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Michael57
Guest
Yeah, well, I was in a hurry to get to Mass, and my fingers just went into autopilot…Good point. “I will pray for all three” was, in fact, a slightly odd statement.
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Michael57
Guest
Not sure what you are citing as my “inaccurate” assertion. The position of Lutheran and Anglican churches with notable exceptions * view homosexuality as “moral” behavior.
There is, of-course, individual freedom to disagree yet the Church ordains and marries gay Christians.*
It is inaccurate to portray, as if in complete agreement, when the document cited shows nothing of the kind.
Did you even read it before you posted it? Or did you just read what agreed with your private opinions?
I’ve read it, and from what you post, I don’t think you have either read or understand the document that you cited.
The document itself said that there were a wide varieties of opinion about the subject of homosexuality within ELCA, let alone the decision at the corporate level to ordain those that many within ELCA have strong objection to as a policy.
Then there is the issue of ordination of women.
Your position does not seem to be supported by the things that you quote to support it or the document you cite.
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
It’s monumental only if you try to deconstruct Scriptures enough to make it say whatever it is you want it to say.
It’s pretty simple:
*Leviticus 20:13
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them.
Romans 1:18-32
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
The Guilt of Mankind
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; 21 for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error.
28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. 29 They were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God’s decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral,[a] nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,**[c] 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
1 Timothy 1:8-10
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
8 Now we know that the law is good, if any one uses it lawfully, 9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 immoral persons, sodomites, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,
Jude 1:7
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
7 just as Sodom and Gomor′rah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.***
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aidanbradypop
Guest
It’s monumental only if you try to deconstruct Scriptures enough to make it say whatever it is you want it to say.
It’s pretty simple:
*Leviticus 20:13
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them.
Romans 1:18-32
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
The Guilt of Mankind
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; 21 for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error.
28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. 29 They were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God’s decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral,[a] nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,**[c] 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
1 Timothy 1:8-10
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
8 Now we know that the law is good, if any one uses it lawfully, 9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 immoral persons, sodomites, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,
Jude 1:7
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
7 just as Sodom and Gomor′rah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.***
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aidanbradypop
Guest
How can there be such communions when each faith can teach whatever they wish about Scripture?
Generally speaking from my own experience in the ELCA, when there is a wide variety of opinions about an issue, one can rest assured that the only opinion that really matters is the opinion that represents the modernist, liberal side of the topic.It is inaccurate to portray, as if in complete agreement, when the document cited shows nothing of the kind.
Did you even read it before you posted it? Or did you just read what agreed with your private opinions?
I’ve read it, and from what you post, I don’t think you have either read or understand the document that you cited.
The document itself said that there were a wide varieties of opinion about the subject of homosexuality within ELCA, let alone the decision at the corporate level to ordain those that many within ELCA have strong objection to as a policy.
Then there is the issue of ordination of women.
Your position does not seem to be supported by the things that you quote to support it or the document you cite.
Jon
It’s monumental only if you try to deconstruct Scriptures enough to make it say whatever it is you want it to say.
It’s pretty simple:
*Leviticus 20:13
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them.
Romans 1:18-32
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
The Guilt of Mankind
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; 21 for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error.
28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. 29 They were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God’s decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral,[a] nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,**[c] 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
1 Timothy 1:8-10
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
8 Now we know that the law is good, if any one uses it lawfully, 9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 immoral persons, sodomites, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,
Jude 1:7
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
7 just as Sodom and Gomor′rah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.***
Yeah, but that’s the opinion of an ancient Hebrew culture. It isn’t really intended for our modern, enlightened culture. You see, we just know better.
Jon
Dustin,How can there be such communions when each faith can teach whatever they wish about Scripture?
Any questions why theLCMS is not in communion with the ELCA?
Jon
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EvangelCatholic
Guest
What you know of me, would I be welcome at holy altar in your parish?
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aidanbradypop
Guest
ummmm…
Nope
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pablope
Guest
You certainly are welcome to attend mass at any catholic parish…just do not go up and receive the Eucharist until you are in full communion with the Holy See.
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EvangelCatholic
Guest
So, if I am invited by the parish pastor/ monsignor/ padre to take holy communion, I should decline?
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Peter_J
Guest
Well, I don’t doubt that sometimes happens, but it really shouldn’t since he would be going against Catholic policy.So, if I am invited by the parish pastor/ monsignor/ padre to take holy communion, I should decline?
In the same way, it sometimes happens that an Orthodox priest will offer communion to a Catholic, but that is generally against Orthodox policy.
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
Why should they invite you if you are not Catholic?So, if I am invited by the parish pastor/ monsignor/ padre to take holy communion, I should decline?
See this article:
ewtn.com/expert/answers/intercommunion.htm
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EvangelCatholic
Guest
I don’t I think I live in a totally isolated universe where family weddings, baptisms, 1st Communion, requiem, etc cut across Catholic & Lutheran lines. The family often sit together in several pews or in a side chapel. We are greeted and encouraged to come forward in Mass. Cursillos, retreats in Catholic & Anglican religious communities always include taking holy communion.
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pablope
Guest
Absolutely…for the priest or monsignor may not be aware there is a non-Catholic attending. Their invite is geared towards catholics…not non-Catholics.So, if I am invited by the parish pastor/ monsignor/ padre to take holy communion, I should decline?
Let me ask you…would you typically see a non-Catholic attending a Sunday Mass?
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pablope
Guest
Here is another question EC:So, if I am invited by the parish pastor/ monsignor/ padre to take holy communion, I should decline?
If you told the mosignor or parish priest you are not Catholic, and believed in gay marriage and the like…do you think they would still invite you to receive the Eucharist?
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Michael57
Guest
I visited the Catholic Church often before I became Catholic through RCIA, even though I referred to myself as “Catholic” and held the idea that the teachings and doctrine of the Church were True.So, if I am invited by the parish pastor/ monsignor/ padre to take holy communion, I should decline?
Not once did I take communion, even when no one was there that knew me. I understood the Catholic requirements as shown in the CCC, and in the missalettes (toward the front there was instruction about it for non-Catholic visitors). Did I understand why? No, not like I do now, but still I chose not to give offense. “Love thy neighbor.”
Any Catholic priest, monsignor, or “padre” (?), should know about these prohibitions and should not usurp the Bishop’s authority or the teaching of the Catholic Church which is clearly written and explained for those with an interest in the subject. Unless they believe a doctrine that is not in accordance with their Church, which seems to fit the idea of real heresy in this case, for that is a heretical position in opposition to the Church, from my understanding of the CCC, and Canon law. Such is the case with some.
It is possible that those Catholics observing this happening with knowledge of the circumstances could complain to Church Authority, which might lead to disciplinary action against the erring clergy in question. What you describe is scandalous of those that offer it, for they are not consistent with the CCC.
I have, since entering into full communion with the Church, witnessed abuses of the Eucharist, and attempted abuses of the Eucharist. The former usually out of ignorance and not malice, the latter usually prevented by extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist, alert ushers, and clergy that carefully guard the Sacred Host from abuse and misuse.
You, if memory serves from your other posts in CAF, claim to have gone through a Lutheran Seminary, and have family members that are Catholic that you visit, and whom with you attend Catholic Mass. Sounds great.
If you did not know before about the Catholic prohibitions on receiving the Eucharist, then you should now, and for you to take communion with this knowledge, we believe is to eat and drink damnation upon yourself. We do not wish that.
That is why so many here have warned you about it, and have questioned your motives about saying the things you say. Including your fellow Lutherans.
I don’t think it’s a novel or unique idea of yours, for you’ve even posted that you have seemingly little regard for this teaching and you feel it is supported by those who think as you, no one can change that, it’s a matter of conscience.
But I do think that when you take communion in a Church that YOU DON"T AGREE WITH, then you have strange ideas about what a faith life is when compared to my understanding and the teachings of my faith in the Catholic Church. Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself.
Don’t scandalize others at Mass by partaking in something that causes scandal, like taking the Eucharist when you clearly shouldn’t. Love you neighbor.
I have no doubt that there are those that are scandalized by your taking Catholic communion, when you are clearly not agreeing with the Catholic Church, I believe you are creating harm to them that you do not understand.
Frankly, I am somewhat scandalized by what you seem to cheerfully post here about non-Catholics taking the Eucharist when not in communion of faith, ordination of homosexuals who are not living in a chaste and moral lifestyle, and the ordination and elevation of women in as “priests” and “bishops”. To any Catholic, well formed in their faith, these are all anathema, illicit, and strictly forbidden. Still, I forgive you and do not wish harm to come to you by your action of taking the Eucharist in error at Catholic Mass.
I could understand if you were simply untutored, but you attended seminary, right? I find it a little hard to believe that you are doing these things with anything but a motive to impose what you think is “right” upon a Church that clearly says the things you advocate for are strange teachings that do not comply with either Sacred Scripture or Sacred Tradition. You don’t have the authority to decide that for us, and neither does any laity or priest that invites or allows illicit reception of the Host during the Liturgy of the Eucharist. It’s a Sacrament of the Church, one of seven that we hold dear. Or do you feel entitled to take it? Justified perhaps?
The Magisterium does not support these novel ideas, and the Scriptures reject them as well, unless, of course they have been stretched and warped into some new form of teaching that was never intended, much like the strange teachings of the Gnostics from the very beginning. People haven’t changed much in the past 6,000 years or so.
You should refrain from taking the Eucharist in Catholic Mass until you have completed RCIA and have been received into full communion with the Catholic Church.
That is the norm for those outside the faith to enter into communion of the faith of the Catholic Church.
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
You are being a bit obsessive compulsive about Catholic communion. Please don’t eat and drink judgement upon yourself.
*Partaking of the Supper Unworthily
1 Corinthians 11:27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.*
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EvangelCatholic
Guest
So the flesh and blood Catholics in my world should take back their invitation including the retreats with religious monks/ nuns of Catholic communities where it was expected we all commune together?
I hate to be the messenger of another world where Catholic, Anglican and Lutheran do pray Mass together.
I hate to be the messenger of another world where Catholic, Anglican and Lutheran do pray Mass together.
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