as the deepest trench- not puddle deep. Inexhaustible , beautiful, and full of truth but not literalistic.
you confuse truth and fact-as I’ve stated before fact does not= truth.Fictional stories also have layers of meaning hidden in their words- only by looking and studying line by line can you really grasp what Melville is really saying in "Moby ****"And the bible with it’s intensity of truth within it deserves to be looked at, studied ,respected and honored and not relegated to simplistic single layers of meaning. if we honor a novel by studying it line by line and wringing all we can from it -shouldn’t we do more the the Bible?
Nobody is removing anything from the Bible - just merely interpreting it.
 
Jesus_N_Cherie said:
When is the last time you tried to walk from one end of New York City…or London…or Rome to the other when there were no side walks to keep you from becoming drenched in mud holes? When did you do this while having to stop and work for your food and boarding? Three days? That doesn’t seem very long at all.

Not only that, but he was stopping and talking to people on the way. And he was doing all he could to convince them to believe him.
What, again, is difficult to believe about the three days?
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C’mon, Catch up, JnC. We’ve resolved that already.
 
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the Church says that in order to have an authentic understanding of Scripture we must believe that it is the inspired and inerrant Word of God. Whether or not the events in Tobit actually took place exactly as they are laid out is irrelevent *only if * the Church allows for the possibility that the book is not a historical record. And the Church does allow for that possibility. The Bible is not a history textbook and it’s wrong to treat it as such. Normal rules of historical/literary criticism do not apply.

But why even turn this into a debate? Does it really matter if it’s history or allegory? What matters is that we must consider what it teaches us to be the inspired Word of God, as if God Himself came down and spoke it to us. Which, in a way, He has.

Any conflicts over historical fact won’t-- can’t– affect the inerrency of the books. And in my experience, obsessively focusing on the historical accuracy or lack thereof is not only missing the point by a wide mark but can also be damaging to one’s faith.

/soapbox 😉
 
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the Church says that in order to have an authentic understanding of Scripture we must believe that it is the inspired and inerrant Word of God. Whether or not the events in Tobit actually took place exactly as they are laid out is irrelevent *only if * the Church allows for the possibility that the book is not a historical record. And the Church does allow for that possibility. The Bible is not a history textbook and it’s wrong to treat it as such. Normal rules of historical/literary criticism do not apply.

But why even turn this into a debate? Does it really matter if it’s history or allegory? What matters is that we must consider what it teaches us to be the inspired Word of God, as if God Himself came down and spoke it to us. Which, in a way, He has.

Any conflicts over historical fact won’t-- can’t– affect the inerrency of the books. And in my experience, obsessively focusing on the historical accuracy or lack thereof is not only missing the point by a wide mark but can also be damaging to one’s faith.

/soapbox 😉
 
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