Provoo Communion Validates Anglican Orders

[JonNC]

Getting back to apostolic succession, I came across photos of the Archbishop of Kenya [Lutheran] preaching in the chapel of St Timothy and St Titus at Concordia seminary [LCMS]. Is the LCMS also returning to episcopacy?

I don’t know if it is a particular priority at this time. I will say, however, that I suspect that for this to happen it would have to be through a partner church or synod who already has an established episcopacy. IOW, I don’t think we’d turn to, say, TEC simply to establish succession through their Anglican lines.

Jon

 

[Peter_J]

Maybe you should have addressed the issue: invitation. Instead of going off the tangent.

Or maybe you should keep replying to yourself…

Or maybe you have a cat with a bat in a hat?

I’m just trying to have a grown-up conversation.

 

[Michael57]

(emphasis added)

Please explain (as soon as possible if you don’t mind) how I left them out, given that I said "Catholics admit … ". The last time I checked, the term Catholics includes Chaldean, Melkite, Maronite, Latin, etc. Catholics



Perhaps you could explain who you include under the term “Catholic”, if you exclude Melkites and Chaldeans?

Perhaps I misunderstood, and perhaps you do as well? Constraints of the medium of the internets?

I agree that all those in communion with the Catholic Church whose Bishop is Pope Francis, may properly be called Catholic. There are many that seem to put their own special name to their tradition and sometimes this is confusing to those that are unfamiliar with them.

I had a class in world history where the professor discussed the fracturing of Christianity and the Schism between East and West. He was no theologian, and looking back on it, I’m not sure he was a scholar in history either (but that’s another story ). I had no special interest in religion at the time, and I accepted his teaching about the fractures between Rome and the Coptic Church, Rome and the Byzantine Church, and so on and so on. What he failed to teach was the effort at mending the Church and the reconciliation between the various traditions and Rome. I only learned about the unity of the Church and the various Holy Sees, when I attended RCIA.

I thought what you were saying was incomplete, but I see now that you were referring to the Western Catholic Tradition (PNCC) and the Eastern Catholic Tradition (Assyrian, Chaldean) and the use of the term “Catholic” (though , in my opinion, many others that are not “catholic” have hijacked that term; they not being in communion with the Catholic Church).

All that you said are in communion with Rome and hold their own tradition. They are Catholic.

Please forgive my error in reading and responding to your post. I apologize for the error.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I’m just trying to have a grown-up conversation.

Staying on subject would be a great starting point.

 

[Stephen168]

So, if I am invited by the parish pastor/ monsignor/ padre to take holy communion, I should decline?

Yes

So the flesh and blood Catholics in my world should take back their invitation including the retreats with religious monks/ nuns of Catholic communities where it was expected we all commune together?

Yes

I hate to be the messenger of another world where Catholic, Anglican and Lutheran do pray Mass together.

Pray together; yes. Communion together; no.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Yes

Yes

Pray together; yes. Communion together; no.

That was a rhetorical question. When invited by the celebrant to participate in Mass with my family, I will take holy communion. But thank you for giving your own opinion.

 

[Michael57]

That was a rhetorical question. When invited by the celebrant to participate in Mass with my family, I will take holy communion. But thank you for giving your own opinion.

Then it seems that you do not love your neighbor. You have been shown the teaching of the Catholic Church, you have been shown the scriptures.

I will pray for you, and bid you Adieu. I believe that you are deeply in error on this, but that is between you and God, may He give you grace to see this as others do.

And may He forgive us all if we have in any way seemed uncharitable to you. I know that was not my intent in these posts.

I see now that you do not care for the teachings of the Catholic Church as enumerated in the CCC. I regret that my explanation was inadequate to reach you and gain a mutual understanding.

My hope is that someday you will come to know the truth about this, with God’s grace, and that you will realize the scandal that you are engaging in when you advocate things here that are clearly not in accord with the Catholic Church. You say “We are all children of Francis” and yet you do not “Honor thy Father”, for you ignore the Catholic instruction on the Eucharist.

Forgive my inadequacy in ability to explain in such a way as to make you understand the Catholic understanding of the Holy Eucharist, which I believe from my reading of the CCC, you abuse if you do as you so post here.

Perhaps by your improperly and illicitly taking of the Holy Eucharist at Catholic Mass, you may be healed of what appears to be an obstinate refusal to understand Catholic Doctrine and Teaching. But I also fear for your soul.

In this matter I appeal to St. Joseph:

We come to you, O blessed Joseph, in our distress. Having sought the aid of your most blessed spouse, we now confidently implore your assistance also.

We humbly beg that, mindful of the affection which bound you to the Immaculate Virgin Mother of God, and of the fatherly love with which you cherished the Child Jesus,
you will lovingly watch over the heritage which Jesus Christ purchased with His blood,
and by your powerful intercession help us in our urgent need.

Prudent guardian of the Holy Family, protect the chosen people of Jesus Christ;
drive far from us, most loving father, all error and corrupting sin.

From your place in heaven, most powerful protector, graciously come to our aid
in this conflict with the powers of darkness, and as of old you delivered the Child Jesus
from danger of death, so now defend the holy Church from the snares of the enemy
and from all adversity.

Extend to each one of us your continual protection, that, led on by your example,
and borne up by your strength, we may be able to live and die in holiness
and obtain everlasting happiness in heaven.

This I pray for all who post here and who engage each other here. That we love each other as Christ so loved us.

Amen.

 

[JonNC]

.

Forgive my inadequacy in ability to explain in such a way as to make you understand the Catholic understanding of the Holy Eucharist, which I believe from my reading of the CCC, you abuse if you do as you so post here.

I don’t believe you have in any way been inadequate in explaining this.

Jon

 

[Stephen168]

That was a rhetorical question. When invited by the celebrant to participate in Mass with my family, I will take holy communion. But thank you for giving your own opinion.

If you are at a Catholic Mass and the celebrant is a Catholic Priest and he invites you to take the Eucharist knowing you are not in fact in communion with the Church (protestant) then he is wrong to invite you and you are wrong to receive. He would not be the first priest to violate the teachings of the Catholic Church.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

That was a rhetorical question. When invited by the celebrant to participate in Mass with my family, I will take holy communion. But thank you for giving your own opinion.

Even I, who am Catholic, don’t take communion because I abide by the standards of the Catholic Church (Annulment). And I eagerly wait for the day that I am able to receive the Blessed Body and Blood of our Lord. Not only is it worth the wait, but I trust my soul to Him.

Christ 1st Blessing in the Beatitudes is: “Blessed are the poor in spirit (humble), for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven”.

Twice in Scriptures we see a warning to pride:

James 4:6 But he gives more grace; therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

1 Peter 5:5 Likewise you that are younger be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

I hope you don’t mean what you posted and that you just did it out of anger.

 

[Michael57]

I don’t believe you have in any way been inadequate in explaining this.

Jon

That is most gracious of you to say. The result is still the same, though I wish it were different. :nope:

Only Christ’s Light can illuminate the soul of the obstinate sinner, and even the scribes and Pharisees could not see Jesus as Christ for their eyes were blind to Him. Some repented their error and many did not. I think some people make a god of their own understanding, as did the Gnostics of old, thinking that they have a secret knowledge or unique and special understanding only given them. They take pride in it.

I take no pride in this. I am saddened by it. I know why some, on hearing error and scandalous things would plug their ears and run away, or tear their cloaks and heap ashes on themselves. It feels awful. :bighanky:

:sad_bye:

 

[aidanbradypop]

That was a rhetorical question. When invited by the celebrant to participate in Mass with my family, I will take holy communion. But thank you for giving your own opinion.

I have been silent for the majority of the day. I cannot for the life of me understand why a Lutheran in the ELCA would want to communion in a Catholic Church. You have heard by now the teachings of the Church from these fine posters and yet you defy such teachings because you seem to know more than the Church does. At first I was really upset. That anger has now turned to sadness for you and the priest(s) that did not protect the Blessed Sacrament.

I would love for you to give me the name of the Priest and diocese where this grave action is taking place so I may alert the bishop of such.

EC, I feel it necessary to respectfully cease any further communication with you or your threads. I could be wrong, but I feel you are solely here to further an agenda that I don’t believe in nor do I want any part of. I will most certainly keep you in my daily prayers.

 

[Ridgerunner]

A number of churches claim to be part of the Catholic Church, or at least some segments and individuals of them do. I was surprised once when a Methodist claimed it. But it was a kind of vague thing.

Something I really don’t understand is why some protestant individuals or groups concern themselves with apostolic succession at all. If one’s claim to validity of sacraments and orders is based on having once been part of the Catholic Church, then it seems inescapable to me that’s an acknowledgment of the exclusivity claims of the Catholic Church. If succession is essential, then the Catholic Church really was the Church founded by Christ. And if so, when and how did He sanction departures from it?

I am not a protestant, and I realize not all protestants are concerned about apostolic succession, but if I was a protestant, I really think I would be wanting to base my claim to legitimacy on something else. Many do.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I have commented several times on CAF about inter-communion but here goes again.

When one has friends who are Catholic priests [parishes and religious] the bond in Christ may be beyond what is typical. Several months ago, I posted an article of a Lutheran pastor who also both receives and offers Holy Communion with Roman Catholics. The practice, in my own experience is fairly widespread and am a little surprised that this information seems new to other posters.

As a seminarian at Concordia – Fort Wayne, fellow brothers and I made retreats at various religious communities, specifically St Augustine’s House, a Benedictine order of the Holy Cross and once at a Franciscan community I can’t recall the name. St Augustine’s in particular was considered an ecumenical resource for many Christians. The Mass was celebrated each day and those making retreats were welcomed to take holy Communion whether they be Lutheran, Anglican or Catholic. I also recall the tears of joy streaming down the face of a Franciscan priest who celebrated Mass for a group that included LCMS seminarians. Sometimes, faculty members were present.

My own extended family includes both LCMS and ELCA Lutherans and Roman Catholics. I am very fortunate to have so many devout Christian relatives active in the Church. Because of age and distance, I don’t attend family celebrations as much as I use to but have participated in several baptisms, first communions, confirmations, weddings, funerals, etc. In every case, the parish pastors knew me [as a Lutheran] and/or my family personally and extended eucharistic hospitality.

Here’s the one exception. When my father passed away the requiem Mass was celebrated in my parent’s home parish [LCMS]. This was the parish of my youth where I was exposed to great Catholic traditions. 50+ years ago, it was not common for a Lutheran church to use incense, the pastor chanting even the Our Father, etc. This is a wonderful evangelical catholic parish. But something very unfortunate occurred at my Dad’s funeral mass. The pastor had left the usual LCMS note in the bulletin where it asks for all non-Missouri Synod Lutherans to speak to the pastor before taking Holy Communion. All the Lutherans in my family ignored the caution since they regularly commune in any Lutheran parish. But, for the first time, my Catholic family members were faced with a dilemma; either take the sacrament as they have in previous occasions in ELCA parishes or not join the family at the altar rail.

After the funeral, this concern was discussed and hurt feelings were mended but the reality that as catholic Christians, we could not commune together on an very special day left many sad.

 

[Stephen168]

I have commented several times on CAF about inter-communion but here goes again.

When one has friends who are Catholic priests [parishes and religious] the bond in Christ may be beyond what is typical. Several months ago, I posted an article of a Lutheran pastor who also both receives and offers Holy Communion with Roman Catholics. The practice, in my own experience is fairly widespread and am a little surprised that this information seems new to other posters.

As a seminarian at Concordia – Fort Wayne, fellow brothers and I made retreats at various religious communities, specifically St Augustine’s House, a Benedictine order of the Holy Cross and once at a Franciscan community I can’t recall the name. St Augustine’s in particular was considered an ecumenical resource for many Christians. The Mass was celebrated each day and those making retreats were welcomed to take holy Communion whether they be Lutheran, Anglican or Catholic. I also recall the tears of joy streaming down the face of a Franciscan priest who celebrated Mass for a group that included LCMS seminarians. Sometimes, faculty members were present.

My own extended family includes both LCMS and ELCA Lutherans and Roman Catholics. I am very fortunate to have so many devout Christian relatives active in the Church. Because of age and distance, I don’t attend family celebrations as much as I use to but have participated in several baptisms, first communions, confirmations, weddings, funerals, etc. In every case, the parish pastors knew me [as a Lutheran] and/or my family personally and extended eucharistic hospitality.

Here’s the one exception. When my father passed away the requiem Mass was celebrated in my parent’s home parish [LCMS]. This was the parish of my youth where I was exposed to great catholic traditions. 50+ years ago, it was not common for a Lutheran church to use incense, the pastor chanting even the Our Father, etc. This is a wonderful evangelical catholic parish. But something very unfortunate occurred at my Dad’s funeral mass. The pastor had left the usual LCMS note in the bulletin where it asks for all non-Missouri Synod Lutherans to speak to the pastor before taking Holy Communion. All the Lutherans in my family ignored the caution since they regularly commune in any Lutheran parish. But, for the first time, my Catholic family members were faced with a dilemma; either take the sacrament as they have in previous occasions in ELCA parishes or not join the family at the altar rail.

After the funeral, this concern was discussed and hurt feelings were mended but the reality that as catholic Christians, we could not commune together on an very special day left many sad.

Nice story but it changes nothing. There is no inter-faith communion in the Catholic Church and you are wrong to receive.

 

[andrewstx]

Years ago when I was Episcopalian there was no Episcopal church for at least 50 miles.
I began going to mass at the Catholic parish without trying to go to Holy Communion.

After a few weeks I asked the pastor there if I could have Holy Communion, he said Il’l have to check.

He got permission from the bishop and began to give me communion. I since became Catholic, good evangelism!

It is possible if you go through the proper channels, and don’t “give yourself permission”.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Nice story but it changes nothing. There is no inter-faith communion in the Catholic Church and you are wrong to receive.

Your response begs the question why you would oppose something that your priest would welcome? Why would anyone bar the way to Christ to others? The concern for those on the closed communion position is that the person may not actually believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. That is all LCMS pastors inquire about and when told the individual is baptized and believes Christ is fully present in the Mass, they urged the person to partake of our Lord forgiveness in the holy sacrament.

I read someone’s comment about some posters being “more Catholic than the pope”. And actually to be quite contrary to eucharistic hospitality in spite of efforts by both Lutherans and Catholics to commune at the same altar on the 500th year of the Reformation in 2017.

How do you explain Benedict XVI giving Communion to Brother Roger Schutz, the protestant founder of Taize on April 8, 2005?

 

[Peter_J]

Hi all. I’ve been away from the forum for several hours, but I’ve caught up now.

I thought what you were saying was incomplete, but I see now that you were referring to the Western Catholic Tradition (PNCC) and the Eastern Catholic Tradition (Assyrian, Chaldean) and the use of the term “Catholic”

I don’t believe I said anything like that, but if it works for you, then more power to you I guess.

 

[Peter_J]

I have commented several times on CAF about inter-communion but here goes again.

When one has friends who are Catholic priests [parishes and religious] the bond in Christ may be beyond what is typical. Several months ago, I posted an article of a Lutheran pastor who also both receives and offers Holy Communion with Roman Catholics. The practice, in my own experience is fairly widespread and am a little surprised that this information seems new to other posters.

As a seminarian at Concordia – Fort Wayne, fellow brothers and I made retreats at various religious communities, specifically St Augustine’s House, a Benedictine order of the Holy Cross and once at a Franciscan community I can’t recall the name. St Augustine’s in particular was considered an ecumenical resource for many Christians. The Mass was celebrated each day and those making retreats were welcomed to take holy Communion whether they be Lutheran, Anglican or Catholic. I also recall the tears of joy streaming down the face of a Franciscan priest who celebrated Mass for a group that included LCMS seminarians. Sometimes, faculty members were present.

My own extended family includes both LCMS and ELCA Lutherans and Roman Catholics. I am very fortunate to have so many devout Christian relatives active in the Church. Because of age and distance, I don’t attend family celebrations as much as I use to but have participated in several baptisms, first communions, confirmations, weddings, funerals, etc. In every case, the parish pastors knew me [as a Lutheran] and/or my family personally and extended eucharistic hospitality.

Here’s the one exception. When my father passed away the requiem Mass was celebrated in my parent’s home parish [LCMS]. This was the parish of my youth where I was exposed to great Catholic traditions. 50+ years ago, it was not common for a Lutheran church to use incense, the pastor chanting even the Our Father, etc. This is a wonderful evangelical catholic parish. But something very unfortunate occurred at my Dad’s funeral mass. The pastor had left the usual LCMS note in the bulletin where it asks for all non-Missouri Synod Lutherans to speak to the pastor before taking Holy Communion. All the Lutherans in my family ignored the caution since they regularly commune in any Lutheran parish. But, for the first time, my Catholic family members were faced with a dilemma; either take the sacrament as they have in previous occasions in ELCA parishes or not join the family at the altar rail.

After the funeral, this concern was discussed and hurt feelings were mended but the reality that as catholic Christians, we could not commune together on an very special day left many sad.

This is all pretty familiar because I have, numerous times, heard Catholics use similar arguments to try to convince Orthodox to intercommune with us. (When that happens, in my experience, the Orthodox generally don’t buy it … and to be honest I don’t think I buy what you’re saying here. )

 

[Peter_J]

How do you explain Benedict XVI giving Communion to Brother Roger Schutz, the protestant founder of Taize on April 8, 2005?

I don’t think there’s any need to explain it, since I don’t claim that there cannot be exceptional circumstances.